Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On 2020-12-31 04:25, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: Am 30.12.20 um 21:14 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: Am 30.12.20 um 19:10 schrieb Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss: I have a problem with my mail list settings, so I write one single reply, adressing three different persons. I am a newbie to the OpenSolarish scene, so I dont know much about it, or who the people we should talk to, though. :) @Aurelien,Yes, I was quite certain I was not alone in seeing the disadvantages of having separate small teams instead of one single larger team. It is good that you people already had this discussion. Maybe it is time to revive your old discussion again? It was not diplomatic to say that OI was inferior, but now some additional water has passed under the bridge and you all have had some time to work and deliver your own product. I think that if people were more diplomatic it would benefit OpenSolarish, and the world as a whole. We dont want a cursing and yelling culture as in some other OSes no? I dont understand your statement of no vanilla illumos anymore. Is OmniOS not illumos, but OI is? In that case, that is sad, yes. But in the greater scheme of things, it would be better for OpenSolarish community even if we have to give up vanilla illumos. If we merge OI and OmniOS, it is not irrecoverable, it will be possible later to try to tweak our new distro to a more vanilla illumos distro. Or, if someone in the future, did the additional minor work to tweak the new merged distro to vanilla illumos - that would be much less work than creating OI today, I guess? I bet many more than I, would be very excited in one unified illumos distro where we merge OmniOS and OI. I understand there is lot of prestige involved, but if we dont do want OpenSolaris to diminish and die to Linux, we all maybe should put aside the prestige? :) @Andy,Regarding who will do all the work. Realistically, it will be you and the other OI devs who will do all the work. I bet several other people would love to help, but not all of us can do what you can do. I want to help though. Maybe help to coordinate, and help discuss with the OmniOS team? And write manuals? Of course, if we can merge OI and OmniOS there will be lot of work for you guys in the beginning. But in the long run your work will be less as there are more developers involved. And as you guys already have discussed this earlier, maybe it is time to rethink this old train of thought of yours, again? You know the process better now and have a shipped product, so you do stand on your own legs. A large team of talented developers is better than a small team? This would also cause some attention in the FOSS world, and the OpenSolarish community. More people will be exposed to your work, and benefit from it. There are already lot of work done by OmniOS, you and the OI devs could leverage their work? What is your thought of working with a new set of talented developers creating something new together that we all could benefit from? Is there too much prestige involved for this to be realistic? Most OI maintainers are "dormant" at the moment. I have been the only active member with commit rights for roughly three months now. We don't even have enough people to test important things, eg. I have asked to test and look at an update of bind without any reaction for almost two weeks now. Adding a desktop on top of OmniOSce is A LOT OF WORK. Maintaining a desktop is quite more complex than focussing on the server aspects of an OS alone. The amount of work that is already done for OI (many parts of it inherited from OpenSolaris) is tremendous. If "we" start this endeavour it will most probably mean that you won't see anything in months if not years. In my eyes it will kill OI and in the end will leave Tribblix as the only illumos based desktop OS. I haven't been involved in the earlier discussions but only read the messages then. I just started to be more active at that time and didn't feel experienced enough to take part at the discussion. Today I am not sure whether a unification would be a good idea. Not because I don't want to work with the OmniOSce guys but because we have different interests. Sure, we share some technologies, like illumos, the boot loader and IPS. But OmniOSce is targeted as a server OS because that's the only area where people are willing to pay for things. OmniOSce is a product of some companies while OI is an all-purpose OS with a desktop created by people in their spare time without any monetary interests (at least to my knowledge). OmniOSce paying customers won't pay more to get a desktop and I don't expect that they will get many new paying desktop users. So there wouldn't be much to win for OmniOSce. Andreas Just to add to my former answer: What OI is not lacking is management, good ideas, recommendations. But what we are lacking is - Infrastructure: we only have a single build VM provided by EveryCity, who started OI but abandoned it in favour of SmartOS. We also
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
I have to say the build and package environment is one of the best in open source but takes some time to learn. It is really worth it though. I find it the best laid out one for the casual user who wants his own packages. I would use more but my machines are old and slow. There were and are some good developers here that know there stuff. I just want alternatives. Not everybody has to go down the same path. Wish all of you a better year. On 2020-12-31 07:25, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: It took some time and efforts to become familiar with OI's build system, though. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Am 30.12.20 um 21:14 schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: Am 30.12.20 um 19:10 schrieb Kalle Anka via openindiana-discuss: I have a problem with my mail list settings, so I write one single reply, adressing three different persons. I am a newbie to the OpenSolarish scene, so I dont know much about it, or who the people we should talk to, though. :) @Aurelien,Yes, I was quite certain I was not alone in seeing the disadvantages of having separate small teams instead of one single larger team. It is good that you people already had this discussion. Maybe it is time to revive your old discussion again? It was not diplomatic to say that OI was inferior, but now some additional water has passed under the bridge and you all have had some time to work and deliver your own product. I think that if people were more diplomatic it would benefit OpenSolarish, and the world as a whole. We dont want a cursing and yelling culture as in some other OSes no? I dont understand your statement of no vanilla illumos anymore. Is OmniOS not illumos, but OI is? In that case, that is sad, yes. But in the greater scheme of things, it would be better for OpenSolarish community even if we have to give up vanilla illumos. If we merge OI and OmniOS, it is not irrecoverable, it will be possible later to try to tweak our new distro to a more vanilla illumos distro. Or, if someone in the future, did the additional minor work to tweak the new merged distro to vanilla illumos - that would be much less work than creating OI today, I guess? I bet many more than I, would be very excited in one unified illumos distro where we merge OmniOS and OI. I understand there is lot of prestige involved, but if we dont do want OpenSolaris to diminish and die to Linux, we all maybe should put aside the prestige? :) @Andy,Regarding who will do all the work. Realistically, it will be you and the other OI devs who will do all the work. I bet several other people would love to help, but not all of us can do what you can do. I want to help though. Maybe help to coordinate, and help discuss with the OmniOS team? And write manuals? Of course, if we can merge OI and OmniOS there will be lot of work for you guys in the beginning. But in the long run your work will be less as there are more developers involved. And as you guys already have discussed this earlier, maybe it is time to rethink this old train of thought of yours, again? You know the process better now and have a shipped product, so you do stand on your own legs. A large team of talented developers is better than a small team? This would also cause some attention in the FOSS world, and the OpenSolarish community. More people will be exposed to your work, and benefit from it. There are already lot of work done by OmniOS, you and the OI devs could leverage their work? What is your thought of working with a new set of talented developers creating something new together that we all could benefit from? Is there too much prestige involved for this to be realistic? Most OI maintainers are "dormant" at the moment. I have been the only active member with commit rights for roughly three months now. We don't even have enough people to test important things, eg. I have asked to test and look at an update of bind without any reaction for almost two weeks now. Adding a desktop on top of OmniOSce is A LOT OF WORK. Maintaining a desktop is quite more complex than focussing on the server aspects of an OS alone. The amount of work that is already done for OI (many parts of it inherited from OpenSolaris) is tremendous. If "we" start this endeavour it will most probably mean that you won't see anything in months if not years. In my eyes it will kill OI and in the end will leave Tribblix as the only illumos based desktop OS. I haven't been involved in the earlier discussions but only read the messages then. I just started to be more active at that time and didn't feel experienced enough to take part at the discussion. Today I am not sure whether a unification would be a good idea. Not because I don't want to work with the OmniOSce guys but because we have different interests. Sure, we share some technologies, like illumos, the boot loader and IPS. But OmniOSce is targeted as a server OS because that's the only area where people are willing to pay for things. OmniOSce is a product of some companies while OI is an all-purpose OS with a desktop created by people in their spare time without any monetary interests (at least to my knowledge). OmniOSce paying customers won't pay more to get a desktop and I don't expect that they will get many new paying desktop users. So there wouldn't be much to win for OmniOSce. Andreas Just to add to my former answer: What OI is not lacking is management, good ideas, recommendations. But what we are lacking is - Infrastructure: we only have a single build VM provided by EveryCity, who started OI but abandoned it in favour of SmartOS. We also only have a single package server provided by
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020, Aur?lien Larcher wrote: ; I think merging both makes sense to gain momentum and stopping reinventing ; the wheel given the number of developers (us pulling from OmniOS and ; Dominik packaging stuff that we already have). I wasn't originally subscribed to this list but I've caught up via the archives. This reply will be out of the thread order since it's to a message I was Ccd on. As others have said, the two distributions are quite different, and while there are a few areas where there is overlap, there aren't actually as many as a lot of people seem to think. Like a lot of the OmniOS developers, I work on OmniOS core because I need it for my business. The core is small and has stable and long-term branches, with structured releases that mostly do not require a reboot. I don't need a desktop or any of the additional software. My other work on illumos is mostly as a hobby and a way to learn, and I generally do that work against upstream illumos-gate so that all distributions benefit. Josh has already referred to the work I'm doing to upgrade ksh93 (and make it easier to maintain in the future), but things like adding support to gate for building with openssl 1.1, or improving support for 64-bit PCI come under the same umbrella. I see references to the OmniOS Extra repository from time to time and I think it's worth clarifying what this is. It's one of several bolt-on repositories for OmniOS that provides additional packages and it keeps itself to itself under /opt/ooce as far as possible. It does not have stable branches and doesn't have any of the guarantees that there are around OmniOS core. It was originally created to hold the extra packages needed to build OmniOS itself, and to run the infrastructure. Other packages have been added by the OmniOS community, and sometimes as a direct request from users with a support contract. In particular, it is not trying to be a massive package repository, or to support a desktop environment. As an example, the few X11 libraries and headers which were added to it are there solely to support building OpenJDK 11 for OmniOS core. Speaking of OpenJDK 11, that's one recent example of the collaboration that's already occurring. OmniOS picked up Peter's work on OpenJDK pretty much as it was and integrated it to core. Gcc is another example - OmniOS benefitted directly from the work that Aurelien did to update gcc in OpenIndiana and that work is in the central https://github.com/illumos/gcc/ so it's there for all distributions that want it. In the other direction, OpenIndiana has integrated the updated IPS tooling with support for python3 from the OmniOS repository, and the kvm and bhyve branded zones. I don't speak for the rest of the OmniOS developers, or for the users, but I don't personally think it makes sense to try and merge the two distributions. They are different and have different goals and there is not that much overlap at the core. Andy ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Merging OI + OmniOS? (And OpenZFS vs ZFS)
Guys, my apologies for yahoo mail eliminating the new lines and make a huge Wall of Text. I always paragraph well, but yahoo messes everything up. I will try to separate paragraphs with dots now. . @Peter Tribble,You have a point in that it is easier for a lone developer to do what he wants, in his own pace because no one will mess up his distro However, the existence of OpenSolarish is threatened, and if we want OpenSolarish to live and thrive, we maybe need to think differently? If we just continue to do what we always have done, the outcome will be the same. To change the outcome, we need to act differently. Just look at OpenZFS. If the illumos ZFS developers have acted differently, there would be no fork of OpenZFS. As an outsider, it is clear to me that we need to join forces, all of us in the OpenSolarish camp. Lest OpenSolarish will not survive. . Peter, how about this suggestion then? We always use the latest OmniOS LTS as a base? LTS distros are more stable, and exists for 3 years. Then a lone developer has 3 years time to do whatever he wants in his own pace. No one messes up the LTS distro during that time. Could this suggestion work for a lone developer? What is your opinion on always using LTS distro as the base, and adding a desktop environment ontop? ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Emacs-27.1 missing portable dumper file
Hi, Dieter Klünter writes: > Reading Emacs Manual gives the impression that building Emacs-27.1 a > emacs.pdmp dump file is created. On start Emacs requires this emacs.pdmp. > > Can somebody check this? I built 27.1 under Solaris 11.3 today (Sorry, my OI build setup isn't ready yet) and it created this file: $BASEDIR/libexec/emacs/27.1/i386-pc-solaris2.11/emacs.pdmp Emacs still starts after removing this file, but it takes much longer, and lots of elisp files are processed during startup. Cheers, Rainer -- Email: r...@bb-c.de Telefon: 02448/919126 Mobiltelefon: 0172/9593205 Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH Am Wiesenpfad 6 53340 Meckenheim Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
