Re: [NTG-context] Maybe simply, i don't know

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Ursula Hermann 
17. Dezember 2015 um 16:34

Hello Hans, and so on!

When there are different headers and footers in a chapter:

1.header: this is me. I write this  in left and right pages.

Then comes a subsection in this chapter

1.1header: left side: this is my first chapter, right side : this is 
the second chapter.


What have I to do then



Can you send a minimal example for your problem.

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] strange output in math display mode

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Hans Hagen 
23. Dezember 2015 um 10:17
On 12/23/2015 3:19 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

So it it a TeX programming limitation.

The risk of leading to an exponential number of branches is addressed
by Knuth at the beginning of Chapter 17 of the TeXbook (p. 139):
"Mathematicians tend to \quote{overuse} \over when they first begin to
typeset their own work on a system like \TEX." ...

At one point, I went back to using \over rather than \frac as the later
was broken and gave no output. This has since been fixed, but I stayed
with \over as I find primary operators to be much more elegant syntax
than multiple argument macros. It is too bad that luatex does not
employ a better programming solution, as the use of \frac{}{} leads to
ugly mathematical source code.


Well, it is not impossible in mkiv do make something 1\alansover2 that 
adjusts itself to some settings (i could probably do it right now) but 
who will use it (apart from you) and who would document it then ..
Would this method allow fractions in the second form below with ÷ 
instead of \over?


\starttext

\startformula
1 = \frac{2}{3} + { 1 ÷ 3 }
\stopformula

\stoptext

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] strange output in math display mode

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/22/2015 8:24 PM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

Wolfgang,

Can you explain to us why it should be preferable for ConTeXt users to
employ \frac12 rather than the native TeX construction {1\over 2}?
I understand that the macro \frac does some additional trickery but the
two constructions should *always* yield identical results (when
keyed-in properly).

Of course, Donald Knuth disagrees with \frac from the point of view
of the aesthetics of the syntax.


Are you sure he disagrees? For instance \frac {12} {34} is less code 
than { {12} \over {34} } and all over the texbook (and web code) 
shortcuts are used. Afaik his idea of TeX is that users should do what 
they like best.


Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] inter-word space in bibliographies

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Alan Bowen 
17. Dezember 2015 um 18:06
The appended code is supposed to allow reduction of the inter-word 
spacing in my bibliographies but it does not. Adjusting the \spaceskip 
in the setups for [tightspace] does not seem to make any difference.


Any suggestions will be most welcome.


It works when you use the style key to set the \spaceskip value.

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] inter-word space in bibliographies

[Alan Bowen]

Thanks, Wolfgang. It does indeed!

Season’s Best,

Alan

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Alan Bowen 
> 17. Dezember 2015 um 18:06
> The appended code is supposed to allow reduction of the inter-word spacing
> in my bibliographies but it does not. Adjusting the \spaceskip in the
> setups for [tightspace] does not seem to make any difference.
>
> Any suggestions will be most welcome.
>
> It works when you use the style key to set the \spaceskip value.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
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> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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>
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>
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Re: [NTG-context] strange output in math display mode

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:52:22 +0100
Hans Hagen  wrote:

> > Of course, Donald Knuth disagrees with \frac from the point of view
> > of the aesthetics of the syntax.  
> 
> Are you sure he disagrees? For instance \frac {12} {34} is less code 
> than { {12} \over {34} } and all over the texbook (and web code) 
> shortcuts are used. Afaik his idea of TeX is that users should do
> what they like best.

The issue, which has been largely discussed elsewhere, is that what
Knuth had in mind is for the source code to be as readable as the
formatted result in some sense. I'm sure, Hans, that you agree with
this philosophy.

{12 \over 34} (no inner grouping should be necessary?) reads as we (or
a mathematician) would think, whereas \frac{12}{34} reads as a computer
programmer might think. This last construct is simply UGLY (maybe
"geeks" might disagree).

A computer program should have an elegant syntax, and the syntax should
not be dictated by the implementation but should be coherent with
itself. This is one of the attractions of lua as a language, for it is
quite elegant. Another choice of ours is MetaPost, which is quite
beautiful (much, much more than pgf/TiKz that it inspired), but perhaps
a bit too subtle and somewhat quirky for many users.

I believe that there is a certain lore around the amsmath/LaTeX
\frac{}{} that is not justified, nor should we really be promoting it.
If there is indeed some penalty in handling the primitives \over, etc.
in luatex, then this should eventually be fixed (but I do not believe,
nor do I know, that there is, in practice).

Alan

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[NTG-context] Maybe simply, i don't know

[Ursula Hermann]

Hello Hans, and so on!

 

When there are different headers and footers in a chapter: 

 

1.   header: this is me. I write this  in left and right pages. 

 

Then comes a subsection in this chapter

 

1.1   header: left side: this is my first chapter, right side : this is the
second chapter. 

 

What have I to do then

 

Uschi 

 

 

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Re: [NTG-context] strange output in math display mode

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/22/2015 11:30 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015, Alan BRASLAU wrote:


Wolfgang,

Can you explain to us why it should be preferable for ConTeXt users to
employ \frac12 rather than the native TeX construction {1\over 2}?
I understand that the macro \frac does some additional trickery but the
two constructions should *always* yield identical results (when
keyed-in properly).


One of the troubles with {  \over ...} and the like is that TeX does
not know which "style" to use. This can lead to extra processing when
using any command defined using \mathpalatte (such as \text, stacked
arrows, and others).

Consider \text{...}. Basically, we want \text{...} to typeset it's
argument in a \hbox with textsize equal to the normalsize in normal mode
and equal to script size when used in a subscript and in scriptsciptsize
when used in a sub-subscript. Now, in traditional tex, when parsing

{\text{hello} \over 2}

TeX does not kow what size to use for \text{...} until it encounters the
\over. So, when parsing \text{hello}, TeX generates all possible sizes
and then prunes them later on. With nested constructs like

{\text{hello}_{\text{world} \over 2} \over 2}

it can lead to exponential number of branches.

With \frac{\text{hello}}{2}, TeX "knows" what style to use for the
arguments. So, extra processing is not needed (at least, this is the
idea in LuaTeX; in PDFTeX, multiple sizes need to be generated). This
can lead to some slightly faster processing.


normally this is not what tex spends most time on although indeed it get 
slow as soon as you do 8 (massive) font switches plus other 
initializations (more a macro package issue then)



Also see http://tex.stackexchange.com/a/1261/ answer from Taco. Contrast
the definition of \cramped given there from one in the LaTeX mathtools
package
(http://ctan.bppro.ca/macros/latex/contrib/mathtools/mathtools.dtx)
[search from MT_cramped_clap_internal:Nn]


the \over and \above primitives are kind of special in the sense that 
they force the tex parser to backtrack (in practice it goes into another 
state and reconsiders the previous mathlist (of char) to become part of 
the fraction specification)


in the end there is a math list that gets processed and at that point 
tex will figure out the size (it only calculates once not four times as 
it knows what size it's in then)


as adity mantiones, as soon as one wants control over the size one runs 
into the problem that one has to use some construct that calculates all 
sizes (as then we pass an already typeset stream) so that tex when doing 
the fraction can choose the one it needs; this is referred to as 
"choices": if you want a smaller 1 and 2 in  {1\over2} then you need 
something {\allfour{1}\over\allfour{2}} which then quickly let you make 
a helper which then tends to be called \frac and 1\frac2 is not 
something you can do in macros


you can just use {{foo}\over{bar}} if you prefer (use all those braces 
to make things predictable) but then you cannot easily influence styling


luatex introduces a mechanism to predict the upcoming style so that one 
can act upon it and avoid the four choices but that is normally not a 
user level operation (too much code)


the whole idea of \frac is to provide a way to control styling (smaller 
that normal for instance)


in context the fraction mechanism is quite complex as all permutations 
you can imagine are wanted by (different) users and usage (and you don't 
want to know what people put in fractions)


basically you have

  style-a {style-b {{style-c}\over{style-d}}}

kind of cases and every style influences a nested one (in font size, 
spacing etc) and of course mixed use complicates matters (consistent 
spacing, coloring, etc)



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Re: [NTG-context] strange output in math display mode

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/23/2015 3:19 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

So it it a TeX programming limitation.

The risk of leading to an exponential number of branches is addressed
by Knuth at the beginning of Chapter 17 of the TeXbook (p. 139):
"Mathematicians tend to \quote{overuse} \over when they first begin to
typeset their own work on a system like \TEX." ...

At one point, I went back to using \over rather than \frac as the later
was broken and gave no output. This has since been fixed, but I stayed
with \over as I find primary operators to be much more elegant syntax
than multiple argument macros. It is too bad that luatex does not
employ a better programming solution, as the use of \frac{}{} leads to
ugly mathematical source code.


Well, it is not impossible in mkiv do make something 1\alansover2 that 
adjusts itself to some settings (i could probably do it right now) but 
who will use it (apart from you) and who would document it then ..



I guess that I should not worry about it too much since, as Knuth points
out in Chapter 17, overuse of \over, etc. leads to ugly results
anyways, just as well as an overuse of \text in mathematical formulas
(as we physicists tend to abuse) also leads to ugly mathematics.


Hans

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