[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
Dear All, Here's a collage of the Reavely and Crawhall versions of 'Where have you been?', which we were discussing, with 5 strains - using Reavely's first 3 strains and continuing using patterns from Crawhall's 4th and 5th, which were inconsistent with Reavely as they stand. A more experienced editor composer might do better? It doesn't want to go much faster than 'Noble Squire Dacre' - think the words 'Randal my son?' in bar 2 of each strain Strain 5 works if you play the d's short. I would probably play strain 1 over again at the end. The tune certainly needs to be played more widely. John X:1 T:Where hast thou been all the night? M:6/8 R: Air K:G e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ Bcd|dgB c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ Bcd|dgf d2:| e|dgf dgB|dgB c2e|dgf dgB|dgf d2 e|dgf dgB|dgB c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ Bcd|dgf d2|| e|dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dB/c/d/B/ c2e|dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dgB c2 e|dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dB/c/d/B/ c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ Bcd|dgf d2|| e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|d/c/B/c/d/B/ c2 e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|dgf d2 e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|d/c/B/c/d/B/ c2 e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ Bcd|dgf d2|| e|dcB dcB|dGB c2e|dcB dcB|Ggf d2 e|dcB dcB|dGB c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ Bcd|dgf d2|| From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Gretton [i...@gretton-willems.com] Sent: 02 November 2010 10:25 To: 'Matt Seattle' Cc: 'NSP group' Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting! I haven't really been following this discussion but perhaps it's worth pointing out that parody can have the formal musical sense of incorporating music from one genre into another, or basing a piece on another piece. Used in that way, it doesn’t have to imply guying or spoofing the original. The clearest examples are the polyphonic parody masses of the Renaissance that are based on folk songs. The most popular tune was L'homme armé, which generated literally dozens of glorious parody masses in the 15th and 16th centuries by major composers like Dufay, Ockeghem and Josquin. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 02 November 2010 10:58 To: Gibbons, John Cc: Richard York; NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting! I see why you prefer the 3-strain Reavely version as more consistent, but the Crawhall strain 4 is worth having - perhaps better if tweaked to fit the others from Reavely. I should have another look in that case, thanks. I have been thinking about this, and Lord Randal, since the discussion started. The tune is obviously a good fit to the metre, but if this is right, then the tune is to be played andante, not as a jig. Yes, I think that thee 6/8 variation sets (in Peacock et al) are not (dance) jigs, though often based on them - e.g. Felton Lonnen, which exists in both forms. The idea of Billy Boy as a parody of Lord Randal had never occurred to me, but the worried mum and the emphasis on the girlfriend's culinary abilities are common to both. I think it was Bronson's (Trad Tunes of the Child Ballads) book which alerted me to this. I had it on loan so I can't check it now, but IIRC he said that the two songs (or versions of them) were of comparable age, and I got more the feeling of 'counterpart' than 'parody' from what he was saying. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
I see why you prefer the 3-strain Reavely version as more consistent, but the Crawhall strain 4 is worth having - perhaps better if tweaked to fit the others from Reavely. I should have another look in that case, thanks. I have been thinking about this, and Lord Randal, since the discussion started. The tune is obviously a good fit to the metre, but if this is right, then the tune is to be played andante, not as a jig. Yes, I think that thee 6/8 variation sets (in Peacock et al) are not (dance) jigs, though often based on them - e.g. Felton Lonnen, which exists in both forms. The idea of Billy Boy as a parody of Lord Randal had never occurred to me, but the worried mum and the emphasis on the girlfriend's culinary abilities are common to both. I think it was Bronson's (Trad Tunes of the Child Ballads) book which alerted me to this. I had it on loan so I can't check it now, but IIRC he said that the two songs (or versions of them) were of comparable age, and I got more the feeling of 'counterpart' than 'parody' from what he was saying. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
Where have you been all the night? she describes as a Scotch Tune. It's tempting to think she's mis-remembered the line in Billy Boy, See the Note in the recently published NPS edition of Bewicks Pipe Tunes, which has a tune of the title which is *not* Billy Boy Might also possibly apply to Lord Randal Then there's Moll Brook I presume that the other responses relate to the For he's a jolly good fellow tune - ? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
.. that's a cunning way of reminding me that while I still have your original yellow Bewick book, I ought to buy the new one too, Matt :-) I will order one anyway, but do you mean by this you think it's not Lord Randall either? (Sorry, being thick here - it'll probably be clearer once I own the book!) And yes, consensus evidence points firmly at Jolly Good Fellow for Moll Brook Marlborough. Best wishes, Richard. On 01/11/2010 11:28, Matt Seattle wrote: Where have you been all the night? she describes as a Scotch Tune. It's tempting to think she's mis-remembered the line in Billy Boy, See the Note in the recently published NPS edition of Bewicks Pipe Tunes, which has a tune of the title which is *not* Billy Boy Might also possibly apply to Lord Randal Then there's Moll Brook I presume that the other responses relate to the For he's a jolly good fellow tune - ? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
I've no idea whether it's got anything to do with Lord Randal. I was made aware, from my reading, of the idea that 'Billy Boy' and 'Lord Randal' are sort-of counterparts to each other, humorous and tragic, and both have relatively old antecedents. The Note in Bewick merely hints at this muddy area, it doesn't have answers. But there is a good tune included, and it fits the Randal words rather better than the Billy words. It's all a big muddy soup, and what does it all mean, I ask you, eh? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
On 1 Nov 2010, at 12:19, Gibbons, John wrote: I should get the new edition too... You should. And so should everyone else. Absolutely excellent! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
On 31 Oct 2010, at 16:13, Richard York wrote: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Hurdy gurdy has been used variously in the past to describe a number of very different instruments. I wonder whether cymbal is related to cimbalom (various spellings), the Eastern European dulcimer? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune hunt: OT but I hope interesting!
It's difficult to know. I don't want to hijack too much time from the pipes here, and am asking the hurdy gurdy group to share any views on this. There are arguments for and against both dulcimer gurdy as we know it, in the text. Thanks for the help, though! Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 18:28, Francis Wood wrote: On 31 Oct 2010, at 16:13, Richard York wrote: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Hurdy gurdy has been used variously in the past to describe a number of very d ifferent instruments. I wonder whether cymbal is related to cimbalom (various spellings), the East ern European dulcimer? Francis -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
