Fwd: Re: xml archetypes to xforms

[Ime Asangansi]

--- Ime Asangansi  wrote:

> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Ime Asangansi 
> Subject: Re: xml archetypes to xforms
> To: adam.flinton at nhs.net
> 
> Hi Adams,
> 
> Please find my comments below:
> 
> > I have the XForms Engine up on the OHT site but they're waiting to "go 
> > public" (I have no real idea what the delay is but)...hopefully 
> > anonymous access is an "any day now" event.
> > https://xmlprocess.projects.openhealthtools.org/
> 
> I have since downloaded but I had errors when I tried to run.
> I have sent you the tomcat log for your very kind scrutiny
> 
> 
> > This drill down is what is a bit of a pain at the moment were one to 
> > wish to open a template & then see a generated XForm GUI...
> 
> This would be the ultimate IMHO
> 
> > C) Wrt moving existing forms etc into Archetypes/templates etc what I've 
> > been playing with is OpenOffice as it's forms designer is XForms based & 
> > allows one to create a model/instance based form in a WYSIWYG way with 
> > all the niceties XForms offers wrt data analysis/mapping  e.g. types 
> > from both std XSD & your own schemas/simple types (e.g. restricting a 
> > length or applying a pattern). You can then map that model to the 
> > relevant templates/archetypes while allowing the users to be sure that 
> > you've captured all the fields that their current form captures. In a 
> > very neat move you can even exports that form as an Adobe pdf form.
> 
> cool... uh..
> 
> > D) What has raised itself as I've been playing with concepts to do with 
> > this is that you should be able to create a form at the lowest possible 
> > level & then accrete them into a whole i.e. a template/archetype should 
> > have it's own xform
> 
> This is really interesting to hear (in the absence of a template 
> specification, Adam.
> Here you are kind of talking about archetype xforms.
> I am really wondering how you convert those constraints stuff in the 
> definition part of the
> archetype into some cool xforms stuff.
> Adam, I didnt contribute to the archetype specs neither do I fully understand 
> it... but I kinda
> think this is the core issue
> 
> > which is locatable e.g. archFileName_xform.xhtml 
> > which then includes...etc. i.e. if I open a template xform & the xform 
> > contains other templates/archetypes etc it would be nice to simply load 
> > them via linking (e.g. xlink or similar) rather than some sort of 
> > involved drill down & render approach.
> > 
> > i.e. for a given archetype/template, the XForm is just for that 
> > archetype/tamplate & then includes the relevant form for the relevant 
> > child archetype/template etc.
> > 
> > an example is that you might have an "A&E admissions form" with a 
> > select1 tick box & a set of choices e.g. "has: head wound chest wound 
> > leg wound" & if you click head wound you would want to see the head 
> > wound form.
> > 
> > e.g.
> > 
> > http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2006/08/using-subforms-in-xforms.html
> > 
> > 
> > It is possible that the operational template as per:
> > 
> > "- the XML templates should probably become .xts (ts = template
> > 
> > specification), because there will also be an operational template file, 
> > which is a template with all substitutions done, with an extension like 
> > .xot (ot = operational template) or .xtom (tom = template object model). 
> > The current 'templates' are template 'specifications', i.e. a set of 
> > differences with respect to archetypes. The 'operational' form is what 
> > can be used to create message definitions from, and can be used at runtime."
> 
> cool
> 
> 
> Thanks, Adam, for this
> 
> Cheers,
> Ime
> 
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xml archetypes to xforms

[Ime Asangansi]

Hmm... yes, thanks for that correction
looking forward to that...

Ime

--- Thomas Beale  wrote:

> Ime Asangansi wrote:
> > Hi Adams et al,
> >
> > Nice to hear that.
> > But I think the tough issue is converting the archetypes xml to xforms.
> > Please how do you do that?
> > especially converting the definition section...
> >
> there are already answers to this, but you don't want to convert 
> archetypes to Xforms, you want to convert openEHR Templates. The new 
> specifications for templates are underway and drafts will be available 
> in the next few weeks.
> 
> - thomas beale
> 
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> 


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xml archetypes to xforms

[Ime Asangansi]

Hi Adams et al,

Nice to hear that.
But I think the tough issue is converting the archetypes xml to xforms.
Please how do you do that?
especially converting the definition section...

Just to add this: we are shifting from Infopath... It has never been a nice 
thing to be locked into that.

Thats why, Adam, it would be interesting to see you guys put this OSS too. You 
said (some time ago) that you were waiting for the OHT. Please how is that 
going now?

Thanks

Cheers,
Ime


Adam Flinton  wrote: Ime Asangansi wrote:
> Hi Lisa, Thilo et al,
>
> Really appreciate your comments... I have the impression that much 
> still has to be done about Xforms...
> OpenMRS is based on infopath for now, so I am now looking at 
> archetypes as form templates (.xtp files). These are relatively 
> reusable form parts and are analogous to form parts. Beginning to put 
> my thoughts on a blog at asangansi.blogspot.com.
> Will have to map the datatypes to control types...
> etc


We have built a generic XForms engines which uses Chiba to render the 
XForm into XHTML + Ajax etc.


Adam


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xml archetypes to xforms

[Ime Asangansi]

Hi Lisa, Thilo et al,

Really appreciate your comments... I have the impression that much still has to 
be done about Xforms...
OpenMRS is based on infopath for now, so I am now looking at archetypes as form 
templates (.xtp files). These are relatively reusable form parts and are 
analogous to form parts. Beginning to put my thoughts on a blog at 
asangansi.blogspot.com.
Will have to map the datatypes to control types...
etc

Ime

Thilo Schuler  wrote: Hey Lisa, ime et al

back from skiing - had 6 sunny days and time.

Thanks for the valuable replies.

Comments inline...



>  Hi Ime, Thilo and all
>
>  We investigated using XForms for automatically-generated data entry GUIs
>  last year. There are some features of XForms which made it seem
>  particularly well suited to the task: a lot of built-in entry data
>  validation, ability to validate data against a schema embedded in the
>  XForms definition, ability to decouple the connection between an input
>  widget and the target item in the schema by using an XForms binding
>  item... not to mention being a completely open, platform-independent and
>  XML-based standard (even if there's very limited browser support thus
>  far), etc. It was a while ago, so I have probably forgotten some other pros.

IBM enlists these reasons for XFrorms:

#  XForms is a W3C XML Standard;
#  XForms is XML and submits XML;
#  XForms uses W3C XML Schema for validation and data integrity;
#  XForms uses W3C XPath for data references;
#  XForms is a Model-View-Control (MVC) architecture;
#  XForms uses W3C XML Events for loose coupling;
#  XForms can be embedded in other host languages;
#  XForms rendering is decided "on the glass" (write once, render anywhere);
#  XForms reduces/eliminates need for scripting;
#  XForms decreases client/server traffic; and
#  XForms encodes dependencies in data and validates that data is
declaratively and relatively easily.

Their XForms <-> DB2 Demos
(http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/DB2pureXMLDemo/) are fascinating
but also seem very 'hacky'. Look for example at the HL7 CDA one at
http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/DB2pureXMLDemo/hl7CDAXForms/XFormsDemo.xhtml

>
>  But gradually it came to feel like we were trying to force XForms to do
>  something it is too generic/low-level to be suited to. The main
>  challenges were:
>  1. The existing XForms implementations were generally immature/flaky or
>  not in line with the latest XForms specification.

Have gotten better but still don't support the whole XForms 1.1 specs.
Especially if you try non trivial stuff the chances for bug increase
rapidly

>  2. The openEHR DATA_VALUE types are of a larger grain than most of the
>  XForms widgets, so more than one XForm widget, more than one databinding
>  and more than one binding constraint had to be defined per openEHR
>  ELEMENT. That made the XForms definition very verbose and complicated to
>  read as code.

Here encapsulting the code as a custom XBL widget could help -> hides
complexity. This would also allow to do hidden (from the XForms markup
point of view), well-tested scripting where XForms capabilities are
not enough.

Here is an example of a simple XBL widget:
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-xformsrte/

Currently only the Firefox XForms extension and partly the Formsplayer
IE-plugin support XBL. And since it hasn't been used much also a good
chance of flakyness...

Here are two links describing using XBL in the above mentioned XForms
engines: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/XForms:Custom_Controls
and http://www.formsplayer.com/node/378

>  3. The set of XForms widgets available seemed very limiting when it came
>  to creating graphic entry controls for certain data values or with
>  complex value constraints. For example, we never successfully created a
>  mechanism to populate an externally coded term (would have had to query
>  a terminology web service) using XForms widgets and events. It may be
>  possible, but not at all trivial.

Again a well written and tested XBL custom widget could do the job

>  4. It was a particularly challenging task to model the AOM constraints
>  (for each ELEMENT) as XForms binding constraints and so we experimented
>  with adding the value constraints directly as from the AOM schema using
>  the XForms extension module (but this required an XForms engine that
>  could understand the AOM extensions to really test it and no such engine
>  exists *yet*)

What do you mean by XForms extension module?
Do you want to add own elements or attributes (in a separate
namespace)? IMO, in such a case you would need to create your own
XForms engine (or build on an existing one) that understands these
add-ons. This is an example:
http://www.fh-oow.de/institute/iapg/personen/brinkhoff/paper/W2GIS2007.pdf


>
>  NB: For #4 it doesn't necessarily matter if you don't want to
>  apply/validate the AOM constraints on the client side, but I think it is
>  important in most cases to have these constraints con

xml archetypes to xforms

[Ime Asangansi]

Thilo and others,

Thanks for this remarkable and engaging read!
This will come in helpful in the project...

BTW: This is a really supportive community

But it will be nice to hear from the guys who did the things you outlined...
It will be nice to have such a project... it will also be a step towards a pure 
full blown open-source openehr implementation

rgds,
Ime

Thilo Schuler  wrote: Hi Ime and others

XForms is an intriguing technology and IMHO (and others' !) it seems
very suited to generate forms from templates and their underlying
archetypes .

I will first point you to two recent sources where XForms where
mentioned within the openEHR community:
1. Wiki (look in the comments area):
http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/dev/User+Interface+and+openEHR+data
2. Mailing list thread:
http://www.openehr.org/mailarchives/openehr-technical/msg03208.html

So there are several people that have thought about or have actually
implemented code regarding XForms & openEHR archetypes. I will try to
list the relevant people that I know of:
1. Carl Alfon from Link?ping University (Sweden) currently writes a
thesis on "Archetype based EHR GUI". In his practical work he
generates XForms using the openEHR ADL parser plus custom code.
2. Adam Flinton from the NHS has an "complete Xml forms engine" which
can be used with (besides others) XForms ("Chiba to render into
Ajax-ified html"). He also offered that this could be open-sourced.
3. Lisa Thurston from Ocean Informatics wrote a set of
customizable/extendable XSLT scripts that creates a generic read-only
view of openEHR instance data.
4. Heath Frankel (programming lead at Ocean Informatics) and I have
thought about using the Template Data Schemas (TDS) that can be
generated from templates (using the template designer) as the basis
for the XForms model. Tests are needed whether the currenty availble
XForms engine implementations support such complex nested schemas...
5. Myself, I have the humble goal (because I have so little time) of
writing a XForms GUI for a small template with only a couple of
archetypes that connects directly to an IBM DB2 server via web
services. Will start with a static one but finally generating it would
be awesome... A first test with a trivial 4 field form was successful
in retrieving and uploading data from the DB2 server.
6. There are a couple of more ppl generally interested in openEHR
GUIs: Helma van der Linden (University of Maastricht), Erik Sundval
(University of Link?ping) and Sam Heard & Hugh Leslie from Ocean
Informatics.

I think we should join forces and create a sub-project to share ideas
and maybe code for an "openEHR XForms Toolkit". I have proposed this
in December already but have been slack & busy.

What is everybody's opinion (especially the people listed) on such a project?

Regarding GUI generation in general Hugh has argued that it won't
necessarily will be the most usable forms. I think that this is true
(and for complex data entry in complicated clinical workflows it will
propably never change) and in that case the generated GUI would be a
good start to for further hand-coded customization ("scaffolding GUI
code"). However one day we might be surprised by the power of XForms
especially once the engines have become even better and special
openEHR widget extensions are available (see again
http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2007/isbn9789512285662/isbn9789512285662.pdf).

Will be on a long anticipated and much needed skiing holiday for the
next 7 days, so won' t be able to reply until I return.

Cheers, Thilo

PS: See one more remark inline.

On Feb 9, 2008 4:50 PM, Ime Asangansi  wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I am working on a project that might involve generating xforms from
> archetypes. While there are many possibilities in doing this (including an
> internal form schema designer within the OpenMRS that is infopath-based),
> before making design decisions, I would really like to learn from people who
> are using archetypes to drive Xforms generation for their app.
> And how is the seemingly complex archetype 'definition' part handled?
>
> Also I would really like to know how the interface in the Ocean/LiU editors
> are generated?
> XSLT or ...?

No XSLT but going recursively through the object model in the kernel
component to create a certain widget for every datatype at the leaf
nodes. But others know better.

>
> Thirdly, has or is any one working on translating openehr archetype based
> messages to HL7 v2? I might need to translate (or transform) Xml data to
> HL7.
>
> Thanks, in anticipation.
>
> rgds,
> Ime
>
>
>
>
>  
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xml archetypes to xforms

[Ime Asangansi]

Hi everybody,

I am working on a project that might involve generating xforms from archetypes. 
While there are many possibilities in doing this (including an internal form 
schema designer within the OpenMRS that is infopath-based), before making 
design decisions, I would really like to learn from people who are using 
archetypes to drive Xforms generation for their app.
And how is the seemingly complex archetype 'definition' part handled?

Also I would really like to know how the interface in the Ocean/LiU editors are 
generated?
XSLT or ...?

Thirdly, has or is any one working on translating openehr archetype based 
messages to HL7 v2? I might need to translate (or transform) Xml data to HL7.

Thanks, in anticipation.

rgds,
Ime



   
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xml archetypes

[Ime Asangansi]

Sam,

Thanks a lot.
I'll be back with questions...

Ime

Sam Heard  wrote:Hi Ime
 
 http://www.openehr.org/releases/1.0.1/its/XML-schema/index.html
 
 For the AM, two schemas are provided:

   Archetype - types from the Archetype Object Model (AOM) (xsd file) 
 
 
 Ime Asangansi wrote: Hi all,
   
 I am involved in an internship project with the OpenMRS (www.openmrs.org) that 
involves the integration of this open source web application medical record 
system with OpenEHR archetypes. My work is to provide only a proof of concept 
for the OpenEHR modelling approach by allowing implementers use OpenMRS to 
consume archetypes as they build forms.
   
 My observation is that it is much easier to work with the xml archetypes 
(generated in the editors) than the ADL. 
 My question: is there any xml schema definition for these archetypes? and the 
templates? And please kindly where can I find them?
 Will there be a specification for xml?
   
 Thanks a lot.
   
 Cheers,
 Ime
   
   
   
 Skype: asangansiime
 http://www.wiki.ehealthpedia.org/User:Asangansi
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xml archetypes

[Ime Asangansi]

Hi all,

I am involved in an internship project with the OpenMRS (www.openmrs.org) that 
involves the integration of this open source web application medical record 
system with OpenEHR archetypes. My work is to provide only a proof of concept 
for the OpenEHR modelling approach by allowing implementers use OpenMRS to 
consume archetypes as they build forms.

My observation is that it is much easier to work with the xml archetypes 
(generated in the editors) than the ADL. 
My question: is there any xml schema definition for these archetypes? and the 
templates? And please kindly where can I find them?
Will there be a specification for xml?

Thanks a lot.

Cheers,
Ime



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http://www.wiki.ehealthpedia.org/User:Asangansi
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persistence

[Ime Asangansi]

Thanks a lot Bert and Tim and others,

Tim, It will be interesting to explore your option. Object dbs are getting more 
popular now.

Bert, thanks for being very frank with the issues. I will think over the 
possibilites (vis-a-vis my still-small programming experience). I would support 
your open-source approach. I am (still) thinking of working on an open source 
project. I  dont think anything stops anyone (openehr license-wise) from making 
an open persistence product.

Another option might be xml persistence, xindice-based. but I fear the speed 
issues with xml (in large dbs).

Cheers,
Ime

openehr-technical-request at openehr.org wrote:

Ime Asangansi schreef:
> HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
A bit early (13 hours to go to the new year, overhere), No problem.

There are many possibilities for persistence-layers, all solutions have
pro's and con's,  for example
- as Tim suggested, a object database
- hibernate
- mimic hibernate-architecture in code (this is a part of my solution,
it is much work, but I have everything under control)
- blob's in relational-database
- hybride between blob's and relational
- dump objects to XML
- more hybrid's possible
- add extra indexes for OLAP

etc, etc.

It also depends what your purpose is, and will be, how about scalability
(small scale gives you possibilities which can better be avoided in
large scale)

But whatever you choose, you have to buy it or build it yourself,
because no one is publishing his solution.
If you build one by yourself, I like to advise you that you take the
java-code as a good source of inspiration, but feel free to change
small, but important things.

The immutability in the java-kernel can sometimes stand in your way,
when this happens to you
My solution is therefore, use what is usable for you, but do not let
your choice restrict you to that choice.

I have build a persistence layer, first in hibernate, but there were
some problems, I switched to my own solution.

Best thing (IMHO) to achieve would be an abstract and small persistence
layer, open sourced, to which the kernel can connect, and below, very
many choices of possible solutions can connect.

This would have some strong advantages:
- the reference kernel could be used unchanged to everyone, it could
really be shared code, which, for now, in my case, it is not
- problems in design, which reflect to the kernel code, especially its
immutability, could be solved, which are not solved now.

I suggest this every three months on this list, but the discussion
always dies without explicit mentioned reason.

It is not that I give up, I can go my own way, no problem, the specs are
in the documents, not in the reference java implementation, I use what I
can use from the kernel, I thank Rong and others for their great job,
but it is a pity, we can not work together.

I believe, it is rather sensitive, because, when you publish a
persistence-layer, you have a full blown product, which others can use,
I think, people fear to put their self out of business if they publish
too much knowledge. That, I beleive is the reason because the
discussions about this subject often die.

Those are my feelings about the situation, there is a chance that I am
wrong.

kind regards, and we, have a happy new year, in about 13 hours.
Bert Verhees



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persistence

[Ime Asangansi]

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

My question is on persistence layer for openehr java.
I was wondering if any body could give me a link to such.

Also, is it possibe to generate a hibernate mapping for the openehr java 
classes for use for a db schema. In other words, does the openehr classes 
include a data model layer.

(Apologies if its a stupid question but please someone kindly elucidate)

Cheers,
Ime

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: path of ArchetypeInternalRef (Bert Verhees)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:17:03 +0100
From: Bert Verhees 
Subject: Re: path of ArchetypeInternalRef
To: For openEHR technical discussions 
Message-ID: <476B767F.2090605 at rosa.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Sam Heard schreef:
> Heath has said it how it is:
>
> Archetype paths - that is the path to each node in an archetype - is
> unique. This is what the ADL statement you have seen refers to.
>
> In data, in contrast, an individual archetype node which has
> occurrences set as (1...2) in the archetype could exist twice in the
> data. That is what occurrences of 2 means. How then to differentiate
> between the two instances of this node. The answer is in the name of
> that thing - which can be coded or free text. What this means is that
> you can ask for something in the data as a specific instance (unique)
> which may have a name in the path as well as the archetype_node_id's -
> for example:
>
> /items[at0002 and name/value="xxx"]
>
> or as a path as in the archetype
>
> /items[at0002]
>
> which will return all instances of the node.
>
> Both paths transform to XPath in a very straightforward manner and
> give the same results.
>
> Hope this is helpful.
Thanks Sam, for explaining, so, if I may resume:

If you have a node in your ADL
/items[0002]

and you have a node
/items[0003]

and /items[0003] contains a Internalref to items/[0002], what will be
the ADL-path?

My guess is, in cADL it will be /items[0003] (because, that is the
location of the internalref)
In data it will be /items[0002] with a "name"-qualifier.

Is that correct?

Thanks, Bert


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