Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Jon Phillips]

That would be great!

On Sun, 2008-08-10 at 17:04 +0100, Dave Crossland wrote:
> 2008/8/10 Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > And so we have it :) Then I'll keep this to my self...post away Gustavo!
> 
> Sadly he told me offlist he unsubscribed this afternoon.
> 
> If he starts blogging, I will ask if he would allow us to set
> planet.openfontlibrary.org (currently testing at
> www.planet.open-fonts.org :-) to consume it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Dave Crossland]

2008/8/10 Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> And so we have it :) Then I'll keep this to my self...post away Gustavo!

Sadly he told me offlist he unsubscribed this afternoon.

If he starts blogging, I will ask if he would allow us to set
planet.openfontlibrary.org (currently testing at
www.planet.open-fonts.org :-) to consume it.

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Jon Phillips]

And so we have it :) Then I'll keep this to my self...post away Gustavo!

Jon

On Sun, 2008-08-10 at 13:45 +0100, Dave Crossland wrote:
> 2008/8/9 Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > your posts, while informative, do
> > not help us fix bugs or move the openfontlibrary.org towards supporting
> > even the basic features we would like.
> > ...
> > please don't post here on this list. blog it.
> 
> I actually find Gustavo's rare posts here quite useful, sometimes he
> points out things going on that I've missed, and also sometimes we
> have a small but interesting discussion about some thing which hasn't
> been discussed yet.
> 
> The list is openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org, not
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], so its scope is very
> broad IMO; any discussion about fonts ought to be welcome here.
> 
> Gustavo has said he's not interested in contributing actively to the
> project, and that's okay, because he does contribute to the project in
> a fairly unique way; as a critic from the professional type design
> community. I hope he continues to subscribe to the list, contribute
> his thoughts to discussions, and post links that he feels may be of
> interest :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Dave Crossland]

2008/8/9 Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> your posts, while informative, do
> not help us fix bugs or move the openfontlibrary.org towards supporting
> even the basic features we would like.
> ...
> please don't post here on this list. blog it.

I actually find Gustavo's rare posts here quite useful, sometimes he
points out things going on that I've missed, and also sometimes we
have a small but interesting discussion about some thing which hasn't
been discussed yet.

The list is openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org, not
[EMAIL PROTECTED], so its scope is very
broad IMO; any discussion about fonts ought to be welcome here.

Gustavo has said he's not interested in contributing actively to the
project, and that's okay, because he does contribute to the project in
a fairly unique way; as a critic from the professional type design
community. I hope he continues to subscribe to the list, contribute
his thoughts to discussions, and post links that he feels may be of
interest :-)

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Jon Phillips]

Ok, great. What fonts have you uploaded to the site? Of course, the more
font designers we have on the site and who get paid, the better we are.

I think overall on this list we need to get more focused on developing
the site. Yes, of course, fonts are number one priority, but none of
this matters if our site is shit.

Jon

On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 12:06 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
> my point is: i don't want to discuss, i want to work on fonts. *that*  
> is my job.
> 
> sorry for misspelling your name.
> 
> 
> On Aug 9, 2008, at 11:56 AM, Jon Phillips wrote:
> 
> > Gustavo, I'm not telling you want to do, but offering helpful
> > suggestions that would help us construct a better project. This  
> > list is
> > to develop the openfontlibrary.org and your posts, while  
> > informative, do
> > not help us fix bugs or move the openfontlibrary.org towards  
> > supporting
> > even the basic features we would like.
> >
> > more below.
> >
> > On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 11:46 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
> >> dear john,
> >>
> >> please don't tell me what to do. thanks.
> >
> >> i don't care about the open font library (and i have already
> >> explained why).
> >
> > Ok, then please don't post here on this list. blog it.
> >
> >> i am a type-designer, i care about fonts (open or not) and their
> >> typographic quality.
> >
> > great.
> >
> >> in my humble oppinion, you would be of much more help to the free/
> >> open font cause if you would direct your energy at raising funds to
> >> pay professional type-designers to work on free/open fonts. (but i've
> >> said that already too...)
> >
> > This list is openfontlibrary.org which is list to construct/develop
> > openfontlibrary first. So, I've put my energy, when available to do
> > this.
> >
> > While great to pay designers, that is not highest priority to get
> > openfontlibrary.org working well -> coding is!
> >
> > We need people to help build the site, not just link dump on this
> > development list.
> >
> >> regards,
> >> - gustavo.
> >>
> >> ps: what are "font 2.0 sites"?
> >
> > Made that up. Meaning, font sites that use web 2.0 tech. There are  
> > lots
> > like you often url dump onto this list.
> >
> > If you would like to discuss this further, lets take offlist.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >>
> >> On Aug 9, 2008, at 2:34 AM, Jon Phillips wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gustavo, one way you could help is by putting a listing of these
> >>> awesome
> >>> new font 2.0 sites up on the OFLB wiki...then we can track things  
> >>> that
> >>> are free and/or open and what features OFLB needs.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 21:58 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
>  http://www.fontembedding.com/
> 
>  curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)
> 
>  regards,
>  - gustavo.
> 
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
> > -- 
> > Jon Phillips
> > San Francisco, CA + Guangzhou + Beijing
> > GLOBAL +1.415.830.3884
> > CHINA +86.1.360.282.8624
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://www.rejon.org
> > IM/skype: kidproto
> > Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> 
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Gustavo Ferreira]

my point is: i don't want to discuss, i want to work on fonts. *that*  
is my job.

sorry for misspelling your name.


On Aug 9, 2008, at 11:56 AM, Jon Phillips wrote:

> Gustavo, I'm not telling you want to do, but offering helpful
> suggestions that would help us construct a better project. This  
> list is
> to develop the openfontlibrary.org and your posts, while  
> informative, do
> not help us fix bugs or move the openfontlibrary.org towards  
> supporting
> even the basic features we would like.
>
> more below.
>
> On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 11:46 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
>> dear john,
>>
>> please don't tell me what to do. thanks.
>
>> i don't care about the open font library (and i have already
>> explained why).
>
> Ok, then please don't post here on this list. blog it.
>
>> i am a type-designer, i care about fonts (open or not) and their
>> typographic quality.
>
> great.
>
>> in my humble oppinion, you would be of much more help to the free/
>> open font cause if you would direct your energy at raising funds to
>> pay professional type-designers to work on free/open fonts. (but i've
>> said that already too...)
>
> This list is openfontlibrary.org which is list to construct/develop
> openfontlibrary first. So, I've put my energy, when available to do
> this.
>
> While great to pay designers, that is not highest priority to get
> openfontlibrary.org working well -> coding is!
>
> We need people to help build the site, not just link dump on this
> development list.
>
>> regards,
>> - gustavo.
>>
>> ps: what are "font 2.0 sites"?
>
> Made that up. Meaning, font sites that use web 2.0 tech. There are  
> lots
> like you often url dump onto this list.
>
> If you would like to discuss this further, lets take offlist.
>
> Jon
>
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2008, at 2:34 AM, Jon Phillips wrote:
>>
>>> Gustavo, one way you could help is by putting a listing of these
>>> awesome
>>> new font 2.0 sites up on the OFLB wiki...then we can track things  
>>> that
>>> are free and/or open and what features OFLB needs.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 21:58 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
 http://www.fontembedding.com/

 curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)

 regards,
 - gustavo.

>>
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>> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
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> Jon Phillips
> San Francisco, CA + Guangzhou + Beijing
> GLOBAL +1.415.830.3884
> CHINA +86.1.360.282.8624
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>

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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Jon Phillips]

Gustavo, I'm not telling you want to do, but offering helpful
suggestions that would help us construct a better project. This list is
to develop the openfontlibrary.org and your posts, while informative, do
not help us fix bugs or move the openfontlibrary.org towards supporting
even the basic features we would like.

more below.

On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 11:46 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
> dear john,
> 
> please don't tell me what to do. thanks.

> i don't care about the open font library (and i have already  
> explained why).

Ok, then please don't post here on this list. blog it.

> i am a type-designer, i care about fonts (open or not) and their  
> typographic quality.

great.

> in my humble oppinion, you would be of much more help to the free/ 
> open font cause if you would direct your energy at raising funds to  
> pay professional type-designers to work on free/open fonts. (but i've  
> said that already too...)

This list is openfontlibrary.org which is list to construct/develop
openfontlibrary first. So, I've put my energy, when available to do
this. 

While great to pay designers, that is not highest priority to get
openfontlibrary.org working well -> coding is!

We need people to help build the site, not just link dump on this
development list.

> regards,
> - gustavo.
> 
> ps: what are "font 2.0 sites"?

Made that up. Meaning, font sites that use web 2.0 tech. There are lots
like you often url dump onto this list.

If you would like to discuss this further, lets take offlist.

Jon

> 
> On Aug 9, 2008, at 2:34 AM, Jon Phillips wrote:
> 
> > Gustavo, one way you could help is by putting a listing of these  
> > awesome
> > new font 2.0 sites up on the OFLB wiki...then we can track things that
> > are free and/or open and what features OFLB needs.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 21:58 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
> >> http://www.fontembedding.com/
> >>
> >> curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)
> >>
> >> regards,
> >> - gustavo.
> >>
> 
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Gustavo Ferreira]

dear john,

please don't tell me what to do. thanks.

i don't care about the open font library (and i have already  
explained why).

i am a type-designer, i care about fonts (open or not) and their  
typographic quality.

in my humble oppinion, you would be of much more help to the free/ 
open font cause if you would direct your energy at raising funds to  
pay professional type-designers to work on free/open fonts. (but i've  
said that already too...)

regards,
- gustavo.

ps: what are "font 2.0 sites"?


On Aug 9, 2008, at 2:34 AM, Jon Phillips wrote:

> Gustavo, one way you could help is by putting a listing of these  
> awesome
> new font 2.0 sites up on the OFLB wiki...then we can track things that
> are free and/or open and what features OFLB needs.
>
> Jon
>
> On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 21:58 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
>> http://www.fontembedding.com/
>>
>> curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)
>>
>> regards,
>> - gustavo.
>>

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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Jon Phillips]

Gustavo, one way you could help is by putting a listing of these awesome
new font 2.0 sites up on the OFLB wiki...then we can track things that
are free and/or open and what features OFLB needs.

Jon

On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 21:58 -0300, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
> http://www.fontembedding.com/
> 
> curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)
> 
> regards,
> - gustavo.
> 
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Liam R E Quin]

On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 10:11 +0100, Dave Crossland wrote:
> 2008/7/25 Liam R E Quin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
[...]
> I apologies for being hasty with that email, and retract the statement
> that Bitstream isn't involved in W3C at all. Sorry.
OK

> What I meant way, Bitstream are not involved in the W3C CSS Working
> Group, where it seems EOT is being considered.
Although that's true, EOT is not currently being worked on by any
W3C Working Group as far as I know.

> [...] how XSL would involve EOT, I have no
> idea :-
By linking to an EOT font, or including one, in an XSL-FO instance.

You could think of an XSL-FO instance as a sort of XML-based page
description language, except that the final formatting, pagination and
line-breaking hasn't been done yet.

Liam

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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Dave Crossland]

2008/7/25 Liam R E Quin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 00:35 +0100, Dave Crossland wrote:
> [...]
>> Bitstream hold plenty of software patents on all this stuff, and they
>> aren't involved in the W3C, so anyone who wants to implement anything
>> like EOT is going to be screwed by them.
>
> Bitstream (as I've mentioned to you before) is an active W3C Member.
> Please don't spread unsubstantiated rumours.

I apologies for being hasty with that email, and retract the statement
that Bitstream isn't involved in W3C at all. Sorry.

What I meant way, Bitstream are not involved in the W3C CSS Working
Group, where it seems EOT is being considered. You told me a while ago
that they are involved in the XSL Working Group. Please correct me if
I'm wrong, but the W3C patent policy only makes patent holding members
grant patent licenses for technologies that they are involved in the
Working Group for.

Therefore, Bitstream's patents regarding EOT are not deused by being
in the XSL Working Group; and how XSL would involve EOT, I have no
idea :-)

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Liam R E Quin]

On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 00:35 +0100, Dave Crossland wrote:
[...]
> Bitstream hold plenty of software patents on all this stuff, and they
> aren't involved in the W3C, so anyone who wants to implement anything
> like EOT is going to be screwed by them.

Bitstream (as I've mentioned to you before) is an active W3C Member.

Please don't spread unsubstantiated rumours.

Thanks,

Liam

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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Dave Crossland]

2008/7/24 Christopher Fynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Dave Crossland wrote:
>
 They say that EOT will be a W3C specification.
>>> 
>> Microsoft can submit whatever they want to the W3C, that doesn't mean
>> it WILL become a specification.
>
> Adobe are supporting this as well - and from what I've heard it has
> fairly widespread support.

Depends who you ask, and what you mean by 'support.' Tom Phinney's
informal poll asked mainly proprietary-minded type designers and web
designers, and he dismissed the "disproportionally small but vocal"
critics. And although Adobe and Microsoft are pushing this behind the
scenes, there has been no favorable commentary on the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailing list. Web developers understand why DRM is a plague on all our
houses, at least.

And the comments in the blog at FontEmbedding.com is also full of
unfavorable remarks.

> I'm wondering how restrictive or enforceable this is?

IANAL, and I'm not in a country with this stuff. But I've heard
Bitstream people voice an expectation for their pound of flesh.

> So far they don't seem
> to have taken any successful action to stop EOT & Microsoft's WEFT which has
> already been around for ten years

Microsoft and Bitstream almost certainly have a blanket patent cross
licensing deal. The only other developer to use the ideas monopolised
by their patents was Netscape, who also licensed the patent - and
Bitstream's implementation too, in fact.

> Meanwhile
> Bitstream seem have stopped pushing their PFR for web font embedding  (which
> anyway did not work complex scripts) - and seem to be concentrating on it's
> use in Digital Video and embedded devices.

Since web-browsers are a core part of Digital Video and embedded
devices, this is foreboding.

> seem to imply that this gets round the original font license.

All that is historic IMO: The proprietary beasts are so archaic, when
Bitstream was doing this 15 years ago they didn't want it done at all,
and Bitstream had to work around them.

> Of course Microsoft, Monotype, & Adobe also have number of patents of their
> own related to font embedding .

These are covered by the W3C's patent release, which is friendly to
free software.

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Christopher Fynn]

Dave Crossland wrote:

> 2008/7/23 Christopher Fynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> These are the same people that released the report trashing free fonts

> They were shit-talking proprietary software redistributable at zero
> price - "freeware" - and all the problems they identify would be
> solvable if those fonts were not proprietary

Agreed.

>>> They say that EOT will be a W3C specification.
>> Microsoft's Embedded OpenType (.EOT) Font Format Submission Request to W3C:
>> 
> 
> Microsoft can submit whatever they want to the W3C, that doesn't mean
> it WILL become a specification.

Adobe are supporting this as well - and from what I've heard it has
fairly widespread support.

> Bitstream hold plenty of software patents on all this stuff, and they
> aren't involved in the W3C, so anyone who wants to implement anything
> like EOT is going to be screwed by them.

The main Bitstream Patents related to this seems to be 5,577,177 
"Apparatus and methods for creating and using portable fonts" which goes 
back to 1995 - I'm wondering how restrictive or enforceable this is? So 
far they don't seem to have taken any successful action to stop EOT & 
Microsoft's WEFT which has already been around for ten years. Why woud 
that change now? Meanwhile Bitstream seem have stopped pushing their PFR 
for web font embedding  (which anyway did not work complex scripts) - 
and seem to be concentrating on it's use in Digital Video and embedded 
devices.

Bitstream's  Own TrueDoc / PFR blurb
http://www.bitstream.com/font_rendering/products/truedoc/faqs.html
claims "TrueDoc works differently from font embedding" which sounds
like they are trying to claim what they do is *different* from EOT etc.

They also claim: "When recording characters, the TrueDoc recorder does 
not access the original font directly. In addition, TrueDoc does not 
copy or use any hinting information from the original font. TrueDoc's 
internal, automatic hinting process handles all hinting to guarantee 
exceptional quality on all devices." - and seem to imply that this gets 
round the original font license.

Of course Microsoft, Monotype, & Adobe also have number of patents of 
their own related to font embedding .

- chris



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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Dave Crossland]

2008/7/23 Christopher Fynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> These are the same people that released the report trashing free fonts

They were shit-talking proprietary software redistributable at zero
price - "freeware" - and all the problems they identify would be
solvable if those fonts were not proprietary.

>> They say that EOT will be a W3C specification.
>
> Microsoft's Embedded OpenType (.EOT) Font Format Submission Request to W3C:
> 

Microsoft can submit whatever they want to the W3C, that doesn't mean
it WILL become a specification.

Bitstream hold plenty of software patents on all this stuff, and they
aren't involved in the W3C, so anyone who wants to implement anything
like EOT is going to be screwed by them.

-- 
Regards,
Dave
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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Christopher Fynn]

http://www.fontembedding.com/  = Ascender.

These are the same people that released the report trashing free fonts





Dave Crossland wrote:
> 2008/7/21 Gustavo Ferreira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> http://www.fontembedding.com/
>>
>> curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)
> 
> They say that EOT will be a W3C specification.

Microsoft's Embedded OpenType (.EOT) Font Format Submission Request to 
W3C: 

MS Embedded OpenType (EOT) File Format:

Monotype MicroType Express (MTX) Font Format:


- Chris

> This seems delusional to me.

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Re: [Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Dave Crossland]

2008/7/21 Gustavo Ferreira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> http://www.fontembedding.com/
>
> curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)

They say that EOT will be a W3C specification.

This seems delusional to me.
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[Openfontlibrary] FontEmbedding.com

[Gustavo Ferreira]

http://www.fontembedding.com/

curious to hear your thoughts about this... :-)

regards,
- gustavo.

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