[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
Anthony You just can't believe everything you read, even on FARNE or in the Clough mss! The attribution is definitely 'out there', and is, I believe, a case of 'iconic attraction'. Tunes become posthumously attached to the names of famous musicians who neither composed them, nor claimed to have done so. I was contracted to do some of the FARNE work and there were things I declined to do because I didn't have the knowledge. You can fill in the rest. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 7:49 PM, Anthony Robb [1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: Hello Folks I came across this on Farne, even if it's dodgy stuff it might explain the note in the Clough manuscript linking Morpeth Rant to Shield. The piece relates to a sound clip by John Armstrong of Carrick. Title: Shield's Hornpipe Also known as: Morpeth Rant, Morpeth's Hornpipe, Ivy Leaf Hornpipe, Jim Clarks' Hornpipe, Clark's Hornpipe Performer: John Armstrong, Composer: Shield, William (b.1749 d.1829 Although John Armstrong is best remembered as a musician, but he was also well known as a stick dresser and huntsman. He worked two large farms in Elsdon, near to the Army firing range. The Armstrong family claims an unbroken tradition of Northumbrian piping going back at least four generations. The Clough family visited the Armstrong family home at Raylees just after the First World War. It was here that John often played duets with Tom Clough. He also played with Billy Pigg. John owned a magnificent collection of pipe tunes, including original manuscripts by James Hill, Tom Clough and Robert Whinham. He provided many tunes for the Charlton Memorial Tune Book. A series of accidents to his hands, resulting in a stiffening of his fingers, forced John to concentrate on the fiddle in later years. He is featured on the Topic Album 'Bonny North Tyne' (12TS239) and was known to many amongst the older Northumbrian musicians as Carrick, a name taken from his dwelling place and a useful device to differentiate him from the many other John Armstrongs who live along the borders. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
Hello Matt I know what you mean but something has persuaded John Armstrong of C to call it Shield's. It is strange he should latch on to that as a staunch Northumbrian when Morpeth Rant would have claimed it as one of ours. A mystery indeed! Anthony --- On Thu, 14/7/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 14 July, 2011, 20:23 Anthony You just can't believe everything you read, even on FARNE or in the Clough mss! The attribution is definitely 'out there', and is, I believe, a case of 'iconic attraction'. Tunes become posthumously attached to the names of famous musicians who neither composed them, nor claimed to have done so. I was contracted to do some of the FARNE work and there were things I declined to do because I didn't have the knowledge. You can fill in the rest. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 7:49 PM, Anthony Robb [1][1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: Hello Folks I came across this on Farne, even if it's dodgy stuff it might explain the note in the Clough manuscript linking Morpeth Rant to Shield. The piece relates to a sound clip by John Armstrong of Carrick. Title: Shield's Hornpipe Also known as: Morpeth Rant, Morpeth's Hornpipe, Ivy Leaf Hornpipe, Jim Clarks' Hornpipe, Clark's Hornpipe Performer: John Armstrong, Composer: Shield, William (b.1749 d.1829 Although John Armstrong is best remembered as a musician, but he was also well known as a stick dresser and huntsman. He worked two large farms in Elsdon, near to the Army firing range. The Armstrong family claims an unbroken tradition of Northumbrian piping going back at least four generations. The Clough family visited the Armstrong family home at Raylees just after the First World War. It was here that John often played duets with Tom Clough. He also played with Billy Pigg. John owned a magnificent collection of pipe tunes, including original manuscripts by James Hill, Tom Clough and Robert Whinham. He provided many tunes for the Charlton Memorial Tune Book. A series of accidents to his hands, resulting in a stiffening of his fingers, forced John to concentrate on the fiddle in later years. He is featured on the Topic Album 'Bonny North Tyne' (12TS239) and was known to many amongst the older Northumbrian musicians as Carrick, a name taken from his dwelling place and a useful device to differentiate him from the many other John Armstrongs who live along the borders. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[3]anth...@robbpipes.com 2. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 14 July 2011 19:49 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Shield's H'pipe Hello Folks I came across this on Farne, even if it's dodgy stuff it might explain the note in the Clough manuscript linking Morpeth Rant to Shield. The piece relates to a sound clip by John Armstrong of Carrick. Title: Shield's Hornpipe Also known as: Morpeth Rant, Morpeth's Hornpipe, Ivy Leaf Hornpipe, Jim Clarks' Hornpipe, Clark's Hornpipe Performer: John Armstrong, Composer: Shield, William (b.1749 d.1829 Although John Armstrong is best remembered as a musician, but he was also well known as a stick dresser and huntsman. He worked two large farms in Elsdon, near to the Army firing range. The Armstrong family claims an unbroken tradition of Northumbrian piping going back at least four generations. The Clough family visited the Armstrong family home at Raylees just after the First World War. It was here that John often played duets with Tom Clough. He also played with Billy Pigg. John owned a magnificent collection of pipe tunes, including original manuscripts by James Hill, Tom Clough and Robert Whinham. He provided many tunes for the Charlton Memorial Tune Book. A series of accidents to his hands, resulting in a stiffening of his fingers, forced John to concentrate on the fiddle in later years. He is featured on the Topic Album 'Bonny North Tyne' (12TS239) and was known to many amongst the older Northumbrian musicians as Carrick, a name taken from his dwelling place and a useful device to differentiate him from the many other John Armstrongs who live along the borders. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
To make it absolutely clear, it was not I who attached the name Shield's to the soundclip. Whether the source - JA of C - gave it that title, I don't know. This is not impossible given the Clough connection. The FARNE Core Tunes article on Morpeth Rant (not my work) also gives the Shield attribution. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Gibbons, John [1]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John -- References 1. mailto:j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
I spent some time with John Armstrong c.1979/1980 playing tunes and going through his wonderful piles of mss. He was very kind and encouraging to a (then) young piper, and passed on some invaluable insights into how he played and what he thought about tunes. Unfortunately I don't have any record of playing the Morpeth Rant with him. I do remember that John was sometimes unsure of a tune from its title, but once the first notes were played, he knew exactly what it was. Similarly, the question 'How does it gan?' that Jimmy Little often asked when playing with Dishalagie was followed by an instant recall of the tune once it started. Best wishes Margaret -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 14 July 2011 22:04 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To make it absolutely clear, it was not I who attached the name Shield's to the soundclip. Whether the source - JA of C - gave it that title, I don't know. This is not impossible given the Clough connection. The FARNE Core Tunes article on Morpeth Rant (not my work) also gives the Shield attribution. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Gibbons, John [1]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John -- References 1. mailto:j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
Hello Both No, Matt it wasn't you it was Phil Ranson that did the original interview and recording. He was a librarian who did quite a bit of collecting. He lived near me when I lived in Wylam, he was at Hagg Bank a mile up the river and was a very down to earth Geordie lad. John A was an even more no nonsense man and player who impressed me deeply on the two or three occasions we met and had tunes together (Joe Hutton's and Archie Bertram's). I agree whith your main points but still claim a tenable stance in being puzzled by the whole thing. By the way the sound clip of John A playing is the perfect antidote to the 'hell for leather' approach so prevalent with most (but thankfully not all) youngsters at the moment. Anthony --- On Thu, 14/7/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 14 July, 2011, 22:03 To make it absolutely clear, it was not I who attached the name Shield's to the soundclip. Whether the source - JA of C - gave it that title, I don't know. This is not impossible given the Clough connection. The FARNE Core Tunes article on Morpeth Rant (not my work) also gives the Shield attribution. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Gibbons, John [1][1]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John -- References 1. mailto:[2]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 2. http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
