MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
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MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
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MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
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MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
Hi, What I should offense to is health threating entities/events. I believe we have wisdom enough to fight against them. And then, it would be more constructive that we think about what we can do for healthcare and our community rather than what our community do for us. Having workshop and tutorials would be good contribution and make something happen to outreach. To Pablo and Latin Americans, I always respect your contributions and am much interested in your woks. I am looking forward to meeting you and sharing passion with us. To Bert, Thank you for proof-reading. English is too difficult for me, Japanese. My understanding is openEHR specs are oriented to base of the standards. Could you let me know the better phrase? Regards, Shinji KOBAYASHI 2014-10-25 8:51 GMT+09:00 Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl: In Europe, politicians are afraid to make errors, they are not able to judge if a specification has a high quality. So they go for standards. This is in many countries like this. That is why HL7 always try to standardize their efforts, and the higher the better. In Europe you go first to your national body, then to the European body, then to ISO. Alternatives with a little bit less status are Oasis, W3, OMG, and also from there you can go to ISO. I have never heard that OpenEhr tried to become a standard. In these ten years, they never did, or they did it in silence, or I just missed it, was on holiday when the announcement was done. But if I am right, then is that a reason why it will never become important on government-level in the Netherlands. And in many other countries this is the same. No politician in the Netherlands wil ever invest millions in a specification which did not made it to ISO. That is why the Netherlands invested 500 millions Euro in a HL7v3 standard. Because it is an ISO standard, or it was in the traject to become one. Really, 500 millions Euro, half a billion Euro. Just for a message system for the Netherlands, based on HL7v3. And the laugh, it failed. But that doesn't matter, the politicians are safe, they favored ISO standards. The companies are safe, they got their money, got well paid, and did what they were asked for. No one ever got fired for choosing an ISO standard. Why did it fail? Ten years they had spent 50 million Euro, every year. It is a long story, but I can summarize it in a few words. I think they did not want to succeed. They failed for political reasons, they did not want to do concessions with the majority in parliament. So the parliament blew it off. They had chosen to fail. It would be good for the OpenEhr developing companies if a OpenEhr did more to be acceptable for governments. Bert Op vrijdag 24 oktober 2014 heeft Dra Carola Hullin Lucay Cossio carolhullin at hotmail.com het volgende geschreven: Dear All, Please take this observation as a help DISCUSSION rather a critic: but the standards difinition is not an awareness issues, instead is a GAP between contexts. In Latino America and Caribe, there is minimal understanding of what a standard isas displayed on Pablo?s answer, so the real use of openEHR never is achieved because of this gap. I was last week in INFOLAC2014 ,where the goverment of Uruguay and several local authorities discussed about standards but the issue was a different one. So, I believe that OpenEHR as foundation and its initial team of founders of this conceptual and technical framework should lead the training contents and validity that developing countries are using. I was surprise that Uruguay invested 4 million dollars and the concept of openEHR was missing: lost of investment again. http://www.agesic.gub.uy/innovaportal/file/1443/1/agesic_agendadigital_2011_2015.pdf Hope this contextual information help to get a good quality training package from the foundation so then it can be shared around the world. Cheers Carol (LATAM) From: pazospablo at hotmail.com To: bert.verhees at rosa.nl; openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org Subject: Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 19:23:40 + Bert, I'm aware of the definition and I use terms in a very specific way, I said standard because that definition fits what openEHR is. Anyway, we are not discussing definitions but a much broader subject: the board being silent in front on community efforts that need them. Pablo Pazos www.CaboLabs.com -- Original message-- From: Bert Verhees Date: Fri, Oct 24, 2014 4:17 PM To: openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org; Subject:Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials OpenEHR is not a standard, it is a formal specification. http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards.htm ISO, What is a standard: A standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are
MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
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MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org -- This e-mail message is intended exclusively for the addressee(s). Please inform us immediately if you are not the addressee. ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20141025/43665522/attachment-0001.html
MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
On 25-10-14 02:54, Shinji KOBAYASHI wrote: To Bert, Thank you for proof-reading. English is too difficult for me, Japanese. My understanding is openEHR specs are oriented to base of the standards. Could you let me know the better phrase? Only strong men can admit their weaknesses. So this is a compliment for you. My English is not very good also, but I come from a language related to English, while you come from a completely other part of the languages-world. -- OpenEHR specs are based on standards, that is right, in fact everything in ICT is, but OpenEHR introduces new artifacts and reference models, which should be standardized or be in a process to standardization, which already poses some requirements regarding to documentation and formal definition. For example, you can express an OpenEHR dataset in XML, en XML is a standard, but the OpenEHR Reference Model is not. This in opposite to ISO13606 or some HL7 Reference Models, they are also ISO standard. So, to be accepted by an organization that requires standards, it is not enough to use XML, but also you should use an XML-Schema/Reference Model which is standardized. Just for illustration: I remember when ODF (OpenOffice Reference model) became an ISO-standard, governments all over Europe planned to switch to OpenOffice because they want to work on standards. Microsoft hurried and put in a lot of money to get their Office reference Model (OOXML) standardized. It was the fist time Microsoft ever was required to standardize something. We saw many new countries becoming voting member of ISO, like Malta and Sierra Leone, countries with no expertise or experience at all. The whole ISO-process regarding this was a farce. You should read about it for having a good laugh. The only reason was because the competition (OpenOffice) had done that. Since that moment, since the very fast ISO-process which took less then a year, government could safely choose for Microsoft again, back to the Microsoft Office environment. Same counts for medical Reference Models, many governments choose HL7, only because it is an ISO standard, and only for that reason. ISO makes it possible for politician which decide about things they don't understand (most of them have to) to distinguish quality in a safe way. Bert.
MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
On 25-10-14 05:21, pablo pazos wrote: Bottom line, I just see a gap between the foundation and the community, and that gap gets bigger because of language and geografical differences. That's why I created the openEHR course in spanish and the ES community. My proposal is just a help me help you situation. Working towards medinfo, I hope we can join ours efforts in creating awareness, but it is not clear for me if we should organize community stuff separated from the foundation stuff or if we can narrow the gap. I know you are doing a great job. I often see your promotion for course in Spanish, on LinkedIn, on Google Plus (maybe). I forgot where, but I see it a few times a week. That is really a good thing. And it is necessary. The specs are bad learning material, there are also not meant for that. I remember, ten years ago, sitting at the swimming pool with my little children, reading OpenEHR-specs. They were hard to read because of their formal language. It is no material for learning. In learning people things, you need to come with examples, with stories, let the Reference Models and other specs live for people, make it fun to read. Anyway, I came through, I did my best, and it was rewarded. But many people are not able to do that, because they do not have the freedom to spend 50 hours or so on something which is not required to learn. And reading the OpenEHR specs as a hobby in free time, that is asked too much for most of humanity. I am an independent developer, almost twenty years now. I choose myself how to spend my time, and a lot of time is used because I make choices which seem irrelevant. But I don't mind. I try to have a Buddhist view on it. It are all steps to greater wisdom. I am a lucky bastard. The master moves from program to program without fear. No failure can harm him. Why is this? He is filled with Tao. But for the other people, young people, needing to study for their masters, old managers, need to understand for their decisions, politicians, relying on ISO, all these people need easy entrance to knowledge. You try to get it of the ground. You should not only do it in Spanish, but also in English. I think you have a good business-case when OpenEHR as an formal definition tries to get more status. But you have a bad business-case if it fails on the market. It is not only in your hands. You can comfort yourself with the thought that nothing in life will be done in vain. In everything is a lesson. With the lessons you have learned, you later can pick up something else. But besides that, I hope the communities and foundation will support you, because it is important work that you do, for us all. If we want something to be a success, we have to reach the hearts and minds. Have a nice day Bert
MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
Hi Pablo, Firstly, I will be at MEDinfo2015 and would definitely hope to contribute some of the very interesting stuff emerging from HANDI-HOPD. I do recall our conversation about training and accreditation. Although I am on the Board, my response here is personal, not official! What you are suggesting is a very good idea, and was discussed further at the Oslo meeting. We know that a number of organisations around the world are now running openEHR related training, we know that trainees frequently ask for accreditation and trainers also see benefits in being able to claim they are 'openEHR accredited'. So if the Board was asked, is this a good idea, I am sure you would get a positive answer. However a whole number of questions follow ... Is the organisation accredited or the course accredited? Who decides the criteria for accreditation of a course? Does every small variant of a course need accredited? Who checks the course content? In multiple languages? What are the rules of withdrawing accreditation? Who pays for all of the above? How do we ensure that anything that is decided is fair to both existing trainers and to new entrants and how do we ensure that this system is seen to be fair and transparent and not open to abuse. I am sure there are many more questions, and, of course there are solutions. Other organisations have faced similar problems and come up with answers that we can almost certainly use or adapt. So, it is doable, but who does it? Who puts in the work and effort to consult with current training organisations, speak to the broader membership, also other organisations what they do etc, etc? Who comes up with a final proposal to submit to the Board that if seen to be fair and sensible will almost cvertainly by 'rubber-stamped'. In my view the only people who can do this are those of us who have a commercial or academic interest in training. It is in our interest to have accrediation working - it is something demanded by our customers, and in our commercial interest. We are the ones with the knowledge of what it takes to be a good openEHR course, the ones who stand to lose if the proposals are done favour a competitor, and the only ones who can give up some of our IP, if the idea is to share some 'standard' resources. The Board simply has no capacity to do the ground work here, and in any case that would be inappropriate. Their job is to ratify (or not) a set of proposals coming from the training industry, in exactly the same way that the System Accreditation proposals will have to come from System developers like yourself. I believe that Heather Leslie and Evelyn Hovenga have been working on some ideas in this area - it might be worth contacting them to see if this could be the nexus of a 'Training Partners Group'. I am having a similar conversation elsewhere about Localisation. There have been private conversations about localisation and Koray posted a very detailed proposal but that is not enough, there needs to be input from other localisation groups so that openEHR can come up with a minimum but clear set of criteria for localisation. That takes work and discussion with the various parties around the world who have an interest in this area, but it does have to member-led. In the coming months, the interim Board will be replaced by an Elected Board (everyone who wants to vote or be nominated should sign up at members.openehr.org) but even then, the level of funding and personal resource that will available, will require Foundation resources to be concentrated on core communications and 'marketing' of openEHR. As I say just my view. Others may feel that openEHR should have much more central power and resource to drive these important and necessary efforts but they will then have to figure out how it gets funded. I will leave my thoughts on Standards to a different post but remember that there was a major effort led by David and Sam to have openEHR become part of IHTSDO. This went a long way but was ultimately rejected byt the IHTSDO board. I suspect that will not be the end of the story. Ian -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20141025/e1aa2167/attachment.html
MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
On 24/10/2014 19:17, Bert Verhees wrote: OpenEHR is not a standard, it is a formal specification. http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards.htm ISO, What is a standard: A standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose. This is such a fun topic I wrote a blog post http://wolandscat.net/2014/10/25/what-is-a-standard-legislation-or-utilisation/ on it :) - thomas -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20141025/07e1967b/attachment.html
MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
On 25-10-14 13:58, Thomas Beale wrote: On 24/10/2014 19:17, Bert Verhees wrote: OpenEHR is not a standard, it is a formal specification. http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards.htm ISO, What is a standard: A standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose. This is such a fun topic I wrote a blog post http://wolandscat.net/2014/10/25/what-is-a-standard-legislation-or-utilisation/ on it :) - thomas ___ openEHR-technical mailing list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org I commented to it: I agree Thomas, it is a fun topic, with billions of dollars involved, not quite so funny for who is paying them. You and me, the taxpayers. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20141025/88a10da3/attachment-0001.html
MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials
://www.oceaninformatics.com/*Thomas Beale Chief Technology Officer* +44 7792 403 613Specification Program, /open/EHR http://www.openehr.org/ Honorary Research Fellow, UCL http://www.chime.ucl.ac.uk/ Chartered IT Professional Fellow, BCS http://www.bcs.org.uk/ Health IT blog http://wolandscat.net/category/health-informatics/ View Thomas Beale's profile on LinkedIn http://uk.linkedin.com/in/thomasbeale -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20141025/730c0f57/attachment.html -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ocean_full_small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4085 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20141025/730c0f57/attachment.jpg -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: btn_liprofile_blue_80x15.png Type: image/png Size: 511 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20141025/730c0f57/attachment.png
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