Re: [openrailwaymap] Weichentypen nahe Hamburg Hbf.

2016-10-07 Thread Björn Mahrt 
Moin,

an den Weichen (die genauen Verläufe sind eh noch nicht drin, der Bereich der 
S-Bahn-Ausfädelung ist etwas unschön zu "besichtigen", ich kann heute aber mal 
ein Video machen) bin ich eh noch dran. Da unten gibt es aber definitiv eine 
Kreuzung und EKW mit außenliegenden Zungen... Mglw. sind einige der "einfachen" 
Weichen 3-8 aber auch ABW/IBW, v.a. die der östlichen Einfädelung nach Gl. 1 
macht mir den Eindruck, ohne es genauer überprüft zu haben.

Dazu: Gibt es eigentlich eine Möglichkeit, mit hinreichend guter Sicherheit aus 
Luftbildern die Weichenbauart, also insb. Herzstücksteigung (wie taggt man die? 
außer in note...) und Weichenradius zu ermitteln? Wenn ja, könnte man dazu in 
JOSM eine Unterstützung anbieten? 

Viele Grüße
Björn


> Gesendet: Freitag, 07. Oktober 2016 um 15:15 Uhr
> Von: "Denis Stein" 
> An: OpenRailwayMap 
> Betreff: [openrailwaymap] Weichentypen nahe Hamburg Hbf.
>
> Hallo zusammen,
> 
> wer Ortskenntnis und Zeit hat, darf gern noch die Weichentypen nahe 
> Hamburg Hbf. nachtragen (Luftbilder gibt es davon keine ;-). Gesucht 
> sind insbesondere:
> 
> - vmtl. Kreuzungsweichen am Übergang in S-Bahn-Tunnel [1+2]
> - vmtl. einfache Weichen [3-8]
> 
> Danke und viele Grüße,
> 
> Denis.
> 
> [1] 
> 
> [2] 
> 
> [3] 
> 
> [4] 
> 
> [5] 
> 
> [6] 
> 
> [7] 
> 
> [8] 
> 
> -- 
> .
> Dipl.-Inf. Denis Stein
> Research Scientist
> Research Division ISPE | Research Department MPS
> 
> FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik
> Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10–14
> 76131 Karlsruhe, Germany
> 
> Tel.: +49 721 9654-276
> 
> st...@fzi.de
> www.fzi.de/mitarbeiter/stein
> 
> .
> FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik am Karlsruher Institut für Technologie
> Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Stiftung Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe
> Vorstand: Prof. Dr. Andreas Oberweis, Prof. Dr. Ralf Reussner,
> Jan Wiesenberger, Prof. Dr.-Ing. J. Marius Zöllner
> Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus
> .
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[openrailwaymap] Weichentypen nahe Hamburg Hbf.

2016-10-07 Thread Denis Stein 

Hallo zusammen,

wer Ortskenntnis und Zeit hat, darf gern noch die Weichentypen nahe 
Hamburg Hbf. nachtragen (Luftbilder gibt es davon keine ;-). Gesucht 
sind insbesondere:


- vmtl. Kreuzungsweichen am Übergang in S-Bahn-Tunnel [1+2]
- vmtl. einfache Weichen [3-8]

Danke und viele Grüße,

Denis.

[1] 

[2] 

[3] 

[4] 

[5] 

[6] 

[7] 

[8] 

--
.
Dipl.-Inf. Denis Stein
Research Scientist
Research Division ISPE | Research Department MPS

FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik
Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10–14
76131 Karlsruhe, Germany

Tel.: +49 721 9654-276

st...@fzi.de
www.fzi.de/mitarbeiter/stein

.
FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik am Karlsruher Institut für Technologie
Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Stiftung Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe
Vorstand: Prof. Dr. Andreas Oberweis, Prof. Dr. Ralf Reussner,
Jan Wiesenberger, Prof. Dr.-Ing. J. Marius Zöllner
Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus
.
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[openrailwaymap] Life cycle tags vs. current state

2016-10-07 Thread Denis Stein 

Dear all,

when checking several maps in Germany, I found an area containing 
remnant after reconstruction (node [1] and adjacent ways; find attached 
also a sketch in a PDF file) where the tagging is not yet ideal 
(besides, e.g., railway:switch=default vs. 4 edges; upper right track is 
not rendered on openstreetmap.org due to tagging), but I do not have 
enough local and temporal knowledge.


I subsequently assume that the Bing aerial image shows the current state 
with a probably removed diamond crossing with slips (einfache/doppelte 
Kreuzungsweiche) and some rails nearby.


Probably, this is no problem for routing since tracks, which are tagged 
as abandoned or disused, might be ignored.


Considering the use of the map for environment perception and 
localization (for research purposes; using OSM where one can quickly 
obtain a map from any space) the train can use neither the lower left 
nor the upper right track without derailment, since there is no physical 
connection any more. But, both ways are still connected to this centre 
node. Infering non-existence of switches from missing switch-tags is not 
a proper solution, since in most case there is a switch, but not yet a 
corresponding tag.


For such special places I would prefer the lower tagging in my sketch 
splitting both unusable ways in a shorter abandoned part and a disused 
part taking also into account the past (using correct life cycle tags).


How would you tag this scenario (assuming time and attention to detail)?
What arguments are opposing my proposal?

I am looking forward to receiving your helpful comments. Many thanks in 
advance!


Kind regards,

Denis.

[1] 

--
.
Dipl.-Inf. Denis Stein
Research Scientist
Research Division ISPE | Research Department MPS

FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik
Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10–14
76131 Karlsruhe, Germany

Tel.: +49 721 9654-276

st...@fzi.de
www.fzi.de/mitarbeiter/stein

.
FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik am Karlsruher Institut für Technologie
Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Stiftung Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe
Vorstand: Prof. Dr. Andreas Oberweis, Prof. Dr. Ralf Reussner,
Jan Wiesenberger, Prof. Dr.-Ing. J. Marius Zöllner
Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus
.


1314_001.pdf
Description: 1314_001.pdf
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Re: [openrailwaymap] DE: Optimale Position von railway:switch-Nodes u.a. / EN: optimum position of railway:switch nodes etc.

2016-10-07 Thread Denis Stein 

Dear all,

Thank you for your valuable answers and sorry for my delay. After 
checking several stations (Munich, Karlsruhe, Nuremberg, Frankfurt, 
Hamburg) and shunting yards (Nuremberg, Maschen) I would like to add 
some further remarks.


Am 20.09.2016 um 21:57 schrieb Roland Hieber:

On 19.09.2016 19:02, Denis Stein wrote:

P1. Proposals for the position of tags for single turnouts
(abbreviation: ST; including both straight as well as curved ones):
P1(a) Tip of the switch blade (i.e., the position where the route
  changes; might be also recognized by the point machine in aerial
  images)
P1(b) Tip of the frog ("massif" part; can be approximated from the
  intersection of both inner rails)
P1(c) another proposal?

P2. Proposals for the position of tags for diamond crossings
(abbreviation: DC):
P2(a) Center of DC, i.e. intersection of both track centerlines
P2(b) another proposal?

P3. Proposals for tagging of complex switches:
P3.1 Decompose them whenever applicable:
 - diamond crossing with ... slips:
   * single = 2x ST + 1x DC
   * double = 4x ST + 1x DC
 - three-way switch = 2x ST


Especially to Michael: Yes, "three_way" equals Doppelweiche in German, 
but seems to be used not that much [1, 2].



 (solves also the route ambiguity problem in single slip case)
P3.2 Tag those parts according to P1 and P2.

_My favorite_ is: P1(a) + P2(a) + P3.1 + P3.2, which considers the
position of turnouts and diamond crossing and clearly defines the
drivable routes on them clearly.


Yes, that is what I tagged in the past and it's also my favourite
because it's suited best for routing purposes as well as collision
detection (in conjunction with track gauge). Especially because for
roads we also tag the centerline, so there is the principle of least
surprise, and algorithms can be reused for railways.


I fully agree. This decomposition of switches is quite often used in 
Karlsruhe, but most of the other above mentioned places are not yet 
tagged like this (feel free to ask me for a detailed list of node-IDs; I 
checked especially "single_slip" (einfache Kreuzungsweiche)).


Am 20.09.2016 um 16:23 schrieb Michael Reichert:

I prefer to map single and double slips like diamond crossings but
with special tags. If we want to map the possible turnout directions of
single slips, I would use turn restriction relations as used on
roads. Routing engines have been supporting turn restrictions for many
years. To reduce the number of turn restrictions which have to have
mapped, I would not map a relations if it is just the opposite of
another turn restriction on that point (i.e. copy of another relation
but from and to members are switched).


Using one node for the whole switch might be ok. However, there are only 
280 nodes tagged as "single_slip" [3]. Unfortunately, turn restrictions 
are -- considering the seven places mentioned above -- only used in 
Karlsruhe (feel free to ask me for a detailed list of singe_slip 
node-IDs and a comprehensive overview on single/double_slip nodes in 
Karlsruhe). Thus, tagging one node as "single_slip" is fine. The ideal 
solution would be a decomposition in three nodes as previously proposed 
which in turn avoids the use of turn restrictions.



While writing a routing engine for trains becomes easier if we map
single/double slips as simple points, rendering a nice map
(especially track layout diagrams becomes more difficult) becomes more
difficult. There are several OSM-based routing engines which already
support turn restrictions but there is no software which simplifies
double slip points mapped in a way you propose. (In general,
cartographic generalization of geospatial data beyond a simplification
of the geometry is more difficult than parsing turn restrictions)


In my opinion, there is no need for a automatic decomposition in a 
routing engine etc. My proposal considers only (future) "tagging 
guidelines".


Off-topic: Are there any (OSM-based) routing engines for railway vehicles?

Kind regards,

Denis.

[1] 

[2] 



[3] 



--
.
Dipl.-Inf. Denis Stein
Research Scientist
Research Division ISPE | Research Department MPS

FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik
Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10–14
76131 Karlsruhe, Germany

Tel.: +49 721 9654-276

st...@fzi.de
www.fzi.de/mitarbeiter/stein

.
FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik am Karlsruher Institut für Technologie
Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Stiftung Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe
Vorstand: Prof. Dr. Andreas Oberweis, Prof. Dr. Ralf Reussner,
Jan Wiesenberger, Prof. Dr.-Ing. J. Marius Zöllner
Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus

Re: [openrailwaymap] Is "deelectrified" really a good idea?

2016-10-07 Thread Denis Stein 

Dear all,

Am 26.09.2016 um 17:24 schrieb Michael Reichert:

Active: railway=rail;*=*

Removed: railway=abandoned;abandoned:railway=rail;abandoned:*=*


abanoned:railway=* (aka lifecycle tagging scheme) competes with the
tagging used for non-operational roads (e.g. highway=construction +
construction=motorway). OpenRailwayMap currently tries to support
tagging scheme and I think that we should not force anyone to move from
one tagging scheme to another also it is better in the case of a
cycleway or road built on a former railway track (and the road currently
being closed due to construction works).

In future (future means many months, not many years), OpenRailwayMap
could enforce adding abandoned:railway=* or abandoned=* (and the same
for disused, construction etc.) to get the features rendered. We did
this already with usage=* (tracks without usage tag get rendered really
late) and railway:signal:direction. We just have to inform mappers a
while beforehand to prevent to much anger. :-)


Similar topic, same issue: Can/Shall the lifecycle tagging scheme also 
be used for nodes?


E.g., near Hamburg Hbf. a node [1] is currently tagged as follows:


railway:disused=switch
railway:local_operated=no
railway:switch=default


I would prefer two additional tags:


disused:railway=switch
railway:disused=switch
railway:local_operated=no
railway:switch=default
railway=disused


However, JOSM complains on the usage of "railway=disused" on nodes.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Kind regards,

Denis.

[1] 

--
.
Dipl.-Inf. Denis Stein
Research Scientist
Research Division ISPE | Research Department MPS

FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik
Haid-und-Neu-Str. 10–14
76131 Karlsruhe, Germany

Tel.: +49 721 9654-276

st...@fzi.de
www.fzi.de/mitarbeiter/stein

.
FZI Forschungszentrum Informatik am Karlsruher Institut für Technologie
Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Stiftung Az: 14-0563.1 Regierungspräsidium Karlsruhe
Vorstand: Prof. Dr. Andreas Oberweis, Prof. Dr. Ralf Reussner,
Jan Wiesenberger, Prof. Dr.-Ing. J. Marius Zöllner
Vorsitzender des Kuratoriums: Ministerialdirigent Günther Leßnerkraus
.
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