Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-29 Thread Jerry Kemp 

Hello Bob,

Is this something that personally happened to you?

Jerry





On 01/28/17 12:45 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:



Oracle determines who is allowed to run Solaris based on who they allow to
purchase a support contract.  Once your hardware is no longer eligible for a
support contract then it may no longer be legal to install Solaris on it, even
if Solaris is being re-installed due to a disk failure.

Bob


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Nikola M 

On 01/29/17 12:53 AM, Adam Števko wrote:

Hello,


Of course it is related to OI and there is no other list to mention it on 
actually, that is closer to the topic.
I don't think asking people not to discuss and talk is positive community 
influence, asking people to shut up is an negative influence.

No, it is not. If Oracle decides to stop developing Solaris we can do nothing 
about.


Yes it is. And Oracle is not stopping of supporting and developing 
Solaris, that is just again repeating misleading news outlets inventions.



I am not asking people to stop discussing. I am asking then stop discussing 
about something, we:


However you call it, it is just rude and inappropriate and as said goes 
out of the scope and decency.

If you don't want to stop people discussing, then you just don't do it.


1) have no control over and is useless to debate


It's your opinion thank you for it but it is just that..
Someone could argue that even more useless is calling people and their 
discussion useless. That is by definition totally useless.



2) facts are misinterpreted as Alan pointed out


That IS the point and that is the point of discussion, to show that news 
on internet is full of sh. and who is going to tell people about it then 
those interested in it and sharing the code with it.



If that energy was spent working on the project itself, we would be accomplish 
more. There are around 30 pull requests on github, which are pending review / 
testing and no one has replied to my threads when I asked people for review.


It is great to support people spending energy on positive things, 
however, preaching silence , non interaction and robotized goal-seek 
behavior is not what vibrant and open community is.
As you are supposedly to learn from this discussion, you can't force 
people doing things, one can motivate and responding to every topic you 
are not interested in by stopping discussion by force is not good for 
you nor anyone.



The fact that OI uses IPS/Xorg from Oracle Solaris does not mean that those 
repositories will vanish overnight if Oracle stop producing updates


Where did you get it that Oracle would stop producing updates to it's 
open-source parts? It is just adding to the media bias and adding to 
assumptions.



(we still have copy of those). Our IPS is not the same as in Oracle Solaris and 
having up to date version on OI would be great. There are also a few problems 
with getting older IPS features (e.g. zone proxy) working on OI. Why do people 
tend to waste time with useless debates? There is work to be done..


Because talks (not debates) are needed to inform, exchange ideas, 
correct one another , learn new things from one another, organize, 
support, getting to know each other and all the things that make human 
communication usable in everyday life.
Life is not all work work work, but people tend to find better ways of 
doing things, by communicating.

And you should not bash people calling them wasting time.
If people talk talk talk and then get some ideas and do something new 
that is the way of inclusion of the new people. No one gets included 
before at least talking with someone.


It is important to talk about general Solaris and Opensolaris-descendent 
ecosystem, where, for example, SpecFilesExtra on sfe.opencsw.org and 
PkgBuild project is building software for both illumos and IPS distros, 
including Openindiana and at the same time, tend to have same 'recepies' 
usable on Solaris too.
So we still share up to the point ecosystem, people and systems with 
Solaris and one can say we are all Solaris folks since maintaining and 
managing haven't diverge too much over time.





Eh, if somebody is bashing OI somewhere, you should debate it there, so others 
can see it. Debating it on this mailing list is of no use (as not everybody is 
following it)


Yes, but is is also important to have facts straight in home place, 
because if it not told and sorted out that that "Solaris going away" 
mantra is total bullshit (not untill 2031/34 at least..) then how is it 
suppose to be said elsewhere.


Of course reaction need to be there (if reactions are not intentionally 
stopped or something) and people are supposed to have more freedom on 
their own distro mailing list in discussing then, without anyone gagging 
them even here.
So talking is of very big use, people get things straight, get more 
informed with right facts.


Actually talking to people to stop talking is an form of trolling.




illumos and Openindiana does not compete with Solaris, they each have they use 
cases and support models.

It doesn’t as illumos has much smaller user base as Solaris does and illumos 
never had a goal to compete with Solaris. illumos’ ancestry is just an 
advantage for us, but it doesn’t mean that Solaris affects us anyhow,


Of course it is affecting us as users of what happens with Solaris. 
People using illumos are not only coming form Linux landscape, but same 
people using Solaris

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Adam Števko 
Hello,

> Of course it is related to OI and there is no other list to mention it on 
> actually, that is closer to the topic.
> I don't think asking people not to discuss and talk is positive community 
> influence, asking people to shut up is an negative influence.

No, it is not. If Oracle decides to stop developing Solaris we can do nothing 
about. I am not asking people to stop discussing. I am asking then stop 
discussing about something, we:

1) have no control over and is useless to debate
2) facts are misinterpreted as Alan pointed out

If that energy was spent working on the project itself, we would be accomplish 
more. There are around 30 pull requests on github, which are pending review / 
testing and no one has replied to my threads when I asked people for review.

>>  I know that many people still care about Solaris and what happens to it, 
>> but please get over it.
> 
> Oi iteslf uses IPS for packages, uses Xorg and many other things are shared 
> with Oracle Solaris open source released components.
> It is that Solaris supported nature and shared code up to illumos birth, 
> makes it very interesting topic for OI/illumos, sharing in most cases users 
> pool, where some people might run illumos/Openindiana on some machines or 
> Solaris on others.

The fact that OI uses IPS/Xorg from Oracle Solaris does not mean that those 
repositories will vanish overnight if Oracle stop producing updates (we still 
have copy of those). Our IPS is not the same as in Oracle Solaris and having up 
to date version on OI would be great. There are also a few problems with 
getting older IPS features (e.g. zone proxy) working on OI. Why do people tend 
to waste time with useless debates? There is work to be done..


>> It's been 7 years since illumos and Solaris separated and illumos chose 
>> different path. illumos/OpenIndiana has it's own future and instead of 
>> debating Oracle business decisions, go search illumos bug tracker and report 
>> / fix bugs, write blog posts about illumos/OpenIndiana etc.
> 
> On the other hand, if there is no reaction to media bashing on Solaris, next 
> time, random writer start to bash OI or illumos there would be no one to stop 
> the flood of Linux drones.

Eh, if somebody is bashing OI somewhere, you should debate it there, so others 
can see it. Debating it on this mailing list is of no use (as not everybody is 
following it)

> illumos and Openindiana does not compete with Solaris, they each have they 
> use cases and support models.

It doesn’t as illumos has much smaller user base as Solaris does and illumos 
never had a goal to compete with Solaris. illumos’ ancestry is just an 
advantage for us, but it doesn’t mean that Solaris affects us anyhow, e.g. 
SmartOS?Nexenta are doing fine and are not related to Solaris at all.

> Linux is illumos competition and Linux drones are bashing everything 
> non-Linux on internet news comments, so there is even more then need to react 
> to media bias.

You should react where the bashing was published and not here. What’s the point 
of debating the bashing here if people who bash OI/illumos will not read it?

> I would actually rather select Oracle Solaris then some corporate Linux 
> distro if I am forced on having dead-serious mission-critical support 
> contracts.
> Recognizing benefits of Linux, but even after more then 8 years since 
> Opensolaris 2009.06, usability for serious use of any Linux distribution is 
> far below Openindiana/illumos.

That’s just your pick. However, 99% of the market thinks differently..


> Feel free not to respond if find topic uninteresting.
> For younger audience directing not to talk on public mailing lists is out of 
> scope of administration and forums are not the mailing lists. Messages/posts 
> can not go back and be deleted and one can not "lock thread" or topic, so 
> that is what one needs to get over, getting away people's freedom of 
> expression and freedom of talk.

I am not saying that people shouldn’t discuss things on this mailing. I am just 
asking people to follow a simple rule and to discuss things related to 
OpenIndiana. After all, this mailing list is called OpenIndiana-discuss and 
neither solaris-discuss or oracle-discuss. If somebody wishes to debate one 
unrelated corporation’s business decision, please do so, but not on this 
mailing list.

Thanks for understanding!

Cheers,
Adam




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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Nikola M 

On 01/28/17 03:19 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss wrote:

Topic name (end) is more of an mantra then something. Who's end, what to
end? Basically nothing but reference to "media" bias that was
published
on news sites in previous days. (and we all know how sites and
publicists are click-loving)

  
Well I know that where is smoke, there is fire.


Yeah or someone is making the smoke, to attract main course showing up 
at dinner... :)



"end of the world" references are overwhelmingly culturally present to
put people into fear state.

OK but you have to admit that many things ended in the history of
computing.


And it is surely not Solaris, and not at all.



In a sense it was the official forum of solaris x86 users. In good old times,
I could received even 50 messages in a day. Now the list practically dead...


I was hoping to learn what mailing list you think on.
Some lists are intentionally squashed by their owners after receiving 
better offers. Etc.



I exactly do not expect Solaris going anyway but being solid solution
for the long-term support.


This will happen only if people are paying Oracle...


And they surely are paying. Big bucks for tens of years.


Anyway, OpenOffice was head over to the Apache
foundation and that is a good thing, yet 'rolling released' vs '
named versions' differences are also there.


They could not do otherwise and that is why they gave it away.
In fact, who would buy OpenOffice when LibreOffice could do the
same things and it was free! There was no profit for them. And


Sun used to sell StarOffice with support, even while having OpenOffice 
available for non-paying customers.
It would be interesting to know if there is any revenue from LibreOffice 
support at all and who is getting payed for support, if any.



although they have "donated" to the "community", they cannot
modify the code so to replace the compiler for Solaris-like
systems to GCC and so it is impossible to compile it under any
Solaris-like system. Obviously, it does not compile under Solaris
either. Big donation!


I didn't know that, are you saying that Apache OpenOffice can be 
compiled only using SolarisStudio compiler, running on Linux, or something?




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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Nikola M 

On 01/28/17 10:45 PM, Adam Števko wrote:

Hello,

guys, can we stop debating something that is not related to OI on this mailing 
lust?


Of course it is related to OI and there is no other list to mention it 
on actually, that is closer to the topic.
I don't think asking people not to discuss and talk is positive 
community influence, asking people to shut up is an negative influence.



  I know that many people still care about Solaris and what happens to it, but 
please get over it.


Oi iteslf uses IPS for packages, uses Xorg and many other things are 
shared with Oracle Solaris open source released components.
It is that Solaris supported nature and shared code up to illumos birth, 
makes it very interesting topic for OI/illumos, sharing in most cases 
users pool, where some people might run illumos/Openindiana on some 
machines or Solaris on others.



It's been 7 years since illumos and Solaris separated and illumos chose 
different path. illumos/OpenIndiana has it's own future and instead of debating 
Oracle business decisions, go search illumos bug tracker and report / fix bugs, 
write blog posts about illumos/OpenIndiana etc.


On the other hand, if there is no reaction to media bashing on Solaris, 
next time, random writer start to bash OI or illumos there would be no 
one to stop the flood of Linux drones.


illumos and Openindiana does not compete with Solaris, they each have 
they use cases and support models.


Linux is illumos competition and Linux drones are bashing everything 
non-Linux on internet news comments, so there is even more then need to 
react to media bias.


I would actually rather select Oracle Solaris then some corporate Linux 
distro if I am forced on having dead-serious mission-critical support 
contracts.
Recognizing benefits of Linux, but even after more then 8 years since 
Opensolaris 2009.06, usability for serious use of any Linux distribution 
is far below Openindiana/illumos.


Feel free not to respond if find topic uninteresting.
For younger audience directing not to talk on public mailing lists is 
out of scope of administration and forums are not the mailing lists. 
Messages/posts can not go back and be deleted and one can not "lock 
thread" or topic, so that is what one needs to get over, getting away 
people's freedom of expression and freedom of talk.



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Adam Števko 
Hello,

guys, can we stop debating something that is not related to OI on this mailing 
lust? I know that many people still care about Solaris and what happens to it, 
but please get over it. It's been 7 years since illumos and Solaris separated 
and illumos chose different path. illumos/OpenIndiana has it's own future and 
instead of debating Oracle business decisions, go search illumos bug tracker 
and report / fix bugs, write blog posts about illumos/OpenIndiana etc.

If you wish to debate Oracle Solaris, use different mailing list for that. This 
mailing list is used for debating OI-related topics.

Thanks for uderstanding!

Cheers,
Adam

> On 28 Jan 2017, at 20:06, John D Groenveld  wrote:
> 
> In message , 
> Bob 
> Friesenhahn writes:
>> Oracle determines who is allowed to run Solaris based on who they 
>> allow to purchase a support contract.  Once your hardware is no longer 
>> eligible for a support contract then it may no longer be legal to 
>> install Solaris on it, even if Solaris is being re-installed due to a 
>> disk failure.
> 
> Agreed, but so what?
> 
> If you're an Oracle customer in 2017 you know Larry Ellison prefers
> you over a barrel and you're comfortable with being in that low-volume,
> high-margin position.
> OI and illumos has long ago absorbed those Solaris users who aren't
> comfortable with that relationship.
> I've seen very few OI or illumos RFEs in this thread to enable the
> few if any remaining members of the Solaris ecosystem to escape
> Ellison's grasp if only...
> 
> John
> groenv...@acm.org
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread John D Groenveld 
In message , Bob 
Friesenhahn writes:
>Oracle determines who is allowed to run Solaris based on who they 
>allow to purchase a support contract.  Once your hardware is no longer 
>eligible for a support contract then it may no longer be legal to 
>install Solaris on it, even if Solaris is being re-installed due to a 
>disk failure.

Agreed, but so what?

If you're an Oracle customer in 2017 you know Larry Ellison prefers
you over a barrel and you're comfortable with being in that low-volume,
high-margin position.
OI and illumos has long ago absorbed those Solaris users who aren't
comfortable with that relationship.
I've seen very few OI or illumos RFEs in this thread to enable the
few if any remaining members of the Solaris ecosystem to escape
Ellison's grasp if only...

John
groenv...@acm.org

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Aurélien Larcher 
Oracle determines who is allowed to run Solaris based on who they allow to
> purchase a support contract.  Once your hardware is no longer eligible for
> a support contract then it may no longer be legal to install Solaris on it,
> even if Solaris is being re-installed due to a disk failure.
>

Damn ... for a second, when I saw one unread message in my inbox I thought
that finally someone had replied to one of my emails about Xorg, Qt5, or
other OI-related stuff etc.. ;)


> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
>
>
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>



-- 
---
Praise the Caffeine embeddings
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Bob Friesenhahn 

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017, Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss wrote:



I exactly do not expect Solaris going anyway but being solid solution
for the long-term support.


This will happen only if people are paying Oracle...


Oracle determines who is allowed to run Solaris based on who they 
allow to purchase a support contract.  Once your hardware is no longer 
eligible for a support contract then it may no longer be legal to 
install Solaris on it, even if Solaris is being re-installed due to a 
disk failure.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-28 Thread Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss 
>
> Topic name (end) is more of an mantra then something. Who's end, what to
> end? Basically nothing but reference to "media" bias that was
> published
> on news sites in previous days. (and we all know how sites and
> publicists are click-loving)
> 
 
Well I know that where is smoke, there is fire. 


> "end of the world" references are overwhelmingly culturally present to
> put people into fear state.

OK but you have to admit that many things ended in the history of
computing.  


> At least, support up till 2034 does not correlate right with any of
> that. (Maybe: "2031 is near" :) )


Provided this and that will happen but they will not happen...

> Some interpretations tend to create another realities based on assumptions.
> Mailing lists tend to be moved, stopped from functioning for various
> reasons. What is that Solaris x86 list?

In a sense it was the official forum of solaris x86 users. In good old times,
I could received even 50 messages in a day. Now the list practically dead...

> I exactly do not expect Solaris going anyway but being solid solution
> for the long-term support.


This will happen only if people are paying Oracle...


> Anyway, OpenOffice was head over to the Apache
> foundation and that is a good thing, yet 'rolling released' vs '
> named versions' differences are also there.


They could not do otherwise and that is why they gave it away.
In fact, who would buy OpenOffice when LibreOffice could do the
same things and it was free! There was no profit for them. And 

although they have "donated" to the "community", they cannot
modify the code so to replace the compiler for Solaris-like
systems to GCC and so it is impossible to compile it under any
Solaris-like system. Obviously, it does not compile under Solaris
either. Big donation!

But I am stopping here. I will not reply to any message on this topic
any more.

A.S.

--
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece

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[OpenIndiana-discuss] 2031 is near

2017-01-27 Thread Nikola M 

On 01/24/17 07:52 PM, Apostolos Syropoulos via openindiana-discuss wrote:

Apart form Christian references.. ;) (that actually never came into life
or were constantly coming again , for one's frame of reference),

What do you mean by Christian references? Also, are there Muslim references?
"end of the world" references are overwhelmingly culturally present to 
put people into fear state.
At least, support up till 2034 does not correlate right with any of 
that. (Maybe: "2031 is near" :) )


Topic name (end) is more of an mantra then something. Who's end, what to 
end? Basically nothing but reference to "media" bias that was published 
on news sites in previous days. (and we all know how sites and 
publicists are click-loving)



I only see renaming it to 11.x and stating in Alan's posted PDF link,
S11.x support is there for long after 2021, but 2031 and 2034.

It is a matter of interpretation. Some years ago I was getting many messages
in the solaris-x86 mailing list and now I get one every six months... This


Some interpretations tend to create another realities based on assumptions.
Mailing lists tend to be moved, stopped from functioning for various 
reasons. What is that Solaris x86 list?



is an indication that people are not using Solaris anymore.


Is indication of nothing in particularly important, for example, do you 
know how, say,
distrowatch site measures "popularity" of distributions (that many 
interpret as usage)?
- By measuring how many site visitors click on distribution 
descriptions.. not very precise to say at least.


It could be that people like more open products then proprietary ones.. 
that could be true.



Going further
I would say that Oracle is not making money from Solaris, or at least the
money they were expecting. If Oracle is not making money from Solaris, they


All free software projects actually exist supported by people and 
companies that are payed or make money/make use of software for 
production use.
Both companies, individuals and communities could be doing the right 
things in managing their ways of contribution.
And it goes both ways, it is never good to bash products and it's use 
based on assumptions, even if usage scenarios change over time.


As no one is not Oracle we only know what interpretations are released 
by various sites, based on rumors, pictures , projects renaming and 
assumptions.

Sounds more to me as chasing of UFOs then analysis. :)


will shut it down or they will denote it, just like they did with OpenOffice.


I exactly do not expect Solaris going anyway but being solid solution 
for the long-term support.
If anyone missed it, Oracle have faster SPARC products then x86 and 
software in silicon and OS is needed for that.
They are missing the point in some other areas but both technological 
base and long term support are not questioned.


For OpenOffice, they did no such thing, basically, schism and bashing 
from 'LibreOffice' people never stopped and that kind of irrational fear 
of companies is unsound. Anyway, OpenOffice was head over to the Apache 
foundation and that is a good thing, yet 'rolling released' vs ' named 
versions' differences are also there.



Of course, Apache Open Office is a total failure but this is another story.


Well, it seems that many in various communities fear of one-company 
project control , but at the same time, production use actually 
_requires_ a company for a support contracts and maintaining software 
and systems.


Communities have to decide in their heads if they want to have an option 
of payed support or not and I can only guess the real battle between 
company vs community control over projects brand names and established 
products development paths is for - paying customers.


Companies showed that they are capable of having quality support for 
paying customers , but being more rigid in the process, whereas 
communities are more open to changes but constantly have problems with 
money flows.


It is the fact that after taking over Sun , Oracle did not 
recognize/utilize that Opensolaris projects and people and that it is 
supposed to bring boost to support and systems sales and how open vs 
closed is important for the public relations.

But on the other hand bunch of people cast out Oracle 'just because'.
It all boils down to what type of customer company wants to attract and 
Oracle attracts deep-pocket long-support customers.


illumos/Openindiana distributions attraction is between previous Linux 
users who found something better on this side.



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