Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Denys Rtveliashvili]

Hi Volker,

I understand. But so far I have not seen a single case of anything 
non-standard being distracting. While the opposite is very much true.


If you launch "vim -N" (non-compatible mode), what could you possibly 
find distracting?



Hello all!



 The list of gains is huge but the most obvious to me are:
 a) syntax highlighting makes it easier to read code and configuration files
 b) navigation is possible with arrow keys, page-up/down, home/end
 c) selecting blocks of texts and running regexps over them is trivial

 And I see not a single downside in the non-compatible vim mode.


Maybe my question was stupid but: are there environment for which using "vim"
as "vi" breaks things ? (serial consoles ?)
If it is the case then Volker has a point.

Wow, interesting discussion.

Maybe I should clarify my concern.  When I log in as root via the
system console on a newly installed system, I do not want to be
distracted by anything "non-standard".  I have not experienced any
problems yet simply because I have never used vim in non-compatible
mode as root.

In my "normal" user account, I have a .vimrc file.  The simple presence
of this file makes vim switch to non-compatible mode.  I don't really
care because obviously I use Emacs for most things. :-)

The problem I see with your suggestion is simply the fact that it will
also change the behaviour for the root user.


Regards -- Volker



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Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Volker A. Brandt]

Hello all!


> The list of gains is huge but the most obvious to me are:
> a) syntax highlighting makes it easier to read code and configuration 
> files
> b) navigation is possible with arrow keys, page-up/down, home/end
> c) selecting blocks of texts and running regexps over them is trivial
> 
> And I see not a single downside in the non-compatible vim mode.
> 
> 
> Maybe my question was stupid but: are there environment for which using "vim"
> as "vi" breaks things ? (serial consoles ?)
> If it is the case then Volker has a point.

Wow, interesting discussion.

Maybe I should clarify my concern.  When I log in as root via the
system console on a newly installed system, I do not want to be
distracted by anything "non-standard".  I have not experienced any
problems yet simply because I have never used vim in non-compatible
mode as root.

In my "normal" user account, I have a .vimrc file.  The simple presence
of this file makes vim switch to non-compatible mode.  I don't really
care because obviously I use Emacs for most things. :-)

The problem I see with your suggestion is simply the fact that it will
also change the behaviour for the root user.


Regards -- Volker
-- 

Volker A. Brandt   Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANYEmail: v...@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt

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Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Aurélien Larcher]

> Hello Volker,
>
> The list of gains is huge but the most obvious to me are:
> a) syntax highlighting makes it easier to read code and configuration files
> b) navigation is possible with arrow keys, page-up/down, home/end
> c) selecting blocks of texts and running regexps over them is trivial
>
> And I see not a single downside in the non-compatible vim mode.
>

Maybe my question was stupid but: are there environment for which using
"vim" as "vi" breaks things ? (serial consoles ?)
If it is the case then Volker has a point.

>
> I have never seen it not working in a limited environment. As long as
> terminal is correctly specified it acts accordingly.
>
> Yes, OpenIndiana is not Linux. But does it mean that it should be worse
> than Linux?
>

I do not think that is the point: if Linux distributions chose to call "vi"
something that is not "vi" that's their choice but that's debatable.
On the contrary, if you call "vim" nowadays you expect to use "vim" not in
vi-compatible mode.

These are two differents issues although related.


>
> "vi" is a system utility, no question about it. But it is not "ed" or
> "sed". It is used by real human beings. And that's why I would like it to
> be more human oriented.
>
> The original Solaris "vi" also was not set in stone I suppose. Surely it
> was updated over time as people needed a useful tool.
>
> Well to me the olden "vi" is broken. I cannot use it without much
> shivering. I prefer a tool which was polished by many people to be an
> excellent, if not best, text editor. Why would I want to use a fossilised
> "vi" mode which has not effectively developed with time if there is a
> better tool doing all the same thing plus many more?
>
> Really, can you name a few actual examples why "non compatible" mode is
> worse than a "compatible" one?
>
> Hello Denys!
>>
>>
>> VIM runs in non-compatible mode by default on many if not all Linux
>>> distributions and frankly I see no reasons why would someone want to
>>> have it in "compatible" mode.
>>>
>> Because this is not Linux, and the "system" vi should be as close to
>> the original Solaris vi it replaced.
>>
>> Why can't you just set that for your user account?  What is the gain?
>> Remember that the system vi may be used in a limited environment,
>> such as a serial system console.  Don't fix things that aren't broken.
>>
>>
>> Regards -- Volker
>>
>
>
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Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Peter Tribble]

On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Volker A. Brandt  wrote:

> Hello Denys!
>
>
> > VIM runs in non-compatible mode by default on many if not all Linux
> > distributions and frankly I see no reasons why would someone want to
> > have it in "compatible" mode.
>
> Because this is not Linux, and the "system" vi should be as close to
> the original Solaris vi it replaced.
>
> Why can't you just set that for your user account?  What is the gain?
> Remember that the system vi may be used in a limited environment,
> such as a serial system console.  Don't fix things that aren't broken.
>

If you want a true vi, why not use a true vi?

(On OI, it seems to be in /usr/xpg6/bin/vi - or even /usr/has/bin/vi for
the nostalgic.)

-- 
-Peter Tribble
http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Denys Rtveliashvili]

Hello Volker,

The list of gains is huge but the most obvious to me are:
a) syntax highlighting makes it easier to read code and configuration files
b) navigation is possible with arrow keys, page-up/down, home/end
c) selecting blocks of texts and running regexps over them is trivial

And I see not a single downside in the non-compatible vim mode.

I have never seen it not working in a limited environment. As long as 
terminal is correctly specified it acts accordingly.


Yes, OpenIndiana is not Linux. But does it mean that it should be worse 
than Linux?


"vi" is a system utility, no question about it. But it is not "ed" or 
"sed". It is used by real human beings. And that's why I would like it 
to be more human oriented.


The original Solaris "vi" also was not set in stone I suppose. Surely it 
was updated over time as people needed a useful tool.


Well to me the olden "vi" is broken. I cannot use it without much 
shivering. I prefer a tool which was polished by many people to be an 
excellent, if not best, text editor. Why would I want to use a 
fossilised "vi" mode which has not effectively developed with time if 
there is a better tool doing all the same thing plus many more?


Really, can you name a few actual examples why "non compatible" mode is 
worse than a "compatible" one?



Hello Denys!



VIM runs in non-compatible mode by default on many if not all Linux
distributions and frankly I see no reasons why would someone want to
have it in "compatible" mode.

Because this is not Linux, and the "system" vi should be as close to
the original Solaris vi it replaced.

Why can't you just set that for your user account?  What is the gain?
Remember that the system vi may be used in a limited environment,
such as a serial system console.  Don't fix things that aren't broken.


Regards -- Volker



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Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Aurélien Larcher]

On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Volker A. Brandt  wrote:

> Hello Denys!
>
>
> > VIM runs in non-compatible mode by default on many if not all Linux
> > distributions and frankly I see no reasons why would someone want to
> > have it in "compatible" mode.
>
> Because this is not Linux, and the "system" vi should be as close to
> the original Solaris vi it replaced.
>
> Why can't you just set that for your user account?  What is the gain?
> Remember that the system vi may be used in a limited environment,
> such as a serial system console.  Don't fix things that aren't broken.
>

I guess the real issue at the beginning is "vi" being a symlink to "vim"
and thus pretending being something it is not.


>
>
> Regards -- Volker
> --
> 
> Volker A. Brandt   Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
> Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
> Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANYEmail: v...@bb-c.de
> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 46
> Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
>
> "When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead"
>
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Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Volker A. Brandt]

Hello Denys!


> VIM runs in non-compatible mode by default on many if not all Linux 
> distributions and frankly I see no reasons why would someone want to 
> have it in "compatible" mode.

Because this is not Linux, and the "system" vi should be as close to
the original Solaris vi it replaced.

Why can't you just set that for your user account?  What is the gain?
Remember that the system vi may be used in a limited environment,
such as a serial system console.  Don't fix things that aren't broken.


Regards -- Volker
-- 

Volker A. Brandt   Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANYEmail: v...@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt

"When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead"

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Re: [oi-dev] Making VIM run in a modern mode by default

[Aurélien Larcher]

Hullo,


> The tweak is a matter of adding a system-wide file.
>
> So the question is this: are there any real reasons why it must not be
> done?
> If there are none, I would make the change.
>

Considering the current practice I think this is reasonable.
I do not think we should aim for too many modifications like in debian.vim
but syntax + non-compatible mode seems OK.
The only question is whether the non-compatible mode could behave
incorrectly with some terminal definitions.
Best regards

Aurelien



>
> With kind regards,
> Denys Rtveliashvili
>
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