Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hi Claudio, On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 06:46:26PM -0200, Claudio Filho wrote: was more easy to migrate to LibO. Today, only René, a Debian Developer, maintains the package there. Thats not true. I do work on that too as is Lionel Elie Mamane and sometimes Matthias Klose (for ARM). Rene is clearly the final judge on contributions and changes to LibreOffice packaging on Debian as he is doing an excellent job there. Best, Bjoern
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hi Bjoern 2012/1/13 Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com: Thats not true. I do work on that too as is Lionel Elie Mamane and sometimes Matthias Klose (for ARM). Rene is clearly the final judge on contributions and changes to LibreOffice packaging on Debian as he is doing an excellent job there. Absolutely! I agree with you that René doing an excellent work and he knows all inside the OOo/LibO packaging process! What i (try) say is that we have a small number of people envolved in this process. As you said, are 3 people for a *big* project. Think this 3 people looking *two* bigs projects. IMO, I can't see how. IMHO, we need more people that know the debian package process to maintain AOOo inside Debian. if I maintain a package and its project forked in two, i should choice one branch too. I think that is impossible maintain two enormous packages like AOOo and LibO. And, when Debian drop a package, generally all derivated distros drop too. See the case of Java. Debian dropped java and Ubuntu some days ago. Now, Oracle's Java for ubuntu users only through a ppa repository. And please, my focus is on the lack of people, and not who does the work. Claudio
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hi, Le 13 janv. 12 à 10:02, Bjoern Michaelsen a écrit : Hi Claudio, On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 06:46:26PM -0200, Claudio Filho wrote: was more easy to migrate to LibO. Today, only René, a Debian Developer, maintains the package there. Thats not true. I do work on that too as is Lionel Elie Mamane and sometimes Matthias Klose (for ARM). Rene is clearly the final judge on contributions and changes to LibreOffice packaging on Debian That's true, Rene is free to create a NEW application, using OpenOffice.org resources. But so far, rename everything LibreOffice in the files concerning OpenOffice.org is not fair. As I wrote, apt-get install openoffice.org should lead to no longer maintained, or something like that, but NOT lead to replaced by LibreOffice or whatever. IMHO, the right decision could have been : - clone openoffice.org source files (all the Debian bazaar , like Control and so on files) - create / declare libreoffice as a NEW application in Debian repos - put openoffice.org in unmaintained or whatever similar status. That's just a personal opinion, but I hope I was clear. If not please ask me and I'll reformulate. as he is doing an excellent job there. Nobody told he didn't and nobody will contest. Since years Rene does a great work for OpenOffice.org and now LibreOffice. Regards, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
On 1/13/12 1:03 PM, eric b wrote: Hi, Le 13 janv. 12 à 10:02, Bjoern Michaelsen a écrit : Hi Claudio, On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 06:46:26PM -0200, Claudio Filho wrote: was more easy to migrate to LibO. Today, only René, a Debian Developer, maintains the package there. Thats not true. I do work on that too as is Lionel Elie Mamane and sometimes Matthias Klose (for ARM). Rene is clearly the final judge on contributions and changes to LibreOffice packaging on Debian That's true, Rene is free to create a NEW application, using OpenOffice.org resources. But so far, rename everything LibreOffice in the files concerning OpenOffice.org is not fair. As I wrote, apt-get install openoffice.org should lead to no longer maintained, or something like that, but NOT lead to replaced by LibreOffice or whatever. IMHO, the right decision could have been : - clone openoffice.org source files (all the Debian bazaar , like Control and so on files) - create / declare libreoffice as a NEW application in Debian repos - put openoffice.org in unmaintained or whatever similar status. That's just a personal opinion, but I hope I was clear. If not please ask me and I'll reformulate. please let us stop this discussion for now, we will address this when we have a release in the appropriate way. The thread started to become off-topic Juergen as he is doing an excellent job there. Nobody told he didn't and nobody will contest. Since years Rene does a great work for OpenOffice.org and now LibreOffice. Regards, Eric
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hi Claudio, On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 09:46:05AM -0200, Claudio Filho wrote: Absolutely! I agree with you that René doing an excellent work and he knows all inside the OOo/LibO packaging process! Great to see we agree there! What i (try) say is that we have a small number of people envolved in this process. As you said, are 3 people for a *big* project. Think this 3 people looking *two* bigs projects. IMO, I can't see how. The small number of people involved are not really the problem. The core issue is how bad OpenOffice.org historically was prepared for releases on *nix platforms, requiring huge amounts of fragile workarounds. At LibreOffice a lot of this stuff has already been simplifed upstream, there has been good (invisible to the enduser) progress here. The only reason packaging of OpenOffice.org was sustainable with the given resources for OpenOffice.org was because of the slow developement velocity and longwinding release cycles. Given the progress at LibreOffice, I think the motivation to go back to the messy, wasteful and fragile release process of OpenOffice.org (which is where AOOoI is currently at) is very limited for all current participants (who are all involved in some way in upstream LibreOffice development btw). if I maintain a package and its project forked in two, i should choice one branch too. I think that is impossible maintain two enormous packages like AOOo and LibO. Given that LibreOffice is actively maintained, that OpenOffice.org is dead and Apache OpenOffice (Incubating) has not even released yet, I think there is an obvious conclusion from your statements. Best, Bjoern
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hi, On 13.01.2012 14:25, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Hi Claudio, On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 09:46:05AM -0200, Claudio Filho wrote: Absolutely! I agree with you that René doing an excellent work and he knows all inside the OOo/LibO packaging process! Great to see we agree there! What i (try) say is that we have a small number of people envolved in this process. As you said, are 3 people for a *big* project. Think this 3 people looking *two* bigs projects. IMO, I can't see how. The small number of people involved are not really the problem. The core issue is how bad OpenOffice.org historically was prepared for releases on *nix platforms, requiring huge amounts of fragile workarounds. At LibreOffice a lot of this stuff has already been simplifed upstream, there has been good (invisible to the enduser) progress here. That is good to hear, maybe we can learn from that improvement. The only reason packaging of OpenOffice.org was sustainable with the given resources for OpenOffice.org was because of the slow developement velocity and longwinding release cycles. I can accept longwinding release cycles but not slow developement velocity. After all Sun/Oracle has been the biggest contributor for OpenOffice. LibreOffice is still integrating features made by Sun/Oracle (it has just been a month or two since my new Impress slide sorter turned up in LibreOffice.) Given the progress at LibreOffice, I think the motivation to go back to the messy, wasteful and fragile release process of OpenOffice.org (which is where AOOoI is currently at) is very limited for all current participants (who are all involved in some way in upstream LibreOffice development btw). You are right that our old release process was not the best. Still, I would choose friendlier words. At Apache OpenOffice we are working to improve on that. Any help from LibreOffice is welcome. if I maintain a package and its project forked in two, i should choice one branch too. I think that is impossible maintain two enormous packages like AOOo and LibO. Given that LibreOffice is actively maintained, that OpenOffice.org is dead and Apache OpenOffice (Incubating) has not even released yet, I think there is an obvious conclusion from your statements. Well, no. After all, OpenOffice.org is not dead. It just got a new home. Regards, Andre Best, Bjoern
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hi Andre, On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 02:54:27PM +0100, Andre Fischer wrote: I can accept longwinding release cycles but not slow developement velocity. After all Sun/Oracle has been the biggest contributor for OpenOffice. LibreOffice is still integrating features made by Sun/Oracle (it has just been a month or two since my new Impress slide sorter turned up in LibreOffice.) Sorry, that wasnt meant to be derogative. I think we can agree upon Sun/Oracle being quite a bit more conservative wrt to how to implement changes, which resulted in a higher overhead to get features completed. A more aggressive use of the developer resources available to Sun/Oracle would have allowed much faster progress. You are right that our old release process was not the best. Still, I would choose friendlier words. I do not intend to offend the developers involved. But the fact that the *.deb files published the OOo website were rarely downloaded and didnt even install without some major tweaking on default installs show that *nix packaging was never a priority at OOo. Well, no. After all, OpenOffice.org is not dead. It just got a new home. The project OpenOffice.org is dead, the trademark obviously survived as it is currently owned by a different project with a different name: Apache OpenOffice (Incubating) Best, Bjoern
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
On 13.01.2012 15:37, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Hi Andre, On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 02:54:27PM +0100, Andre Fischer wrote: I can accept longwinding release cycles but not slow developement velocity. After all Sun/Oracle has been the biggest contributor for OpenOffice. LibreOffice is still integrating features made by Sun/Oracle (it has just been a month or two since my new Impress slide sorter turned up in LibreOffice.) Sorry, that wasnt meant to be derogative. I think we can agree upon Sun/Oracle being quite a bit more conservative wrt to how to implement changes, which resulted in a higher overhead to get features completed. Yes, as well as a higher code quality. A more aggressive use of the developer resources available to Sun/Oracle would have allowed much faster progress. I disagree. The same number of people would not have written more code. Of course, we could have released more often, but in the long run we would have produced the same amount of features and bug fixes. You are right that our old release process was not the best. Still, I would choose friendlier words. I do not intend to offend the developers involved. But the fact that the *.deb files published the OOo website were rarely downloaded and didnt even install without some major tweaking on default installs show that *nix packaging was never a priority at OOo. This may be one reason but it is certainly not the only one. OpenOffice is (today in the form of LibreOffice) included in all major Linux distributions. There is no need for the average user to download and install it again. Well, no. After all, OpenOffice.org is not dead. It just got a new home. The project OpenOffice.org is dead, the trademark obviously survived as it is currently owned by a different project with a different name: Apache OpenOffice (Incubating) Again, I disagree. Oracle gave the source code to the Apache Foundation to continue work on OpenOffice. Some time ago we at Apache voted on a name change and to drop the .org. But Apache has taken over the original code, the infrastructure, and a part of the community. So I personally think of OpenOffice under the ASF to be the continuation of OpenOffice under Oracle. And there is a lot of work going on to produce the first release of Apache OpenOffice, which will likely attract more people to join the Apache community. Regards, Andre
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Andre Fischer wrote: Yes, as well as a higher code quality. Metrics please, or didn't happen! ;) Cheers from the off, -- Thorsten pgpGf0wXp2F6G.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hmm... --- Ven 13/1/12, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com ha scritto: ... Well, no. After all, OpenOffice.org is not dead. It just got a new home. The project OpenOffice.org is dead, the trademark obviously survived as it is currently owned by a different project with a different name: Apache OpenOffice (Incubating) This common misconception is the reason why I prepared an educational banner: http://people.apache.org/~pfg/ApacheOO.gif cheers, Pedro. Best, Bjoern
AOOo in Debian/Ubuntu (Was: Re: /usr/bin/openoffice.org)
Hi 2012/1/8 Michael Stahl m...@openoffice.org: in this case i guess it's at the discretion of the distributions which of the 2 successors of the deceased OpenOffice.org they transition to (and given the lack of a release from Apache OpenOffice it shouldn't surprise anybody that currently LibreOffice is the more popular transition target). Your vision point is correct, Michael, and more. How in Debian, that is the base of many distros, removed the OOo based in two points: 1) doubt about the future of OOo; 2) a minimal team to maintain the package; was more easy to migrate to LibO. Today, only René, a Debian Developer, maintains the package there. Some time ago, i started the study about the packaging process, but today i stopped it. I think that if we show a stable package and adjust the build process to Debian, i believe that we can return to it, as more one package/project, giving for all derivated distros the AOOo again. Claudio
