Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Michael Rasmussen]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:27:28 +0100
Peter Tribble  wrote:

> 
> Which does open the question: how many people need LTS? (And what
> does LTS mean for them - in terms of how long support would be needed,
> and what level of support/backports they expect.) Perhaps Chris could
> chip in here, but I know that with my $DAYJOB hat on the idea of
> dropping security updates for release X as soon as release Y comes out
> is a bit of a non-starter.
> 
I forgot one other important reason:
6) Hardware is acquired only if it is 100% supported by LTS release and
a 3 years support period nicely fits the expected lifetime for hardware.

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Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Michael Rasmussen]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:27:28 +0100
Peter Tribble  wrote:

> 
> Which does open the question: how many people need LTS? (And what
> does LTS mean for them - in terms of how long support would be needed,
> and what level of support/backports they expect.) Perhaps Chris could
> chip in here, but I know that with my $DAYJOB hat on the idea of
> dropping security updates for release X as soon as release Y comes out
> is a bit of a non-starter.
> 
The reason I highly favor LTS releases are as follows:
1) Omnios(ce) is used as storage server for a virtualized environment.
2) Omnios(ce) does not have a cluster solution within reach of my
pocket book.
3) Every kernel upgrade means every VM except for infrastructure VM's
which run on other hardware faces downtime which means disruption of
service.
4) Because of this I want to minimize kernel upgrades.
5) An Omnios(ce) upgrade always includes a kernel upgrade.

I guess the above reasons apply to many data center installations an
especially data center installations for virtualized environments.

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Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017, Peter Tribble wrote:


On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, Bob Friesenhahn <
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote:

This would be a great way for a commercial outfit which offers paid
support contracts to get involved.  LTS releases are quite a lot of
commitment and work but a commercial support company might be able to
commit to doing this work.


I think we've already concluded that doing this isn't a viable commercial
proposition.


I think that being a viable commercial proposition depends on the cost 
structure and customer expectations.  OmniTI has a high cost model 
with presumably highly-compensated individuals living in presumably 
high cost of living areas.


A small company in Slovakia could likely accomplish what a company in 
the San Francisco bay area could not.


Bob
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Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Andy Fiddaman]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017, Peter Tribble wrote:

; Now the current release (151022) is marked as LTS. So at least you're in
; a reasonably stable place right now and have options, with no need to
; commit to anythjing for a few months.

Just to be clear, r151022 was marked as LTS by OmniTI. Those three letters
did make it into one of our announcements (the second one I think) but we
are not currently considering r151022 to be an LTS release.

r151024 is currently pencilled in for late November (6 months after the
release of r151022) and once it arrives, r22 will continue to be
supported for 6 months, until r26 lands. We would encourage people to move
to r24 during that time rather than waiting until r22 stops being supported.

As Tobi has said, we're open to discussion and interested in people's views
https://gitter.im/omniosorg/Lobby

Andy

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Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Chris Siebenmann]

> Which does open the question: how many people need LTS? (And what does
> LTS mean for them - in terms of how long support would be needed, and
> what level of support/backports they expect.) Perhaps Chris could chip
> in here, but I know that with my $DAYJOB hat on the idea of dropping
> security updates for release X as soon as release Y comes out is a bit
> of a non-starter.

 We care almost entirely about security updates. It would be nice to
get updates for data-loss or panic-your-system problems as well, but
it's not as essential as we very much hope not to hit one once we have
qualified a production environment, and some of them will make applying
updates more dangerous (since you're talking about more changes and
changes to things like the kernel).

 We need this for at least two years per release, ideally with six
months or so overlap of security updates between LTS releases. We need
such a long support period (and the overlap) because in our environment,
qualifying and rolling out a new release is not something that we can
do easily, rapidly, or very often. OmniOS sits at the center of our
fileserver infrastructure, which sits at the center of our entire
environment; if a fileserver has problems, *everything* has problems
(and then a bunch of professors and graduate students get angry at us,
which has various bad consequences for everyone).

(This also applies to some updates within a single release, especially
kernel updates. An updated kernel is not too far off from a new release
unless it only has very narrow and very specific fixes that we can be
highly confident in.)

 A few months ago (when the initial OmniOS news broke) I wrote more
about our needs here:

 https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/solaris/IllumosDistributionNeeds

Background on our fileserver environment is here:

 https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/solaris/ZFSFileserverSetupII

- cks
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Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Tobi Oetiker]

> On 26 Jul 2017, at 22:27, Peter Tribble  wrote:
> [...]
> but I know that with my $DAYJOB hat on the idea of
> dropping security updates for release X as soon as release Y comes out
> is a bit of a non-starter.

our idea is to support X as well as X-1 so there would be half a year overlap.

and I bet that if many people step up with checkbook or spare time and 
abilities in hand for LTS releases, that is certainly doable.

cheers
tobi 

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Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017, Tobias Oetiker wrote:


we have discussed this in the core team and found that no one of us has been
using LTS until now and no one is planning to do so in the future ...


This would be a great way for a commercial outfit which offers paid 
support contracts to get involved.  LTS releases are quite a lot of 
commitment and work but a commercial support company might be able to 
commit to doing this work.


Alternatively, a different set of volunteers could focus on LTS.

Bob
--
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Re: [OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Tobias Oetiker]

Hi Chris,

we have discussed this in the core team and found that no one of us has been
using LTS until now and no one is planning to do so in the future ... 

What we intend, is to support the current and previous release with an emphasis
on the current release going forward from r151022. 

That said, maybe someone will step up and take up the LTS mantel.
The build process for r151022 is in better shape than ever, now that Andy and
Dominik have lavished all that love on it.

SO if this is of interest to you, we will be glad to hear your ideas and also
help out if someone wants to step up. Let's discuss in 
https://gitter.im/omniosorg/Lobby

cheers
tobi

- On Jul 25, 2017, at 11:59 PM, Chris Siebenmann c...@cs.toronto.edu wrote:

> The OmniOS CE release announcement here on the mailing list covered
> the broad plans for the (non-Bloody) release schedule:
> 
>   The intention is for new stable releases to continue to come
>   out every 26 weeks. Interim, "weekly" updates to stable follow a
>   fixed schedule denoted by letters, one per week. Weekly releases
>   are made as needed, so there may not be a release each week. [...]
> 
> My assumption is that normally, each regular stable release only
> receives updates until the next regular stable release comes out; when
> the next stable release comes out, you are expected to update to it and
> then start tracking the interim weekly updates to the new stable.  This
> raises two closely related questions:
> 
> First, is this understanding of updates to stable releases accurate?
> 
> Second, if it is, are there any plans for a 'LTS' stable release with
> an extended period of at least security updates for that LTS release?
> Is this in fact the current r151022 release, which I've seen some CE
> messages describe as 'OmniOS r151022 LTS' (eg in the announcement of
> r151022i)?
> 
> Thanks in advance, and my apologies if I've overlooked a discussion
> of this on the mailing list (or a mention of this on the OmniOS CE
> website).
> 
>   - cks
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[OmniOS-discuss] OmniOS CE question: will there be a LTS stable release?

[Chris Siebenmann]

 The OmniOS CE release announcement here on the mailing list covered
the broad plans for the (non-Bloody) release schedule:

The intention is for new stable releases to continue to come
out every 26 weeks. Interim, "weekly" updates to stable follow a
fixed schedule denoted by letters, one per week. Weekly releases
are made as needed, so there may not be a release each week. [...]

My assumption is that normally, each regular stable release only
receives updates until the next regular stable release comes out; when
the next stable release comes out, you are expected to update to it and
then start tracking the interim weekly updates to the new stable.  This
raises two closely related questions:

 First, is this understanding of updates to stable releases accurate?

 Second, if it is, are there any plans for a 'LTS' stable release with
an extended period of at least security updates for that LTS release?
Is this in fact the current r151022 release, which I've seen some CE
messages describe as 'OmniOS r151022 LTS' (eg in the announcement of
r151022i)?

 Thanks in advance, and my apologies if I've overlooked a discussion
of this on the mailing list (or a mention of this on the OmniOS CE
website).

- cks
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