[NSP] Emails I've looked at.
Staccato: Not the space in between, it's the aEUR~pop' that comes out. I've learn't somat tonite. Ta. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
On 23 Jun 2011, at 12:01, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: > Fassbender offers some grudging compliment to Schoenberg So he does! The essential difference between Schoenberg and Proper Piping is that in his case it was a 12 tone row, whereas in the recent discussion (Proper Peacock Piping) it became an 8 tone row. Quite a heated row, at times. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
I've always thought of the spaces as being similar to playing something
like a glockenspiel/hammer dulcimer (with one hammer) or even a piano
(with one finger) where it's very difficult to play legato or slur notes
into one another. The fact I have six fingers and a thumb covering the
holes doesn't mean one can use them all at the same time (OK, you'd drop
the chanter but you get the idea). There has to be a slight delay as the
one finger is moved from one note to another - the use of several
fingers doesn't alter the fact that each finger must complete it's task
on it's own - and before the next. That's the way I have tried to make
sense of it anyway.
The use of a music program (or even a music box) shows just how poorly
the actual dots can sound without the "feel" of the musician even though
perfectly executed mechanically.
That's the bit they still haven't invented notation to show ("with
feeling" doesn't really help on a music score, does it). That's how I
understand the bit about the spaces between the notes anyway.
Fortunately I'm rubbish at reading music (I'm an "every good boy"
reader) so need, very much, to know the tune by ear before looking at
the dots and then the coded message in the dots becomes much clearer.
Colin Hill
On 23/06/2011 11:49, Francis Wood wrote:
On 23 Jun 2011, at 11:20, Julia Say wrote:
"The most important thing in a tune is the spaces between the notes, not the
notes
themselves."
This is also consistent with the musical principles of the composer Bruno Heinz
Jaja, demonstrated by the musicologists Dr Klauss Domgraf-Fassbaender and
Professor von der Vogelweide at the Hoffning Interplanetary Festival 1958
"Each note is dependant on the next".
"Each note is like a little polished diamond"
"There are three bars of silence . . . the second bar is in 3-4 and this gives to
the whole work a quasi-Viennese flavour"
Francis
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[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
"Before Jaja, music was all flagellated Cream" Fassbender offers some grudging compliment to Schoenberg but to show Jaja's superioriity added "Jaja has never written a note of harmony in his life!" "Before Music was witten on manuscript paper with a pen, but Jaja introduce the schlip-rule and now every good German composer is villing to put his spanner in the verks." Must transfer those to CD. Barry Quoting Francis Wood : This is also consistent with the musical principles of the composer Bruno Heinz Jaja, demonstrated by the musicologists Dr Klauss Domgraf-Fassbaender and Professor von der Vogelweide at the Hoffning Interplanetary Festival 1958 "Each note is dependant on the next". "Each note is like a little polished diamond" "There are three bars of silence . . . the second bar is in 3-4 and this gives to the whole work a quasi-Viennese flavour" "Before Jaja Music was all flagellated Cream" Fassbender offers some grudging compliment to Schoenberg but to show Jaja's superioriity added "Jaja has never written a note of Harmony in his life!" "Before Music was witten on manuscript paper with a pen, but Jaja introduce the schlip-rule and now every good German composer is villing to put his spanner in the verks." Must transfer those to CD. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
On 23 Jun 2011, Francis Wood wrote: > the composer Bruno Heinz > Jaja, demonstrated by the musicologists Dr Klauss Domgraf-Fassbaender and > Professor > von der Vogelweide at the Hoffning Interplanetary Festival 1958 > "There are three bars of silence . . . the second bar is in 3-4 and this > gives to > the whole work a quasi-Viennese flavour" Ah, yes. Somewhere I have that recording - it was one of the few outbreaks of humour I could share with either parent. Not to mention the quartets, for 3 vacuum cleaners and a floor polisher, or 4 tubas. Etc Etc Delightful. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
On 23 Jun 2011, at 11:20, Julia Say wrote: > "The most important thing in a tune is the spaces between the notes, not the > notes > themselves." This is also consistent with the musical principles of the composer Bruno Heinz Jaja, demonstrated by the musicologists Dr Klauss Domgraf-Fassbaender and Professor von der Vogelweide at the Hoffning Interplanetary Festival 1958 "Each note is dependant on the next". "Each note is like a little polished diamond" "There are three bars of silence . . . the second bar is in 3-4 and this gives to the whole work a quasi-Viennese flavour" Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
On 23 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: > Tom Clough wrote that notes should be > played their full length, but clearly separated, and Fenwick is consistent > with > this. "The most important thing in a tune is the spaces between the notes, not the notes themselves." paraphrase of Joe Hutton talking at the Rothbury course, either 1992 or 3, but can't remember if it was in a class or to me personally. Just to reinforce the point. I do think that Barry's description of a complete note including closing the hole is clearer than Mr Fenwick (although its complicated as written) AFAIK, J W Fenwick was regarded as the most competent player (one of the? - there were very few) in the circle of friends who actually ran the C19 NSPS, but I note that he didn't do competitions. Richard Mowat and Tom Clough (both winners c. 1895) were probably regarded as too young at this point (under 21) to be involved in running an organisation, and I suspect Henry Clough was too "unpolished" - to put it tactfully - to be acceptable to them. I agree with Matt on the tune selections. Sorry, haven't got time to research JWF right now - if anyone wants to go into it, I'll try and help. Hope this helps a bit. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
For most tunes - not Meggy's Foot though - and most players - (not early Chris Ormston, not Inky making a point) - notes last *almost* until the next one starts. A written crotchet will be at least a dotted quaver note and less than a semiq pause. Splitting every note into half note and half pause - staccatissimo - sounds weird unless done expertly. I thought this was Barry's point about using the word staccato? Remember Fenwick was writing a tutor for beginners. A tutor for beginners is thus right to attach the closing of a G to (just before) the opening of the next note, A in this case. Once someone has learned the closed fingering, a live teacher can start telling a player to concentrate more on the gaps between the notes, or that this top g needs to be played shorter. Tom Clough wrote that notes should be played their full length, but clearly separated, and Fenwick is consistent with this. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 23 June 2011 10:42 To: NSPlist Subject: [NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right? I don't have Fenwick's Tutor, but I do have, reprinted elsewhere, the tunes it included, and these, to my mind, show that he had contact with the evolving stem of the Tradition at the time - the first appearance of the longer Hol(e)y Ha'penny set, the Barrington Hornpipe, Coquetside, and Felton Lonnen. Although his Bonny Pit Lad is not the smallpipe version, the other tunes are IMO a good sampling of what we know as the Clough line, with 'big' and 'small' tunes represented. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
I don't have Fenwick's Tutor, but I do have, reprinted elsewhere, the tunes it included, and these, to my mind, show that he had contact with the evolving stem of the Tradition at the time - the first appearance of the longer Hol(e)y Ha'penny set, the Barrington Hornpipe, Coquetside, and Felton Lonnen. Although his Bonny Pit Lad is not the smallpipe version, the other tunes are IMO a good sampling of what we know as the Clough line, with 'big' and 'small' tunes represented. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
Hello Barry and others, Well this is certainly interesting. Firstly can anyone (i.e you, Julia!) throw any light on Fenwick & his background? > Was Mr. Fenwick right? I think he was, in the 1885 context of the aims of that tutor and the unfamiliarity of the instrument. > I would suggest a better description Yes, I agree that it is, being a fuller scientific description of what is required, and more suitable to the more sophisticated, experienced and knowledgeable reader, by which I mean any subscriber to the Dartmouth List! Scientific too, in that it has resulted not only from careful listening to proponents of a certain style but your electronic examination thereof. > Mr Fenwick's description seems to me to owe a lot to the style of playing > appropriate to open ended pipes such as GHB. I don't believe it is influenced by anything other than an attempt to explain in simpler (and less musical) terms than yours the basic principles of closed fingering. > Initially the gaps between the notes will be large, but with practise they > *will* come down to an appropriate length. I like the parallels drawn with the psychology of effective sports coaching. Concerning your remark above, there is much to discuss about what is appropriate. Playing Rothbury Hills in the style of Meggy's Foot might improve it a lot! I suppose after all, Fenwick did a reasonable job though there are factual inaccuracies and much needless repetition. As a member of the (very small) Northumbrian Small-Pipes Society of the time he may have been the best person to undertake this task. Francis Francis On 22 Jun 2011, at 22:56, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: > > In the instruction book published by the Northumbrian Smallpipes Society in > 1896, > Mr Fenwick wrote, > > 'The note G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole. To > produce A, replace the fourth finger on the hole, and raise the third finger. > The other notes are produced by closing and opening one hole at a time as > given in the scale.' > > It seems to me that there are some deficiencies in this description. If we > follow the instruction in the first sentence, we are left with a G sounding. > This will go on until we decide to play another note. In order to play that > other note we have to move two fingers in a coordinated fashion. > > I would suggest a better description as > > A note of G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole for > the length of time appropriate to the note and then replacing it. Other notes > are played in the same fashion either by lifting a finger or thumb to open a > tone-hole for the required duration and then replacing the finger or thumb or > by depressing a key for the appropriate length of time and then releasing it. > > The major difference is that every note has a length as well as a pitch, the > player is aware of the length of the note when he starts to play it, and the > note isn't complete until it has been stopped. > > Mr Fenwick's description seems to me to owe a lot to the style of playing > appropriate to open ended pipes such as GHB. Once the pipes are started, a > stream of sound emanates from the chanter and the player is engaged in > directing this to various pitches. It is a bit like operating a garden hose > with no access to the tap. You can direct where the water goes but you cannot > stop it. > > Conversely, with a closed end chanter NSP can produce distinct notes, and I > think this is the way the instrument is best approached. Once we know how to > play a G quaver, we can decide to play a G quaver without worrying about > where the note will end. Our training will kick in and the fourth finger will > descend at the appropriate time. we should imagine the whole of the note in > our head before playing it. > > We can decide to follow that G with an A and to do that we lift the third > finger at the appropriate time. and the fourth finger has already closed the > G hole. Initially the gaps between the notes will be large, but with practise > they *will* come down to an appropriate length. > > This description is my own but it owes much to detailed listening to > recordings of Chris Ormston, to practice methods described by Inky-Adrian and > discussions with other pipers who shall for now remain nameless. I feel that > there are parallels with the methods used by Sports psychologists and coaches > who encourage those they are teaching to break down the actions they require > into well defined segments, and to have a clear vision of the outcome they > wish to achieve before they start the action - we should 'think' the note > before we play it. > > Does this make any sort of sense? > > Barry > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
Hello Barry, That seems like a very fair and well thought out description of the state of the art it's clear to me, but then the mind can be like a parachute Dave S On 6/22/2011 11:56 PM, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: In the instruction book published by the Northumbrian Smallpipes Society in 1896, Mr Fenwick wrote, 'The note G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole. To produce A, replace the fourth finger on the hole, and raise the third finger. The other notes are produced by closing and opening one hole at a time as given in the scale.' It seems to me that there are some deficiencies in this description. If we follow the instruction in the first sentence, we are left with a G sounding. This will go on until we decide to play another note. In order to play that other note we have to move two fingers in a coordinated fashion. I would suggest a better description as A note of G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole for the length of time appropriate to the note and then replacing it. Other notes are played in the same fashion either by lifting a finger or thumb to open a tone-hole for the required duration and then replacing the finger or thumb or by depressing a key for the appropriate length of time and then releasing it. The major difference is that every note has a length as well as a pitch, the player is aware of the length of the note when he starts to play it, and the note isn't complete until it has been stopped. Mr Fenwick's description seems to me to owe a lot to the style of playing appropriate to open ended pipes such as GHB. Once the pipes are started, a stream of sound emanates from the chanter and the player is engaged in directing this to various pitches. It is a bit like operating a garden hose with no access to the tap. You can direct where the water goes but you cannot stop it. Conversely, with a closed end chanter NSP can produce distinct notes, and I think this is the way the instrument is best approached. Once we know how to play a G quaver, we can decide to play a G quaver without worrying about where the note will end. Our training will kick in and the fourth finger will descend at the appropriate time. we should imagine the whole of the note in our head before playing it. We can decide to follow that G with an A and to do that we lift the third finger at the appropriate time. and the fourth finger has already closed the G hole. Initially the gaps between the notes will be large, but with practise they *will* come down to an appropriate length. This description is my own but it owes much to detailed listening to recordings of Chris Ormston, to practice methods described by Inky-Adrian and discussions with other pipers who shall for now remain nameless. I feel that there are parallels with the methods used by Sports psychologists and coaches who encourage those they are teaching to break down the actions they require into well defined segments, and to have a clear vision of the outcome they wish to achieve before they start the action - we should 'think' the note before we play it. Does this make any sort of sense? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3719 - Release Date: 06/22/11
