[nysbirds-l] good goose-ing (Cackling, Canada, & forms...)

2016-02-16 Thread Thomas Fiore 
An informative topic, even knowing the Canada-Cackling geese have been  
discussed for over a decade;  for myself, it's certain that I've  
sometimes left a particular goose observation in the NY area, having  
not taken all the steps to try & get to more-refined ID in regards to  
these forms and in particular, when simple size ("just too large") and/ 
or bill size became a sticking-point in calling a Cackling as that,  
particularly for a form that seems to be somewhat regular even if  
uncommon around here.


many subscribers to this list may have been visiting some of the  
following web pages; there may be those who just visit this list and  
were not aware of all the info. that's available;  certainly there's  
more, as well... it appears that some in western N. America have  
worked on these issues in some cases more recently, and surely there  
would be more resources that are available, and perhaps online &  
accessible.


thanks to commenters, and for some who sent personal messages - below  
is a small sampling of related resources.


article by Ken Abraham in the Ontario Field Naturalists:
http://www.ofo.ca/site/page/view/articles.cacklinggoose

well-known bird/nature artist/illustrator & birder/author David  
Sibley's ongoing site:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/2007/07/identification-of-cackling-and-canada-goose/

New York's' Angus Wilson's pages on these geese forms:
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/CAGO.Subspecies.html

the other side of the Atlantic has, among many good sites:
http://www.irbc.ie/notes/cackling/cackling.php

from a more western perspective:
http://www.idahobirds.net/identification/white-cheeked/introduction.html

on a potential "taverneri" Cackling Goose in Connecticut, in 2008:
http://birdinggeek.blogspot.com/2008/08/taverners-cackling-goose-branta.html

Tom Fiore
Manhattan

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[nysbirds-l] good goose-ing (Cackling, Canada, & forms...)

2016-02-16 Thread Thomas Fiore 
An informative topic, even knowing the Canada-Cackling geese have been  
discussed for over a decade;  for myself, it's certain that I've  
sometimes left a particular goose observation in the NY area, having  
not taken all the steps to try & get to more-refined ID in regards to  
these forms and in particular, when simple size ("just too large") and/ 
or bill size became a sticking-point in calling a Cackling as that,  
particularly for a form that seems to be somewhat regular even if  
uncommon around here.


many subscribers to this list may have been visiting some of the  
following web pages; there may be those who just visit this list and  
were not aware of all the info. that's available;  certainly there's  
more, as well... it appears that some in western N. America have  
worked on these issues in some cases more recently, and surely there  
would be more resources that are available, and perhaps online &  
accessible.


thanks to commenters, and for some who sent personal messages - below  
is a small sampling of related resources.


article by Ken Abraham in the Ontario Field Naturalists:
http://www.ofo.ca/site/page/view/articles.cacklinggoose

well-known bird/nature artist/illustrator & birder/author David  
Sibley's ongoing site:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/2007/07/identification-of-cackling-and-canada-goose/

New York's' Angus Wilson's pages on these geese forms:
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/CAGO.Subspecies.html

the other side of the Atlantic has, among many good sites:
http://www.irbc.ie/notes/cackling/cackling.php

from a more western perspective:
http://www.idahobirds.net/identification/white-cheeked/introduction.html

on a potential "taverneri" Cackling Goose in Connecticut, in 2008:
http://birdinggeek.blogspot.com/2008/08/taverners-cackling-goose-branta.html

Tom Fiore
Manhattan

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Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, Manhattan

2016-02-16 Thread Paul R Sweet 
After being eaten by gulls probably not. We get way more salvage than we can 
handle. If you need more let me know.

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 7:31 PM, Kevin J. McGowan 
> wrote:

Always good for a skeleton!

From: 
bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu
 [mailto:bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Paul R Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:50 PM
To: Kai
Cc: NYSBIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, 
Manhattan

Probably not worth salvaging but a good record for NY county?

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Kai 
> wrote:
 In case it is of scientific interest to anyone on here, there was a dead 
Razorbill immediately off the southeast corner of the Battery Park promenade in 
Manhattan at about 4:20 PM today, being picked at by a gang of GBBGs.

Kai Sheffield
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Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, Manhattan

2016-02-16 Thread Paul R Sweet 
After being eaten by gulls probably not. We get way more salvage than we can 
handle. If you need more let me know.

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 7:31 PM, Kevin J. McGowan 
mailto:k...@cornell.edu>> wrote:

Always good for a skeleton!

From: 
bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu
 [mailto:bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Paul R Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:50 PM
To: Kai
Cc: NYSBIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, 
Manhattan

Probably not worth salvaging but a good record for NY county?

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Kai 
mailto:kai_sheffi...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
 In case it is of scientific interest to anyone on here, there was a dead 
Razorbill immediately off the southeast corner of the Battery Park promenade in 
Manhattan at about 4:20 PM today, being picked at by a gang of GBBGs.

Kai Sheffield
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RE: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, Manhattan

2016-02-16 Thread Kevin J. McGowan 
Always good for a skeleton!

From: bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Paul R Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:50 PM
To: Kai
Cc: NYSBIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, 
Manhattan

Probably not worth salvaging but a good record for NY county?

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Kai 
> wrote:
 In case it is of scientific interest to anyone on here, there was a dead 
Razorbill immediately off the southeast corner of the Battery Park promenade in 
Manhattan at about 4:20 PM today, being picked at by a gang of GBBGs.

Kai Sheffield
--
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RE: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, Manhattan

2016-02-16 Thread Kevin J. McGowan 
Always good for a skeleton!

From: bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-120172425-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Paul R Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:50 PM
To: Kai
Cc: NYSBIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, 
Manhattan

Probably not worth salvaging but a good record for NY county?

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Kai 
mailto:kai_sheffi...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
 In case it is of scientific interest to anyone on here, there was a dead 
Razorbill immediately off the southeast corner of the Battery Park promenade in 
Manhattan at about 4:20 PM today, being picked at by a gang of GBBGs.

Kai Sheffield
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Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, Manhattan

2016-02-16 Thread Paul R Sweet 
Probably not worth salvaging but a good record for NY county?

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Kai 
> wrote:

 In case it is of scientific interest to anyone on here, there was a dead 
Razorbill immediately off the southeast corner of the Battery Park promenade in 
Manhattan at about 4:20 PM today, being picked at by a gang of GBBGs.

Kai Sheffield
--
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Re: [nysbirds-l] (No sighting) Dead Razorbill at Battery Park, Manhattan

2016-02-16 Thread Paul R Sweet 
Probably not worth salvaging but a good record for NY county?

Paul Sweet | Department of Ornithology | American Museum of Natural History | 
Central Park West @ 79th St | NY 10023 | Tel 212 769 5780 | Mob 718 757 5941

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:48 PM, Kai 
mailto:kai_sheffi...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

 In case it is of scientific interest to anyone on here, there was a dead 
Razorbill immediately off the southeast corner of the Battery Park promenade in 
Manhattan at about 4:20 PM today, being picked at by a gang of GBBGs.

Kai Sheffield
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[nysbirds-l] Iceland Gull a.m, Central Park NYC 2/16

2016-02-16 Thread Thomas Fiore 

Tuesday, 16 February, 2016 -

Central Park, Manhattan, N.Y. City

An Iceland Gull was again seen on the reservoir in Central Park, this  
morning from 7-8 a.m. - on arrival there around sunrise I immediately  
saw that large numbers of gulls were present & some more were  
arriving, with still 60% or more of the surface holding skim-ice, &  
many gulls as well as geese & other birds sitting out on & also near  
the ice, as well as in the water.  The Iceland (presumed-apparent  
Kumlein's form) Gull was in the SE quadrant of the reservoir, &  
allowed me half-decent photos with a point-&-shoot, including at least  
1 low-flight photo, and was roughly 100 yards west of the east bank of  
the res., not far north of the SE pumping station building - it was  
lost to view after about 8 a.m. when I'd started to do some scanning &  
counting of the many other birds.


More than 1,000 gulls were present after 8 a.m., with at least 700+  
already present on my arrival at the reservoir a bit before sunrise.   
With the (rapidly!)  changeable weather now, it's hard to predict what  
the gull situation will be thru this day, much less the rest of the  
week, but in general, by later (p.m.) most days the gulls at the CP  
reservoir tend to move out and roost elsewhere (and usually not in the  
park, but last night may have been an exception.)


As for a smaller similar-to Canada-type goose, one was again present  
this morning on the reservoir along with 330+ more-standard sized  
'typical-here' Canada Geese. The smaller (& smaller-billed) goose was  
in the n. portion of the reservoir before 7 a.m., but in a position,  
with many other (larger) geese all around, that made it almost useless  
to photo., at least with a point-&-shoot camera. Presuming the same  
small goose there under discussion on this list, it has been present  
on the reservoir for at least 4 days, perhaps more as the numbers of  
Canada geese have been somewhat constant in the 300-400 range, for a  
bit longer time.


Additional scanning this a.m. did not turn up any more-uncommon  
species; a list of what I was able to find is below.


Central Park reservoir, early a.m. -

Double-crested Cormorant (1)
Canada Goose (330+), and 1 smaller goose, presumed the individual with  
smaller bill that has been present recently.

American Black Duck (4)
Mallard (200+)
Gadwall (2)
Northern Shoveler (136, actual count)
Ring-necked Duck (male; in the SE quadrant, sleeping; photo.)
Bufflehead (12)
Hooded Merganser (8)
Ruddy Duck (47; fun to watch some in flight as the moved around the  
reservoir a bit)

Pied-billed Grebe (1)
American Coot (5)
Iceland Gull (1, SE quadrant, photos.)
Ring-billed Gull (650+++ with more gulls, & esp. Ring-billed, still  
arriving after 8 a.m.)

Herring Gull (150+)
Great Black-backed Gull (75+)

Various other birds elsewhere in Central Park, a.m. -

Great Blue Heron, Wood Duck (male), Cooper's Hawk, Red-tailed Hawk,  
American Kestrel, Yellow-bellied Sapsucker, Brown Creeper, Golden- 
crowned Kinglet, Ruby-crowned Kinglet (several), Hermit Thrush,  
American Robin (80+), Gray Catbird (3 locations), N. Mockingbird,  
Brown Thrasher (ongoing in at least 2 locations), Eastern Towhee  
(several), [Red] Fox Sparrow (modest numbers), Dark-eyed Junco (few),  
Red-winged Blackbird, Common Grackle, Brown-headed Cowbird, and  
various other common resident or 'wintering-of-late' species.


good it's-zero-&-then-it's-55-degrees birding,

Tom Fiore
Manhattan





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RE: [nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

2016-02-16 Thread Shaibal Mitra 
Hi Peter and all,

Two facts have been known for a long time but seem consistently neglected in 
the conventional wisdom:

1. Richardson's Goose has occurred in the Northeast for a long time (old 
specimen records), it is increasing in abundance and distribution, and it is 
highly  variable..
2. Despite lots of talk, parvipes is not known to occur in the Northeast (no 
NYS specimen records from the pre-split days, unlike Richardson's).

Discussions of the kind surrounding the Central Park goose arise all the time, 
frequently enough that I think they need to be framed better.

Typically, the starting point is perplexity over a bird that resembles a 
Richardson's Goose in several ways, but deviates in some way (usually body size 
or bill size).

I don't have time to compile my notes in detail right now, but I found some 
relevant verbiage in my outbox, from a discussion of a larger-than-expected 
Richardson's type from Bergen, NJ, back in January 2010:

“I think people's idea of what a 'standard-issue' Richardson's Goose looks like 
has been skewed by its perceived rarity, so that the smallest, most extreme 
individuals have been reported/identified disproportionately in our region. On 
LI, we have often found obvious (= extreme) Richardson's Geese in the company 
of somewhat larger but otherwise essentially identical individuals.

Data from the breeding grounds show that male Richardson's Geese, while smaller 
than Canada Geese, are by no means always tiny. I have argued that the 
conservative approach to larger-than-expected  birds showing the characters of 
this taxon in our region is Richardson's until proven otherwise. That is, the 
burden of proof has shifted to those who suggest that parvipes Lesser Canada 
Geese occur at all regularly in our region."

Having said all this, I agree that the Central Park bird's bill seems very 
large for a Richardson's. But that's just one character. On the pro 
Richardson's side is a very important field mark that we worked out in the 
early years of this era of gossaging: dorsal contour.

Richardson's Geese have long wings in proportion to their body size. At rest, 
the peak of the back rises close to the front end of the body (often in a 
distinct little hump), then drops back in a long straight line, or even a 
slightly concave line, through the relatively long (usually pale) tertials. 
Furthermore, the tertials account for a larger proportion of the length of the 
dorsal contour.

In contrast, in Canada Goose, the dorsal contour is better described as a 
hemispheric dome, peaking farther back, at the middle of the body, and 
appearing evenly rounded.

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore





From: bounce-120166812-11143...@list.cornell.edu 
[bounce-120166812-11143...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Peter Post 
[pwp...@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 2:55 PM
To: NYSbirds-L@cornell.edu cornell
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

Jean Irons kindly forwarded my query concerning the Id of the Central Park 
goose to goose expert Ken Abraham. His opinion is that it is a Cackling Goose 
(B. hutchinsii). Details below:

Peter Post


Begin forwarded message:

From: jeani...@sympatico.ca
Date: February 15, 2016 11:09:48 AM EST
To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] goose ID
Reply-To: jeani...@sympatico.ca

Hi Peter,



We asked goose expert Ken Abraham to comment. Please see
below.



“It’s difficult to tell what this bird is, other than
that it is smaller white-cheeked goose than the associated birds (which are
likely large Canada Geese of the local breeding population). The bill is the
obvious character trait that doesn’t fit the birder’s conventional wisdom that
a cackling goose must have a short, stubby, triangular bill. This is not the
case. Photographs of breeding geese from Southampton Island and western Hudson
Bay coast of Nunavut deemed to be B. hutchinsii show a variety of bill shapes,
including ones that look like the bird in this observation. There is also a
fairly large variation in B. hutchinsii body size from the Nunavut-Manitoba
border to Baffin Island  (larger in the
south approaching the low end of the B. c. interior size range).



My usual caveat about identification of any eastern
white-cheeked goose as a Lesser Canada Goose B. c. parvipes is that such a bird
would be exceedingly exceedingly rare based on all known band recoveries from
the restricted breeding range of B. c. parvipes
as it understood since the revision of thinking about species and
subspecies in the 2004 A.O.U. split. Current thinking is that B. c. parvipes is
restricted to Alaska, and that the small white cheeked geese across the
Canadian arctic from Yukon to Nunavut are B.
hutchinsii. The observer of this bird may not be aware of this (and
frankly most people aren’t because some of the information isn’t published or

RE: [nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

2016-02-16 Thread Shaibal Mitra 
Hi Peter and all,

Two facts have been known for a long time but seem consistently neglected in 
the conventional wisdom:

1. Richardson's Goose has occurred in the Northeast for a long time (old 
specimen records), it is increasing in abundance and distribution, and it is 
highly  variable..
2. Despite lots of talk, parvipes is not known to occur in the Northeast (no 
NYS specimen records from the pre-split days, unlike Richardson's).

Discussions of the kind surrounding the Central Park goose arise all the time, 
frequently enough that I think they need to be framed better.

Typically, the starting point is perplexity over a bird that resembles a 
Richardson's Goose in several ways, but deviates in some way (usually body size 
or bill size).

I don't have time to compile my notes in detail right now, but I found some 
relevant verbiage in my outbox, from a discussion of a larger-than-expected 
Richardson's type from Bergen, NJ, back in January 2010:

“I think people's idea of what a 'standard-issue' Richardson's Goose looks like 
has been skewed by its perceived rarity, so that the smallest, most extreme 
individuals have been reported/identified disproportionately in our region. On 
LI, we have often found obvious (= extreme) Richardson's Geese in the company 
of somewhat larger but otherwise essentially identical individuals.

Data from the breeding grounds show that male Richardson's Geese, while smaller 
than Canada Geese, are by no means always tiny. I have argued that the 
conservative approach to larger-than-expected  birds showing the characters of 
this taxon in our region is Richardson's until proven otherwise. That is, the 
burden of proof has shifted to those who suggest that parvipes Lesser Canada 
Geese occur at all regularly in our region."

Having said all this, I agree that the Central Park bird's bill seems very 
large for a Richardson's. But that's just one character. On the pro 
Richardson's side is a very important field mark that we worked out in the 
early years of this era of gossaging: dorsal contour.

Richardson's Geese have long wings in proportion to their body size. At rest, 
the peak of the back rises close to the front end of the body (often in a 
distinct little hump), then drops back in a long straight line, or even a 
slightly concave line, through the relatively long (usually pale) tertials. 
Furthermore, the tertials account for a larger proportion of the length of the 
dorsal contour.

In contrast, in Canada Goose, the dorsal contour is better described as a 
hemispheric dome, peaking farther back, at the middle of the body, and 
appearing evenly rounded.

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore





From: bounce-120166812-11143...@list.cornell.edu 
[bounce-120166812-11143...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Peter Post 
[pwp...@nyc.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 2:55 PM
To: NYSbirds-L@cornell.edu cornell
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Central Park Goose. An Experts Opinion

Jean Irons kindly forwarded my query concerning the Id of the Central Park 
goose to goose expert Ken Abraham. His opinion is that it is a Cackling Goose 
(B. hutchinsii). Details below:

Peter Post


Begin forwarded message:

From: jeani...@sympatico.ca
Date: February 15, 2016 11:09:48 AM EST
To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] goose ID
Reply-To: jeani...@sympatico.ca

Hi Peter,



We asked goose expert Ken Abraham to comment. Please see
below.



“It’s difficult to tell what this bird is, other than
that it is smaller white-cheeked goose than the associated birds (which are
likely large Canada Geese of the local breeding population). The bill is the
obvious character trait that doesn’t fit the birder’s conventional wisdom that
a cackling goose must have a short, stubby, triangular bill. This is not the
case. Photographs of breeding geese from Southampton Island and western Hudson
Bay coast of Nunavut deemed to be B. hutchinsii show a variety of bill shapes,
including ones that look like the bird in this observation. There is also a
fairly large variation in B. hutchinsii body size from the Nunavut-Manitoba
border to Baffin Island  (larger in the
south approaching the low end of the B. c. interior size range).



My usual caveat about identification of any eastern
white-cheeked goose as a Lesser Canada Goose B. c. parvipes is that such a bird
would be exceedingly exceedingly rare based on all known band recoveries from
the restricted breeding range of B. c. parvipes
as it understood since the revision of thinking about species and
subspecies in the 2004 A.O.U. split. Current thinking is that B. c. parvipes is
restricted to Alaska, and that the small white cheeked geese across the
Canadian arctic from Yukon to Nunavut are B.
hutchinsii. The observer of this bird may not be aware of this (and
frankly most people aren’t because some of the information isn’t published or

[nysbirds-l] Belmont lake stpk suff co.

2016-02-16 Thread Arie Gilbert 

Last night visiting birder Carlos Sanchez saw a Barnacle Goose come in to roost 
which we relocated this morning along with a Cackling Goose and 2 GWF Geese. 
Seen on 02/16/2016 @ 8: AM
Arie Gilbert 
No. Babylon NY 
www.powerbirder.blogspot 
www.qcbirdclub.org
--
Sent from "Loretta IV" in the field. 
--

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[nysbirds-l] Belmont lake stpk suff co.

2016-02-16 Thread Arie Gilbert 

Last night visiting birder Carlos Sanchez saw a Barnacle Goose come in to roost 
which we relocated this morning along with a Cackling Goose and 2 GWF Geese. 
Seen on 02/16/2016 @ 8: AM
Arie Gilbert 
No. Babylon NY 
www.powerbirder.blogspot 
www.qcbirdclub.org
--
Sent from "Loretta IV" in the field. 
--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
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http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--