RFC CR-000101 - request for comments - deadline 23 july 2004

2004-07-13 Thread Philippe AMELINE
Hi, Karsten and Christian,

Nice brain pingpong match ;o)

Don't you think that your vision depends on the feeling you get and the 
tools you are familiar with ?

In a pure object oriented model, dealing with hierarchies of object is natural.

However when it comes to knowledge management, it is more natural to shift 
to predicates, for example semantic networks.
Because it is usually not possible to define THE hierarchy : to keep on 
with the brain, you may succed in building an anatomical hierarchy, but 
when you will consider brain functions or brain diseases, you will have to 
build new hierarchies. All this hierarchical trees are inter-connected, and 
you have better replacing hierarchical traits with named traits (ie 
predicates).

I don't know if all this is relevant with openEHR ? (I mean does a system 
need to mimic what it should manage)

Regards

Philippe

  physical brain == carrier of knowledge == neurons, synapses etc. == 
 real world
But they are not interconnected in a hierarchy only, to the
best of my knowledge.

  The mind knows about itself and its physical carrier, the brain. But the
  functioning of the brain has nothing to do with the abstract concepts
  build within it.
I tend to think that Nature had no abstract concepts
in mind when building the brain. Rather abstract concepts
are what we with our limited ability to comprehend use to
reduce complex things to something we *can* understand, no ?
Eg. the brain simply IS but we use abstract concepts to
*describe* what we understand of it. Unless you want to reduce
those abstract concepts to Laws of Nature - which have nothing
much to do with why or whether the brain is internally connected
hierarchially or web-like.

Karsten
--
GPG key ID E4071346 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net
E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD  4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346
-
If you have any questions about using this list,
please send a message to d.lloyd at openehr.org

-
If you have any questions about using this list,
please send a message to d.lloyd at openehr.org



RFC CR-000101 - request for comments - deadline 23 july 2004

2004-07-13 Thread Christian Heller
Hi Philippe,

 Don't you think that your vision depends on the feeling you get and the
 tools you are familiar with ?

of course, everybody has a different vision of the world, depending on
how their brain was learned. The principle concepts of human thinking
(not physically in brain but logically in mind) however, are the same.

 In a pure object oriented model, dealing with hierarchies of object is
 natural.

Object hierarchies in memory, correct. But the problem is that hierarchy
as most fundamental abstraction was not worked in to OOP. If the designers
of Java, for example, had implemented the principle of hierarchy into
their framework, the top-most class java.lang.Object would be a CONTAINER:


| java.lang.Object |--
 |
 ^ 0..*  |
 |   |
 -

All inheriting types would be a hierarchy by default. Hundreds of
set/get/remove methods could be saved because they'd be inherited
from java.lang.Object. As another side-issue, the known problems
with container inheritance (http://www.norvig.com/java-iaq.html)
would disappear. See also http://www.josmc.org/bohl2003.pdf, section 5.1
(much of this paper is a bit out of date). Further reading includes
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz's Monades, see:
http://www.e-text.org/text/Leibnitz%20Gottfried%20Wilhelm%20-%20La%
20Monadologie.txt
(in french, but it also exist in english on the web).

Up to now I thought OpenEHR's archetype model was developed independently
from OO mechanisms and that OO principles would only be used in the
reference model. Thomas' great design paper from 3 years ago made me
assume so because it described ontologies as hierarchies of layers,
so I thought OpenEHR would consider each model (archetype) to be a
hierarchy. Anyway, I do.

 However when it comes to knowledge management, it is more natural to shift
 to predicates, for example semantic networks.
 Because it is usually not possible to define THE hierarchy : to keep on
 with the brain, you may succed in building an anatomical hierarchy, but
 when you will consider brain functions or brain diseases, you will have to
 build new hierarchies. All this hierarchical trees are inter-connected, and
 you have better replacing hierarchical traits with named traits (ie
 predicates).

I agree with that view. An application system is a collection of trees,
each representing a special concept. Only the last sentence is unclear
to me; a whole model names its part models _and_ is hierarchical.

Christian
-
If you have any questions about using this list,
please send a message to d.lloyd at openehr.org