Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Joshua M. Clulow 
On Tue, 14 Jul 2020 at 23:38, Judah Richardson
 wrote:
> If I had to choose between the 2, I'd run FreeBSD because at least if I
> have a problem there's a proper handbook and I'll get probably 5 replies in
> r/FreeBSD or r/BSD instead 1 or 0 in r/Illumos and r/unix.

I suspect you'll get better -- or at least a greater number of --
responses in venues where the community tends to congregate.  I'm
unlikely to ever visit Reddit with any regularity, for instance, but I
am on our mailing lists and in our IRC channels a lot.


Cheers.

-- 
Joshua M. Clulow
http://blog.sysmgr.org

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Judah Richardson 
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 8:33 AM Bob Friesenhahn <
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Jul 2020, Judah Richardson wrote:
> > FreeBSD advantages:
> >
> >   1. Much better 3rd party package support (including recent Firefox
> >   releases
> >   2. Much larger userbase
> >   3. Much better documentation of the OS itself (documentation of Illumos
> >   itself is relatively lacking; Solaris docs remain the best resource)
>
> It is true that Solaris OS documentation is still quite applicable to
> Illumos

"Quite applicable" != complete coverage. FreeBSD's handbook & wiki combined
provide the latter for FreeBSD. Now, to be fair, FreeBSD has existed for
longer and has had more time and manpower to get that done. But the gap
does currently exist.

The documentation problem I've found with Illumos is Illumos and Solaris
functionality, while similar, is not always the same. Moreover, it is often
not very obvious when reading Solaris documentation what might apply
to/work with Illumos and what won't, and there's often no easily determined
corresponding Illumos documentation to fill that gap, either.

It's not enough to just have something written down somewhere; the scope
and applicability of that something, as well as its relation to the larger
body of Solaris documentation, must be clearly defined. Otherwise you risk
confusing and frustrating users.


> so it is not correct to say that FreeBSD provides better
> documentation of the OS itself, although the FreeBSD Handbook is quite
> nice and a good model to follow.
>
> If one is still willing to purchase printed books, there are Solaris
> OS books which are exceedingly good and useful which describe the
> operating system architecture and system programming.  I own every
> edition of the excellent BSD/FreeBSD books by McKusick (and others)
> and parts of the latest edition are even applicable to Illumos since
> they discuss ZFS implementation, which was derived from
> OpenSolaris/Illumos.
>
> The Illumos manual pages are exceedingly good, and the FreeBSD manual
> pages are also tip-top as compared with Linux manual pages which are
> often/usually incomplete or not accurate for the OS they are delivered
> with

Yes, I'm aware of that problem on Linux, and it's a very serious one. I
just haven't mentioned it in this thread because OP has indicated he's
migrating from Linux anyway and specifically asked for a FreeBSD vs.
Illumos comparison. The "vs." there implies he's intending to choose one
over the other; clearly it does not imply the projects are adversarial or
should be seen as such, and I hope my comments don't seem to imply that.

In a perfect world, OP would move forward with both, (attempt to) integrate
both into his workflow, and then find out pitfalls and advantages specific
to his use case that way :)

.  If one knows how to use manual pages, then it is rare to need
> to turn to "Google" to learn how to do something under Illumos or
> FreeBSD,

I have not found this to be the case. While that may be something
subjective and specific to myself, I do believe it's an objective fact that
man page examples aren't always exhaustive, and so Googling is often
necessary if you're trying to do something man page examples don't
explicitly cover.

but this is the common way to solve problems for Linux.  It
> does not take long to learn that Illumos and FreeBSD are good examples
> of consistently "coherent" systems but Linux distributions are more a
> form of babble and chaos.
>
> It is said that FreeBSD requires less memory to run than Illumos,
> which is partially true, but ZFS is better integrated into Illumos
> than it is into FreeBSD and the quality of the integration most
> significantly applies to memory allocation so on a larger system
> Illumos becomes more memory efficient.  In Illumos, ZFS is well
> integrated with the kernel memory allocation but in FreeBSD, ZFS may
> require setting tuning parameters because kernel memory and ZFS memory
> do not naturally "ebb and flow" (naturally sharing resources) as they
> do in Illumos.  FreeBSD's ZFS is about be replaced with one which is
> re-based on the OpenZFS which is itself re-based on ZOL (ZFS on Linux)
> so it is likely there will be new pains in the short term.
>
> It should be said that Illumos and FreeBSD are not at all hostile to
> each other and in fact there is a lot of code sharing and
> co-contribution going on.
>
True.

>
> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
> Public Key, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/public-key.txt
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Judah Richardson 
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 3:21 AM Andreas Wacknitz  wrote:

> Am 15.07.20 um 08:38 schrieb Judah Richardson:
>
> My disclaimer: I run several OS's, have been a Linux fan during its
> infancy days until I realized that there are other OS's that suit me
> better.
> I am running OI on servers and desktop. I'd say OI is my 2nd desktop,
> MacOS being my 1st and Windows 3rd.
>
> I you want to run OI (or any other illumos based OS) you definitely have
> to select your hardware, especially if you want to run a desktop.
> My recommendation: use a desktop computer (no notebook) with NVIDIA
> graphics card. Install from a text install image and after reboot run
> first an update (pkg update -v) and after this (and another reboot) pkg
> install mate_install. This will bring you X11 and Mate Desktop.
> While using it you will find out how to find and install missing packages.
>
> The hardware support for desktop computers (especially for notebooks)
> had been limited on illumos's origin - OpenSolaris - and haven't gotten
> better since the fork because commercial illumos companies are focused
> on servers and enhancements for the desktop are only done coincidentely
> by them.
>
> > I run both FreeBSD and OpenIndiana on their own bare metal devices, so
> what
> > I'm about to say is based on my own experience. I hope it doesn't upset
> > anyone.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:21 PM Lonnie Cumberland 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Greetings All,
> >>
> >> Hope that everyone one is well today.
> >>
> >> Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
> >> question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana
> (Illumos
> >> based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD,
> > OpenIndiana advantages:
> >
> > 1. RBAC
> > 2. Good documentation *for functionality inherited from Solaris* via
> > Solaris' docs
> > 3. Stability
> > 4. Zones
> > 5. Unix (FreeBSD is Unix-like)
> > 6. DE included in installer
> > 7. TimeSlider
> > 8. GParted (if you can get it to work)
> > 9. More repos available than just the OS' repo
> 10. Crossbow (network virtualization)
> 11. mdb / kmdb (modular debugger is a special low level debugger - can
> you single step into your running OS?)
> 12. BHyve and KVM (BHyve from FreeBSD and KVM from Linux)
> 13. Boot environments out of the box (addon on FreeBSD) - Update your
> system on a different ZFS file system,
>then boot into it and if something bad happened revert to an
> older boot environment!

   I don't want to live without this anymore!
> 14. CIFS/SMB implementation - inherited from Solaris and heavily
> enhanced during the last months (by Nexenta)
>As long as you don't want to run your own AD on your machine you
> don't need Samba for serving or using SMB!
>It's well integrated with the rest of the OS.
> 15. FMA (Fault Management Architecture) - well integrated fault
> management that interacts with SMF
>
> the next two are controverse:
> 15. SMF - the Service Management Framework - I'd say an init replacement
> almost done right
> 16. IPS (Image Packaging System) - a package management system that is
> special; very powerful but very slow (python) and for OI a resource hog.
>That being said, somebody is working on an alternative
> implementation that should increase its speed dramatically
>(alpha test version hopefully by the end of the year).
>
> >
> > or perhaps the other way around.
> > FreeBSD advantages:
> >
> > 1. Much better 3rd party package support (including recent Firefox
> > releases
> > 2. Much larger userbase
> > 3. Much better documentation of the OS itself (documentation of
> Illumos
> > itself is relatively lacking; Solaris docs remain the best resource)
> > 4. Actual proper UEFI support
> > 5. Much better hardware support
> > 6. Lower RAM usage
> > 7. Actual modern DE (I don't consider OI's MATE to be anywhere near
> > current gen) available and easily installed via FuryBSD 3rd party
> installer
> > (which is basically a stock FreeBSD installation with KDE included)
> > 8. Single, well-documented control planes/locations for many critical
> > features
> > 9. Much easier email notification setup
> > 10. Jails
> > 11. Can do UFS installation if ZFS isn't your thing. Wouldn't
> recommend
> > it, but it's possible
> > 12. Config is a lot more straightforward and consistent
> > 13. Behavior is sufficiently consistent and well-understood that
> > seemingly complicated issues can be more easily remotely troubleshot
> than
> > on other OSes
> >
> > If I had to choose between the 2, I'd run FreeBSD because at least if I
> > have a problem there's a proper handbook and I'll get probably 5 replies
> in
> > r/FreeBSD or r/BSD instead 1 or 0 in r/Illumos and r/unix.
> >
> >> I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem
> to
> >> be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Judah Richardson 
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 2:10 AM Guenther Alka  wrote:

>
> Both are Unix Options and both have unique use cases.
> Since around a year Open-ZFS in Illumos includes newest ZFS features
> like encryption and special vdevs while they are at first beta in
> Free-BSD but soon Free-BSD should include them as well.
>
OpenZFS on FreeBSD will soon be upstream of OpenZFS on Illumos, if it isn't
already. See slide 13 of this presentation

from the OpenZFS DevSummit keynote.

However, IIRC FreeBSD RELEASE hasn't switched to that implementation just
yet and it needs to be installed as an optional package.

>
> For me the main advantage of Illumos are the Solaris inherited features.
> This is mainly the "this is a whole storage operating system without 3rd
> party services, evetything included from Sun made by Sun". Even a very
> minimalistic Illumos distribution comes with the kernel based SMB server
> that I always prefer over SAMBA due its often better performance and
> better Windows ntfs alike features due nfs4 ACL support (ntfs alike)
> with Windows sid as extended ZFS features (Windows AD ACL remain intact
> if you move a pool), local SMB groups that are Windows compatible (Unix
> groups are not), always working ZFS snaps as Windows previous versions
> and mainly its simlicity. Turn it on and it just works. Add NFS from the
> inventor of NFS and FC/iSCSI support with the enterprise class Comstar
> stack or virtual networking.
>
Yeah I forgot to list Windows AD support as a very serious Illumos
advantage.

>
> Sun build the OpenSolaris OS more or less around ZFS so ZFS integration
> is simply the best. Illumos inherited this. While OmniOS/Illumos is the
> production ready storage server option with stable, long term stable and
> a commercial support option, OpenIndiana/Illumos is the successor of the
> OpenSolaris idea of an OS with additional GUI desktop or management
> options and a lot of services and more or less pure ongoing Illumos.
>
> gea
> @napp-it.org
>
>
> Am 15.07.2020 um 03:20 schrieb Lonnie Cumberland:
> > Greetings All,
> >
> > Hope that everyone one is well today.
> >
> > Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
> > question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
> > based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD, or perhaps the other way around.
> >
> > I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
> > be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features
> with
> > exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
> > although this could change as time goes on.
> >
> > Perhaps the only real advantage that I might be able to see is that
> FreeBSD
> > has more hardware support, but that may not be the defining factor for
> me.
> >
> > I am looking for that little gem in the rough, as it were, and do not
> > always believe that mainstream is the only stream that can yield a bright
> > future.
> >
> > Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
> > Thanks in advance
> > Lonnie
> > ___
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> > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Bob Friesenhahn 

On Wed, 15 Jul 2020, Judah Richardson wrote:

FreeBSD advantages:

  1. Much better 3rd party package support (including recent Firefox
  releases
  2. Much larger userbase
  3. Much better documentation of the OS itself (documentation of Illumos
  itself is relatively lacking; Solaris docs remain the best resource)


It is true that Solaris OS documentation is still quite applicable to 
Illumos so it is not correct to say that FreeBSD provides better 
documentation of the OS itself, although the FreeBSD Handbook is quite 
nice and a good model to follow.


If one is still willing to purchase printed books, there are Solaris 
OS books which are exceedingly good and useful which describe the 
operating system architecture and system programming.  I own every 
edition of the excellent BSD/FreeBSD books by McKusick (and others) 
and parts of the latest edition are even applicable to Illumos since 
they discuss ZFS implementation, which was derived from 
OpenSolaris/Illumos.


The Illumos manual pages are exceedingly good, and the FreeBSD manual 
pages are also tip-top as compared with Linux manual pages which are 
often/usually incomplete or not accurate for the OS they are delivered 
with.  If one knows how to use manual pages, then it is rare to need 
to turn to "Google" to learn how to do something under Illumos or 
FreeBSD, but this is the common way to solve problems for Linux.  It 
does not take long to learn that Illumos and FreeBSD are good examples 
of consistently "coherent" systems but Linux distributions are more a 
form of babble and chaos.


It is said that FreeBSD requires less memory to run than Illumos, 
which is partially true, but ZFS is better integrated into Illumos 
than it is into FreeBSD and the quality of the integration most 
significantly applies to memory allocation so on a larger system 
Illumos becomes more memory efficient.  In Illumos, ZFS is well 
integrated with the kernel memory allocation but in FreeBSD, ZFS may 
require setting tuning parameters because kernel memory and ZFS memory 
do not naturally "ebb and flow" (naturally sharing resources) as they 
do in Illumos.  FreeBSD's ZFS is about be replaced with one which is 
re-based on the OpenZFS which is itself re-based on ZOL (ZFS on Linux) 
so it is likely there will be new pains in the short term.


It should be said that Illumos and FreeBSD are not at all hostile to 
each other and in fact there is a lot of code sharing and 
co-contribution going on.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
Public Key, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/public-key.txt

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread andy thomas 

On Wed, 15 Jul 2020, Judah Richardson wrote:




I run both of the above, in addition to 3 release channels of Windows, 3
Linux distros, and Android, because I love OSes and am fascinated by the
different approaches various projects take to solve the same problems.
You'll learn a lot regardless of which one you choose.


Absolutely! This is my experience too - I originally started with Linux in 
the early 90's and then added Solaris, Ultrix, Digital/Tru64 UNIX, 
OpenSolaris. OI/Illumos, FreeSBD and OpenBSD in roughly that order. As a 
sys admin working for a number of organisations where I need lots of 
xterms open on a multi-screen set-up, I use FreeBSD + ZFS + fvwm2 window 
manager nearly all the time as a desktop O/S and it works fine for me, 
occasionally switching to OpenSUSE (or Unbuntu) + mate for 'officey' stuff 
like Teams and Zoom meetings, etc.


I still look after some Sun SPARC kit running Solaris 9 & 10 plus a few OI 
Intel/AMD-powered servers running ZFS where the clients tell me they feel 
"there is something solid & dependable about Solaris" and its descendants 
compared with Linux or FreeBSD. At the same time, by default I tend to use 
FreeBSD + ZFS for new storage, web & email servers and Ubuntu Linux server 
edition for compute/HPC systems as there's so much more scientific & 
specialist software available for that platform. (And OpenBSD is great for 
network applications - routers, firewalls, VPN boxes, etc).


The important thing really is not to get stuck in a O/S rut, especially in 
today's employment/economic environment. I've seen too many people train 
up exclusively on Red Hat only to find they're unemployable in other Linux 
environments, never mind in OI or FreeBSD-related roles.


cheers, Andy


Andy Thomas,
Time Domain Systems

Tel: +44 (0)7866 556626

http://www.time-domain.co.uk

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread James 

On 15/07/2020 07:38, Judah Richardson wrote:


I recently went through a
fresh OI install and was more than a bit disappointed that in AD 2020 I
still can't achieve UEFI boot.


OmniOS since r151032 (2019-11-04) supports UEFI boot.

https://github.com/omniosorg/omnios-build/blob/r151032/doc/ReleaseNotes.md

"OmniOS now supports UEFI boot. Any existing system which has space for 
an EFI system partition (ESP) on the root pool disks will automatically 
become UEFI-boot enabled following upgrade."




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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread rmd 
Hi folks,

just my two cents…
Since I came from the solaris world I do feel more comfortable with OpenIndiana
then FreeBSD, but FreeBSD evolved great as it supports not only ZFS but also
bootenvironments which are quite comfortable for upgrades and changes. 
On desktopsystems I use OpenIndiana because of OS stability and network 
flexibility and performance, firefox versions is a show stopper. 
On backend systems it dpends a bit, OpenIndiana is great because of ZFS, network
and zones. Multicoresupport seems to run better on OpenIndiana than on FreeBSD
FreeBSD is fast and seems to be more memory efficient, has a newer firefox and
supports ZFS and BEs, but jails are not that comfortable as zones. So FreeBSD 
as fileserver only in small office environments etc.

In the desktop area, the OpenIndiana standarddesktop slows down performance
and usability, so I simply deconfigure that use a diffrent non gnomish 
windowmanager

On notebooks and sysems networked via wlan I do prefer FreeBSD because wlan
configuration on OpenIndiana using WPA-PSK2 doesn’t work, at least for me.
 
Rolf

> On Jul 15, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Jonathan Adams
>  wrote:
> 
> In my production systems, I used a combination of lots of OSs.
> 
> I used OI for it's zones and networking. I used Linux for virtual box, web
> services and open VPN. I used freeNAS for file serving.
> 
> These roles and usages changed over time, as I also used to use OI as my
> web gateways, and for my static VPN, but with the layoffs and reduction in
> sites and people, I had to simplify.
> 
> Don't underestimate how good the networking in OI is, it's a killer feature.
> 
> Jon
> 
> On Wed, 15 Jul 2020, 08:10 Guenther Alka,  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Both are Unix Options and both have unique use cases.
>> Since around a year Open-ZFS in Illumos includes newest ZFS features
>> like encryption and special vdevs while they are at first beta in
>> Free-BSD but soon Free-BSD should include them as well.
>> 
>> For me the main advantage of Illumos are the Solaris inherited features.
>> This is mainly the "this is a whole storage operating system without 3rd
>> party services, evetything included from Sun made by Sun". Even a very
>> minimalistic Illumos distribution comes with the kernel based SMB server
>> that I always prefer over SAMBA due its often better performance and
>> better Windows ntfs alike features due nfs4 ACL support (ntfs alike)
>> with Windows sid as extended ZFS features (Windows AD ACL remain intact
>> if you move a pool), local SMB groups that are Windows compatible (Unix
>> groups are not), always working ZFS snaps as Windows previous versions
>> and mainly its simlicity. Turn it on and it just works. Add NFS from the
>> inventor of NFS and FC/iSCSI support with the enterprise class Comstar
>> stack or virtual networking.
>> 
>> Sun build the OpenSolaris OS more or less around ZFS so ZFS integration
>> is simply the best. Illumos inherited this. While OmniOS/Illumos is the
>> production ready storage server option with stable, long term stable and
>> a commercial support option, OpenIndiana/Illumos is the successor of the
>> OpenSolaris idea of an OS with additional GUI desktop or management
>> options and a lot of services and more or less pure ongoing Illumos.
>> 
>> gea
>> @napp-it.org
>> 
>> 
>> Am 15.07.2020 um 03:20 schrieb Lonnie Cumberland:
>>> Greetings All,
>>> 
>>> Hope that everyone one is well today.
>>> 
>>> Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
>>> question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
>>> based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD, or perhaps the other way around.
>>> 
>>> I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
>>> be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features
>> with
>>> exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
>>> although this could change as time goes on.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the only real advantage that I might be able to see is that
>> FreeBSD
>>> has more hardware support, but that may not be the defining factor for
>> me.
>>> 
>>> I am looking for that little gem in the rough, as it were, and do not
>>> always believe that mainstream is the only stream that can yield a bright
>>> future.
>>> 
>>> Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
>>> Thanks in advance
>>> Lonnie
>>> ___
>>> openindiana-discuss mailing list
>>> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
>>> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Andreas Wacknitz 

Am 15.07.20 um 08:38 schrieb Judah Richardson:

My disclaimer: I run several OS's, have been a Linux fan during its
infancy days until I realized that there are other OS's that suit me better.
I am running OI on servers and desktop. I'd say OI is my 2nd desktop,
MacOS being my 1st and Windows 3rd.

I you want to run OI (or any other illumos based OS) you definitely have
to select your hardware, especially if you want to run a desktop.
My recommendation: use a desktop computer (no notebook) with NVIDIA
graphics card. Install from a text install image and after reboot run
first an update (pkg update -v) and after this (and another reboot) pkg
install mate_install. This will bring you X11 and Mate Desktop.
While using it you will find out how to find and install missing packages.

The hardware support for desktop computers (especially for notebooks)
had been limited on illumos's origin - OpenSolaris - and haven't gotten
better since the fork because commercial illumos companies are focused
on servers and enhancements for the desktop are only done coincidentely
by them.


I run both FreeBSD and OpenIndiana on their own bare metal devices, so what
I'm about to say is based on my own experience. I hope it doesn't upset
anyone.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:21 PM Lonnie Cumberland 
wrote:


Greetings All,

Hope that everyone one is well today.

Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD,

OpenIndiana advantages:

1. RBAC
2. Good documentation *for functionality inherited from Solaris* via
Solaris' docs
3. Stability
4. Zones
5. Unix (FreeBSD is Unix-like)
6. DE included in installer
7. TimeSlider
8. GParted (if you can get it to work)
9. More repos available than just the OS' repo

10. Crossbow (network virtualization)
11. mdb / kmdb (modular debugger is a special low level debugger - can
you single step into your running OS?)
12. BHyve and KVM (BHyve from FreeBSD and KVM from Linux)
13. Boot environments out of the box (addon on FreeBSD) - Update your
system on a different ZFS file system,
  then boot into it and if something bad happened revert to an
older boot environment!
  I don't want to live without this anymore!
14. CIFS/SMB implementation - inherited from Solaris and heavily
enhanced during the last months (by Nexenta)
  As long as you don't want to run your own AD on your machine you
don't need Samba for serving or using SMB!
  It's well integrated with the rest of the OS.
15. FMA (Fault Management Architecture) - well integrated fault
management that interacts with SMF

the next two are controverse:
15. SMF - the Service Management Framework - I'd say an init replacement
almost done right
16. IPS (Image Packaging System) - a package management system that is
special; very powerful but very slow (python) and for OI a resource hog.
  That being said, somebody is working on an alternative
implementation that should increase its speed dramatically
  (alpha test version hopefully by the end of the year).



or perhaps the other way around.
FreeBSD advantages:

1. Much better 3rd party package support (including recent Firefox
releases
2. Much larger userbase
3. Much better documentation of the OS itself (documentation of Illumos
itself is relatively lacking; Solaris docs remain the best resource)
4. Actual proper UEFI support
5. Much better hardware support
6. Lower RAM usage
7. Actual modern DE (I don't consider OI's MATE to be anywhere near
current gen) available and easily installed via FuryBSD 3rd party installer
(which is basically a stock FreeBSD installation with KDE included)
8. Single, well-documented control planes/locations for many critical
features
9. Much easier email notification setup
10. Jails
11. Can do UFS installation if ZFS isn't your thing. Wouldn't recommend
it, but it's possible
12. Config is a lot more straightforward and consistent
13. Behavior is sufficiently consistent and well-understood that
seemingly complicated issues can be more easily remotely troubleshot than
on other OSes

If I had to choose between the 2, I'd run FreeBSD because at least if I
have a problem there's a proper handbook and I'll get probably 5 replies in
r/FreeBSD or r/BSD instead 1 or 0 in r/Illumos and r/unix.


I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features with
exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
although this could change as time goes on.


If you were migrating from Solaris, I'd recommend Illumos. Coming from
Linux, definitely FreeBSD. That said, you will lose some hardware and
package support on FreeBSD vs. Linux, and most tooling is built around
Linux.

I have been searching for a desktop

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Jonathan Adams 
In my production systems, I used a combination of lots of OSs.

I used OI for it's zones and networking. I used Linux for virtual box, web
services and open VPN. I used freeNAS for file serving.

These roles and usages changed over time, as I also used to use OI as my
web gateways, and for my static VPN, but with the layoffs and reduction in
sites and people, I had to simplify.

Don't underestimate how good the networking in OI is, it's a killer feature.

Jon

On Wed, 15 Jul 2020, 08:10 Guenther Alka,  wrote:

>
> Both are Unix Options and both have unique use cases.
> Since around a year Open-ZFS in Illumos includes newest ZFS features
> like encryption and special vdevs while they are at first beta in
> Free-BSD but soon Free-BSD should include them as well.
>
> For me the main advantage of Illumos are the Solaris inherited features.
> This is mainly the "this is a whole storage operating system without 3rd
> party services, evetything included from Sun made by Sun". Even a very
> minimalistic Illumos distribution comes with the kernel based SMB server
> that I always prefer over SAMBA due its often better performance and
> better Windows ntfs alike features due nfs4 ACL support (ntfs alike)
> with Windows sid as extended ZFS features (Windows AD ACL remain intact
> if you move a pool), local SMB groups that are Windows compatible (Unix
> groups are not), always working ZFS snaps as Windows previous versions
> and mainly its simlicity. Turn it on and it just works. Add NFS from the
> inventor of NFS and FC/iSCSI support with the enterprise class Comstar
> stack or virtual networking.
>
> Sun build the OpenSolaris OS more or less around ZFS so ZFS integration
> is simply the best. Illumos inherited this. While OmniOS/Illumos is the
> production ready storage server option with stable, long term stable and
> a commercial support option, OpenIndiana/Illumos is the successor of the
> OpenSolaris idea of an OS with additional GUI desktop or management
> options and a lot of services and more or less pure ongoing Illumos.
>
> gea
> @napp-it.org
>
>
> Am 15.07.2020 um 03:20 schrieb Lonnie Cumberland:
> > Greetings All,
> >
> > Hope that everyone one is well today.
> >
> > Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
> > question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
> > based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD, or perhaps the other way around.
> >
> > I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
> > be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features
> with
> > exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
> > although this could change as time goes on.
> >
> > Perhaps the only real advantage that I might be able to see is that
> FreeBSD
> > has more hardware support, but that may not be the defining factor for
> me.
> >
> > I am looking for that little gem in the rough, as it were, and do not
> > always believe that mainstream is the only stream that can yield a bright
> > future.
> >
> > Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
> > Thanks in advance
> > Lonnie
> > ___
> > openindiana-discuss mailing list
> > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
> > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Guenther Alka 



Both are Unix Options and both have unique use cases.
Since around a year Open-ZFS in Illumos includes newest ZFS features 
like encryption and special vdevs while they are at first beta in 
Free-BSD but soon Free-BSD should include them as well.


For me the main advantage of Illumos are the Solaris inherited features. 
This is mainly the "this is a whole storage operating system without 3rd 
party services, evetything included from Sun made by Sun". Even a very 
minimalistic Illumos distribution comes with the kernel based SMB server 
that I always prefer over SAMBA due its often better performance and 
better Windows ntfs alike features due nfs4 ACL support (ntfs alike) 
with Windows sid as extended ZFS features (Windows AD ACL remain intact 
if you move a pool), local SMB groups that are Windows compatible (Unix 
groups are not), always working ZFS snaps as Windows previous versions 
and mainly its simlicity. Turn it on and it just works. Add NFS from the 
inventor of NFS and FC/iSCSI support with the enterprise class Comstar 
stack or virtual networking.


Sun build the OpenSolaris OS more or less around ZFS so ZFS integration 
is simply the best. Illumos inherited this. While OmniOS/Illumos is the 
production ready storage server option with stable, long term stable and 
a commercial support option, OpenIndiana/Illumos is the successor of the 
OpenSolaris idea of an OS with additional GUI desktop or management 
options and a lot of services and more or less pure ongoing Illumos.


gea
@napp-it.org


Am 15.07.2020 um 03:20 schrieb Lonnie Cumberland:

Greetings All,

Hope that everyone one is well today.

Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD, or perhaps the other way around.

I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features with
exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
although this could change as time goes on.

Perhaps the only real advantage that I might be able to see is that FreeBSD
has more hardware support, but that may not be the defining factor for me.

I am looking for that little gem in the rough, as it were, and do not
always believe that mainstream is the only stream that can yield a bright
future.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Lonnie
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-15 Thread Judah Richardson 
I run both FreeBSD and OpenIndiana on their own bare metal devices, so what
I'm about to say is based on my own experience. I hope it doesn't upset
anyone.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:21 PM Lonnie Cumberland 
wrote:

> Greetings All,
>
> Hope that everyone one is well today.
>
> Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
> question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
> based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD,

OpenIndiana advantages:

   1. RBAC
   2. Good documentation *for functionality inherited from Solaris* via
   Solaris' docs
   3. Stability
   4. Zones
   5. Unix (FreeBSD is Unix-like)
   6. DE included in installer
   7. TimeSlider
   8. GParted (if you can get it to work)
   9. More repos available than just the OS' repo

or perhaps the other way around.
>
FreeBSD advantages:

   1. Much better 3rd party package support (including recent Firefox
   releases
   2. Much larger userbase
   3. Much better documentation of the OS itself (documentation of Illumos
   itself is relatively lacking; Solaris docs remain the best resource)
   4. Actual proper UEFI support
   5. Much better hardware support
   6. Lower RAM usage
   7. Actual modern DE (I don't consider OI's MATE to be anywhere near
   current gen) available and easily installed via FuryBSD 3rd party installer
   (which is basically a stock FreeBSD installation with KDE included)
   8. Single, well-documented control planes/locations for many critical
   features
   9. Much easier email notification setup
   10. Jails
   11. Can do UFS installation if ZFS isn't your thing. Wouldn't recommend
   it, but it's possible
   12. Config is a lot more straightforward and consistent
   13. Behavior is sufficiently consistent and well-understood that
   seemingly complicated issues can be more easily remotely troubleshot than
   on other OSes

If I had to choose between the 2, I'd run FreeBSD because at least if I
have a problem there's a proper handbook and I'll get probably 5 replies in
r/FreeBSD or r/BSD instead 1 or 0 in r/Illumos and r/unix.

>
> I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
> be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features with
> exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
> although this could change as time goes on.
>
If you were migrating from Solaris, I'd recommend Illumos. Coming from
Linux, definitely FreeBSD. That said, you will lose some hardware and
package support on FreeBSD vs. Linux, and most tooling is built around
Linux.

>
> Perhaps the only real advantage that I might be able to see is that FreeBSD
> has more hardware support, but that may not be the defining factor for me.
>
This might be a bigger deal than you'd think. I recently went through a
fresh OI install and was more than a bit disappointed that in AD 2020 I
still can't achieve UEFI boot. To be clear, other OSes UEFI boot on that
same hardware just fine.

>
> I am looking for that little gem in the rough, as it were, and do not
> always believe that mainstream is the only stream that can yield a bright
> future.
>
I run both of the above, in addition to 3 release channels of Windows, 3
Linux distros, and Android, because I love OSes and am fascinated by the
different approaches various projects take to solve the same problems.
You'll learn a lot regardless of which one you choose.

>
> Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks in advance
> Lonnie
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>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-14 Thread Michael Schuster 
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 3:21 AM Lonnie Cumberland 
wrote:

> Greetings All,
>
> Hope that everyone one is well today.
>
> Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
> question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
> based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD, or perhaps the other way around.
>

It depends ...
... on what you want to do.

regards
Michael


>
> I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
> be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features with
> exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
> although this could change as time goes on.
>
> Perhaps the only real advantage that I might be able to see is that FreeBSD
> has more hardware support, but that may not be the defining factor for me.
>
> I am looking for that little gem in the rough, as it were, and do not
> always believe that mainstream is the only stream that can yield a bright
> future.
>
> Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks in advance
> Lonnie
> ___
> openindiana-discuss mailing list
> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
>


-- 
Michael Schuster
http://recursiveramblings.wordpress.com/
recursion, n: see 'recursion'
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[OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana vs FreeBSD

2020-07-14 Thread Lonnie Cumberland 
Greetings All,

Hope that everyone one is well today.

Although I am assuming that this may not be the best place to ask this
question, I am wondering if there is an advantage of Openindiana (Illumos
based) or perhaps OmniOS over FreeBSD, or perhaps the other way around.

I am going to move from Linux to either OpenIndian or FreeBSD and seem to
be caught in the middle as both seem to have almost the same features with
exception that FreeBSD may have more support streams over OpenIndiana
although this could change as time goes on.

Perhaps the only real advantage that I might be able to see is that FreeBSD
has more hardware support, but that may not be the defining factor for me.

I am looking for that little gem in the rough, as it were, and do not
always believe that mainstream is the only stream that can yield a bright
future.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Lonnie
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