[NSP] Re: Re-Images reversed or not

[colin]

Off-topic but see here
http://www.marquise.de/en/themes/linksrechts.shtml

Colin Hill
- Original Message - 
From: "Richard York" 

To: "NSP group" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:05 PM
Subject: [NSP] Re-Images reversed or not




Dunno about ladies, but I believe that gents have the buttons arranged 
so the coat/whatever hangs allowing you to be able to draw a sword - 
kept on the left - with the right hand.
Or is this one of those moments when the bells & Klaxons go off as I 
present yet another urban myth?
(It's also why a gent stands with lady on his right in dances, so as not 
to accidentally amputate, or at least annoy, lower feminine portions 
with a carelessly swinging sword)

Best wishes,
Richard.

colin wrote:
Gosh, some interesting points here today.
Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men 
and women originated?
I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both 
reversed.
This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the 
hurdy gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed 
:0  Unless it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread.

Colin Hill
- Original Message - From: "Dave S" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM
Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not




I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and 
waistcoats ( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the 
image is true or not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the 
right.


good spotting

Dave Singleton



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[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Bill Telfer]

Ref mistakes in pictorial depictions of pipers . As someone mentioned
earlier ''There are also examples in Hugh Cheape's recent book about
bagpipes.''

I haven't read Hugh Cheape's book but quite a few years ago he had an
article published in the LBPS magazine, Common Stock highlighting the many
examples of errors made by artists, lithographers, printers etc so I expect
the new book will further amplify this. Few pipers ''choose'' to play with
the bag under the right arm. And   note that the vast majority of people who
ride a bicycle mount and dismount and, especially, when walking along
pushing the bike beside them do so on the left. (Maybe its the same with
horse-riders?). Anyway do we know why this is the ''natural'' way to do it?
Bill




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[NSP] Re-Images reversed or not

[Richard York]

Dunno about ladies, but I believe that gents have the buttons arranged 
so the coat/whatever hangs allowing you to be able to draw a sword - 
kept on the left - with the right hand.
Or is this one of those moments when the bells & Klaxons go off as I 
present yet another urban myth?
(It's also why a gent stands with lady on his right in dances, so as not 
to accidentally amputate, or at least annoy, lower feminine portions 
with a carelessly swinging sword)

Best wishes,
Richard.

colin wrote:
Gosh, some interesting points here today.
Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men 
and women originated?
I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both 
reversed.
This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the 
hurdy gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed 
:0  Unless it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread.

Colin Hill
- Original Message - From: "Dave S" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM
Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not




I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and 
waistcoats ( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the 
image is true or not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the 
right.


good spotting

Dave Singleton



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[Matt Seattle]

On 1/14/09, Barry Say  wrote:

> Personally, I think it would be a good idea if information such as
> you and others have assembled in the notes to GNTB and other
> publications. Could be arranged in a computer readable form
> especially if other researchers could then add to the database as
> scholarship develops.

It's a great idea Barry but I'm not volunteering to run it. There IS
already something like it in Andrew Kuntz's Fiddler's Companion site,
but when I've sent him info I've had no acknowledgement. The quibble I
have with his site is that much is quoted which is from unreliable
sources (e.g. NM) but it's still a great first call if you're prepared
to follow leads, and it's obviously the result of a phenomenal amount
of work.

> Your notes indicate a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum Thomas
> Wilson's Companion to the Ballroom 1816. Can you confirm/emphasise
> that this is not Jimmy Allan?

Confirmed and emphasised - I would have noticed..!

> If the Peacock version is an outlier then perhaps it should be
> considered the 'authentic' NSP version from the beginning of the 19th
> century.

It is that, but it's not free of typos, and also needs the (then
unavailable) low Fnat to really accommodate the tune.

> Then the new version becomes part of the Northumbrian cultural
> heritage.

Certainly that's the case with Cuckold, Sir John Fenwick and Newmarket
Races (Fenwick O Bywell), to mention just three that spring quickly to
the fingers.



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[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[Ian Lawther]

Among old Cape Breton Scottish pipers there seems to have been no set 
side on which to play the pipes and photos show both left and right 
shouldered pipers. Some also played with hands reversed such as the late 
Alex Currie who had started as a piper who played with the bag under teh 
right arm but was forced to change during military service. He did not 
however change his hand positions. The picture is of him in later life

http://www.clancurrie.com/images/pictures/press/2007_06june08/Alex-Curry.jpg

Ian


christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote:
< Could he be left handed or is the print 
  

backwards, I wonder.




In fact the whole thing is left-handed so either of the above explanations are 
possible.
More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale 
Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand 
on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR.
chirs
N���讇߶��+-�祊�b��+��b�v���i��0��j�f��ayۿ�?��^i٢��u�atml=




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[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Philip Gruar]

from Paul


  a German violinist who had had an
  accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play
  "left-handed".


And of course the Beatles presented a well balanced symetrical image to the 
world - John and the left-handed Paul either side of the mike. 





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[NSP] Drunk in charge of a keyboard (was "Oops typos")

[Paul Gretton]

Like Barry, I seem to have been celebrating TGIF 48 hours too early. 
For "But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the
bag under the left arm."

please read

"But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag
under the right arm."

Cheers,

Paul Gretton


-Original Message-
From: Barry Say [mailto:barr...@nspipes.co.uk] 
Sent: 14 January 2009 17:39
To: Nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Oops typos

For 
Reel of Tullochgoram Thomas Wilson's 
read 
Reel of Tullochgoram in Thomas Wilson's
For unch read bunch
For tases read tastes

Sorry Folks, not good enough.
(Slaps own wrist and removes egg from face)

Barry



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[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[Paul Gretton]

There were certainly engravers who got it wrong (perhaps as a result of the
system of mirrors that they may have used), but the vast majority were
professionals who were well aware that the ultimate product would be a
mirror image of what was on the plate.

Cheers,

Paul Gretton

-Original Message-
From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com [mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com] 
Sent: 14 January 2009 12:18
To: hil...@yahoo.com
Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

   Printing does give a mirror image, so unless the artist flips it in his
   head, that's what you get.



   John

   --


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[NSP] Prints of pipers

[Paul Gretton]

   I have a large collection (= hundreds) of original prints of pipers (of
   all kinds) going back to the 15th century - OK, I'll admit that I've
   only got a single one from the 15^th century! ;-)  -  and thousand of
   illustrations of other (pre-classical) wind instruments.


   Pipers with the bag under the right arm are perfectly "normal",
   certainly until well into the 19^th century. The standard explanation
   for "bag under the left arm" becoming standard is that with the rise of
   GHB pipe bands it was inconvenient for marching if all the pipers
   didn't hold the bag on the same side. But even today, there are
   numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag under the left arm.


   The great John Burgess was ambidextrous and is supposed to have psyched
   out the opposition in the warm-up room before competitions by playing
   just as brilliantly with his right hand on top as the normal way.


   As regards  pre-classical wind instruments in general, playing with the
   right hand uppermost was so common - at least according to the
   iconography - as to be basically just as "normal" as what we nowadays
   consider to be standard. It is only with the advent of complex key
   systems around 1800 that virtually everyone seems to have switched to
   the "left hand uppermost" way of playing. Obviously enough, it was
   economical for instrument makers to manufacture a standardised product.
   Even so, there are still makers who - if pressed - will provide
   "left-handed" versions of orchestral instruments. I have played in an
   orchestra with a "left-handed" clarinettist - it was a rather
   disorientating experience. We all looked at him, thinking "There's
   something wrong with that guy, but I can't quite say what." Even more
   disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an
   accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play
   "left-handed". (Just think what that involves form the neurological
   point of view!!!) That was SERIOUSLY disorientating - and his desk
   partner feared for her eyes!


   Cheers,


   Paul Gretton







   --


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[NSP] Re: Images of reverse or not

[tim rolls BT]

re buttons, from somewhere in the dark recesses, I seem to remember, 
gentlemen dressed themselves, ladies had a maid who would "do them up" 
standing face to face, (probably easier than reaching round from the back in 
some cases anyway).


Tim
- Original Message - 
From: "colin" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:05 PM
Subject: [NSP] Re: Images of reverse or not



Gosh, some interesting points here today.
Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men 
and

women originated?
I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both
reversed.
This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the hurdy
gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed :0 
Unless

it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread.
Colin Hill
- Original Message - 
From: "Dave S" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM
Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not




I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats
( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or
not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right.

good spotting

Dave Singleton



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html













No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1889 - Release Date: 1/12/2009 
8:18 PM

[NSP] Oops typos

[Barry Say]

For 
Reel of Tullochgoram Thomas Wilson's 
read 
Reel of Tullochgoram in Thomas Wilson's
For unch read bunch
For tases read tastes

Sorry Folks, not good enough.
(Slaps own wrist and removes egg from face)

Barry



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[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[Barry Say]

On 14 Jan 2009 at 13:24, Matt Seattle wrote:


> Song No 289 Scots Musical Museum (see Note in GNTB - this is what the
> Notes are there for, hint hint!).

Thanks Matt,

Personally, I think it would be a good idea if information such as 
you and others have assembled in the notes to GNTB and other 
publications. Could be arranged in a computer readable form 
especially if other researchers could then add to the database as 
scholarship develops.

Your notes indicate a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum Thomas 
Wilson's Companion to the Ballroom 1816. Can you confirm/emphasise 
that this is not Jimmy Allan?


>  In the song strain 1 is unrepeated
> (4 bars) and strain 2 has 8 bars (unrepeated), so pretty much as you
> say, though the 8 bars are not the same 4 played twice. The tune in
> SMM is fairly different from Peacock, which as I said is a relative
> outlier.

I have it. I will transcribe it.  

If the Peacock version is an outlier then perhaps it should be 
considered the 'authentic' NSP version from the beginning of the 19th 
century. I would suggest that when a unch of ne'er do well 
Northumbrians get their hands  on a gem of Scottish musicianship and 
butcher it to fit their own musical tases or peculiar instrument. 
Then the new version becomes part of the Northumbrian cultural 
heritage.  I doubt the Scots would want it back after what we did to 
it.

Barry

---

Q: Whats the difference between Northumbrian pipes and Scottish 
pipes.

A: Wors is a musical instrument.

(Sometimes attributed to Willy Taylor)

Also

"Scottish Music is just a small part of Northumbrian music."
and
"I dont play Irish music."

Same source



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[NSP] Re: Images of reverse or not

[colin]

Gosh, some interesting points here today.
Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men and 
women originated?
I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both 
reversed.
This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the hurdy 
gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed :0  Unless 
it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread.

Colin Hill
- Original Message - 
From: "Dave S" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM
Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not




I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats 
( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or 
not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right.


good spotting

Dave Singleton



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[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[colin]

Interesting.
I learned tin whistle by ear back in the 60's and play "left handed" - right 
hand nearest mouth purely because that seemed right for me (I am right 
handed).
When I got my first set of pipes (simple chanter), I played that "left 
handed" as well which caused some fun when I had my 7-key chanter made and 
couldn't figure out how to reach the keys.
There were few resources on playing the pipes back then (although Bill 
Hedworth loaned me a copy of a booklet which I forget the title of now - and 
which I had to copy longhand as it was out of print).
It took a while to reverse things (still play the whistle left handed 
though).
Am I right in thinking that my old friend (while he lived in Liverpool) the 
late Pete Rowley made his own left-handed set?

Colin Hill
- Original Message - 
From: "Philip Gruar" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:21 AM
Subject: [NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum




Chris wrote:


More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in 
Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper 
has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom 
IIRR.

chirs


Before standardised music lessons and printed tutors, wind instruments 
were quite often played right hand at the top, even in the world of art 
music. Where there is an off-set finger hole or a key for the bottom 
little finger, as on the recorder, two holes were drilled so the player 
could do it either way round and fill the redundant hole with wax, or the 
key was made with a "swallow-tail" touch.
More recently, it seems to have been quite a fashion for Irish flute 
players to hold the flute "the wrong way round" too - shows they are 
proper traditional musicians unaffected by classical training; of course 
you can do that with a wooden open-holed flute but not with an 
orchestral-style one.




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[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[Matt Seattle]

On 1/14/09, Barry Say  wrote:
> Are you aware of any historic publication which contains both the
> words and music.  The song has eight lines to a verse. I would tend
> to try and fit them to ABB of the tune, because lines 5-8 and 9-12
> contain many similar words, but without working it up I wouldn't like
> to stick my neck out.

Song No 289 Scots Musical Museum (see Note in GNTB - this is what the
Notes are there for, hint hint!). In the song strain 1 is unrepeated
(4 bars) and strain 2 has 8 bars (unrepeated), so pretty much as you
say, though the 8 bars are not the same 4 played twice. The tune in
SMM is fairly different from Peacock, which as I said is a relative
outlier.



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[NSP] Images of reverse or not

[Dave S]

I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats 
( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or 
not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right.


good spotting

Dave Singleton



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[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[GibbonsSoinne]

   Printing does give a mirror image, so unless the artist flips it in his
   head, that's what you get.



   John

   --


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[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[GibbonsSoinne]

   In a message dated 14/01/2009 00:24:15 GMT Standard Time,
   richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk writes:

 http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-579-620-C

   UP chanter all right, on the knee, but more like BP drones?

   The artist doesn't show what the tune looked like though!

   --


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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)

[rosspipes]

I think this business of expressing rhythms in terms of word s or word 
groupings is fraught with difficulty as it depends on the emphasis with which 
you say the words. Any actor will tell you it is possible to say words or 
groups of words in many different ways and although it may be fun to use words 
to express rhythms especially with children you need to be there to hear the 
teacher making the point as when it is written down it can be misleading.


The other point I want to make to non dancers is that the rant step can be 
appled in many situations in a basic 2/4 rhythm tune so that there is no 
defintive rant tune to search out. The recordings of the Cheviot Ranters and 
even the High Level Ranters contain a good number of tunes that can be ranted 
to so no need to look out the essential rant tune. If you want to look one out 
then start with Forster Charlton's, Harry's Rant or even Jimmy Allan.


If you want to use that ugly term 'gobstopper' to a tune then I suppose 
Tullochgorum or New Highland Laddie aka Rachael Rae and Tail Toddle aka Little 
Wot ye Wha's Coming would come under that description.


Left handed pipers have been around?from the very beginning with right hands 
being on top of the chanter whether left or right handed in relation to if the 
bag is under the left or right arm.


Colin R










-Original Message-

From: john_da...@hmco.com

To: Barry asic 2/4Say 

CC: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:07

Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)





   Barry Say wrote: "Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony 
Robb's point in the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as 
either a rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the 
appropriate rhythm when playing in competition." If we have determined 
anything in this thread it's that there are varying opinions, even among 
judges, as to what is a rant and what is a reel, and that the title of a 
tune doesn't necessarily tell you what it is.  There must be some tunes 
that can be played appropriately with the "to-MAto soup" rhythm (the light 
went on when it was pointed out where the down beat falls--thank you) or 
the "GOB stopper" rhythm.  If someone could point out a definitive 
recording of a rant in the discography of NSP music, I would greatly 
appreciate it. As for "Jamie Allen", it seems natural that the names of 
tunes and the way they are played would change over time, especially in !
 a musical culture where ear-playing is common.  Joe Hutton didn't play 
"The Cameron Highlanders", which is also known as "Henderson's March" (I
 think), the way Highland pipers do, but it's the same tune and it's still 
a march.  I once heard a busker near Seattle playing old time American 
music suddenly jump into "Jimmy Allen".  Unfortunately, I didn't get a 
chance to ask him where he learned it.  Perhaps it appears on an old A.L. 
Lloyd or Ewen MacColl recording. Once again, Barry, thanks for a great 
edition of the NPS Magazine.  I didn't have to play the usual drinking game 
to get through it, and the last few pages of email humor had me laughing 
out loud. all the best, John --  To get on or off this list see 
list information at  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



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--

[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[Barry Say]

On 14 Jan 2009 at 10:28, Matt Seattle wrote:

> Those words were written for the old tune of Tullochgorum (not 'Jimmy
> Allan'). 

Hi Matt,

Are you aware of any historic publication which contains both the 
words and music.  The song has eight lines to a verse. I would tend 
to try and fit them to ABB of the tune, because lines 5-8 and 9-12 
contain many similar words, but without working it up I wouldn't like 
to stick my neck out.

Those words to that tune seem to resonate with what I seem to 
remember of the infamous White Heather Club from my youth.

> The old tune survives in very many written versions, in both
> reel and strathspey arrangements. The reel versions are, as far as I
> can tell, older. Many reels were converted to strathspeys later, from
> the evidence I have seen, which contradicts the opinion which is
> reported (not necessarily held!) by Barry. Vickers No. 89 is a reel
> version for example. The old versions are all for fiddle, the tune had
> to be chopped a little to fit on 8-note chanters and even 9-note
> chanters.
> 
> Peacock's is the same (old) tune but is a different take on it.  IMO
> it's a rant - if Cuckold is, which may not be the consensus. There
> seems to have been a practice of taking reels and strathspeys and
> converting them into rants, many examples in Dixon and Peacock. At any
> rate they work as rants. (I prefer to read/write them with the longer
> note values of Dixon, but that's just a personal preference.)
> 

I will repeat (and amplify) an earlier statement I made.  

I claim no great expertise in naming or classifying rhythms. I play 
tunes as I hear them or find them written and in my own mind I 
classify them by their similarity to other tunes and rationalise the 
rhythms afterwards.

However, I am grateful to sucha as Anthony Robb and Matt for their 
attempts to describe these matters. I think they offer us a language 
for use in discussion even if it cannot express the full subtlety of 
the rhythms.

Barry



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[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[Matt Seattle]

Those words were written for the old tune of Tullochgorum (not 'Jimmy
Allan'). The old tune survives in very many written versions, in both
reel and strathspey arrangements. The reel versions are, as far as I
can tell, older. Many reels were converted to strathspeys later, from
the evidence I have seen, which contradicts the opinion which is
reported (not necessarily held!) by Barry. Vickers No. 89 is a reel
version for example. The old versions are all for fiddle, the tune had
to be chopped a little to fit on 8-note chanters and even 9-note
chanters.

Peacock's is the same (old) tune but is a different take on it.  IMO
it's a rant - if Cuckold is, which may not be the consensus. There
seems to have been a practice of taking reels and strathspeys and
converting them into rants, many examples in Dixon and Peacock. At any
rate they work as rants. (I prefer to read/write them with the longer
note values of Dixon, but that's just a personal preference.)



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[NSP] Re: Piper print

[richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hi Barry,

I find it interesting, as well, that in other David Allan pictures (e.
g.  the famous 'Highland Wedding at Blair Atholl' that is believed to 
show Neil Gow) the other instrumentalists are depicted playing in the 
normal way.  In that particular picture the bagpiper in the background 
is holding his bag under the right arm, but he's also shown to be 
drinking, so it doesn't necessarily depict him in playing position.

Hmmm!

Richard

>Original Message
>From: barr...@nspipes.co.uk
>Date: 14/01/2009 10:09 
>To: 
>Subj: [NSP] Re: Piper print
>
>On 14 Jan 2009 at 9:43, tim rolls BT wrote:
>
>> Hi Richard,
>> 
>> I haven't got my physics head on this morning, but would this be
>> anything to do with the fact that many painters used a sort of 
camera
>> obscura device to project the model onto a canvas, then did a quick
>> sketch round the projected image, I can never get my head round
>> whether the image just inverts vertically or swaps L-R as well.
>> 
>> Tim
>> - Original Message - 
>>
>
>Hi All,
>
>I had the same thought, but I came to the conclusion that image 
swaps 
>top to bottom and left to right leaving the image unchanged. If it 
>hadn't, all the paintings would have looked 'wrong' and clock faces 
>etc would have given the game away.
>
>--
>
>For those who have been taught symmetry operations.
>
>A mirror causes a mirror transformation (obvious).
>A pinhole is a centre of inversion.
>
>Thes are technical terms and I refuse to start a discussion on 
>Symmetry and Group theory on this list. It would beo off-topic.
>
>--
>
>Barry
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>




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[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[Philip Gruar]

Chris wrote:


More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in 
Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has 
his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR.

chirs


Before standardised music lessons and printed tutors, wind instruments were 
quite often played right hand at the top, even in the world of art music. 
Where there is an off-set finger hole or a key for the bottom little finger, 
as on the recorder, two holes were drilled so the player could do it either 
way round and fill the redundant hole with wax, or the key was made with a 
"swallow-tail" touch.
More recently, it seems to have been quite a fashion for Irish flute players 
to hold the flute "the wrong way round" too - shows they are proper 
traditional musicians unaffected by classical training; of course you can do 
that with a wooden open-holed flute but not with an orchestral-style one. 





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[NSP] Re: Piper print

[Barry Say]

On 14 Jan 2009 at 9:43, tim rolls BT wrote:

> Hi Richard,
> 
> I haven't got my physics head on this morning, but would this be
> anything to do with the fact that many painters used a sort of camera
> obscura device to project the model onto a canvas, then did a quick
> sketch round the projected image, I can never get my head round
> whether the image just inverts vertically or swaps L-R as well.
> 
> Tim
> - Original Message - 
>

Hi All,

I had the same thought, but I came to the conclusion that image swaps 
top to bottom and left to right leaving the image unchanged. If it 
hadn't, all the paintings would have looked 'wrong' and clock faces 
etc would have given the game away.

--

For those who have been taught symmetry operations.

A mirror causes a mirror transformation (obvious).
A pinhole is a centre of inversion.

Thes are technical terms and I refuse to start a discussion on 
Symmetry and Group theory on this list. It would beo off-topic.

--

Barry



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[NSP] Re: Reel of t

[Barry Say]

On 13 Jan 2009 at 17:52, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote:

> 
>Are you saying these words
> 
>'Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried ...'
> 
>fit the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' tune (they do) or the ex-strathspey
>that's found in Peacock (they fit that too).

In what follows I will refer to the tune found in Peacock as the 
strathspey. In this I am following the  opinion of Hamish Moore who 
opined that the vast majority of Scottish tunes derive from and 
relate to the Strathspey from. I am not qualified to judge his 
opinion, but I will use it as an excuse to adopt a convenient handle.

OK, I acknowledge the words will fit to both tunes, however I think 
they fit much more naturally to the strathspey version, where I feel 
the stress of the words fits more naturally with the stress of the 
tune.  This is a personal opinion and  I do not think it is possible 
to argue either way in an absolute way.

However:
1) The song is called Tullochgorum which matches the published title 
of the Strathspey.

2) We know of no record of a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum 
either in manuscript or published form.

3) It is possible that the unknown composer of The Reel of 
Tullochgorum composed a reel to 'fit' the words of the poem.

Even in modern times there are those who are careless recording the 
composer when  they write out music and I think this was even worse 
in former times when music was transmitted bye ear.

It would seem likely that the Reel of Tullochgorum was composed pre- 
1939 and I can come up with several reasons why the composer may have 
lost interest in his 'oeuvre' but I will not pursue this least I put 
my foot in it and get 'oeuf sur le visage'.

>The difference between gobstopper and tomato soup is obscured by >the 
> stress of the verse. 
>  

That could be seen as fortunate

Barry



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[NSP] Re: Piper print

[tim rolls BT]

Hi Richard,

I haven't got my physics head on this morning, but would this be anything to 
do with the fact that many painters used a sort of camera obscura device to 
project the model onto a canvas, then did a quick sketch round the projected 
image, I can never get my head round whether the image just inverts 
vertically or swaps L-R as well.


Tim
- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:37 AM
Subject: [NSP] Piper print



Hi Honor,

I'm no expert, but I think quite a lot of bagpipe iconography depicts
the bag under the right arm.  I have no idea whether or not that is due
to the artist (obviously it is in the case of original paintings) or
the printmaker reversing things.

You'll see another example in David Allan's painting "A Highland
Dance" at http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/online_az/4:
322/result/0/21917?initial=A&artistId=4483&artistName=David%
20Allan&submit=1

Here is shown two Scottish bagpipers playing for dancing, both having
the bag under their right arm.  It was painted c.1780.  There are also
examples in Hugh Cheape's recent book about bagpipes.

Richard



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8:18 PM

[NSP] Piper print

[richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hi Honor,

I'm no expert, but I think quite a lot of bagpipe iconography depicts 
the bag under the right arm.  I have no idea whether or not that is due 
to the artist (obviously it is in the case of original paintings) or 
the printmaker reversing things.

You'll see another example in David Allan's painting "A Highland 
Dance" at http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/online_az/4:
322/result/0/21917?initial=A&artistId=4483&artistName=David%
20Allan&submit=1

Here is shown two Scottish bagpipers playing for dancing, both having 
the bag under their right arm.  It was painted c.1780.  There are also 
examples in Hugh Cheape's recent book about bagpipes.

Richard



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[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[Christopher.Birch]

< Could he be left handed or is the print 
>backwards, I wonder.


In fact the whole thing is left-handed so either of the above explanations are 
possible.
More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale 
Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand 
on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR.
chirs
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