Re: Goodbye

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 12:51:19PM +, Salz, Rich via openssl-users wrote:
>   *   topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
> 
>   *
> 
>   *   4 against, 3 for, no absensions
> 
> I am at a loss for words.
> 
> I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.

I would like to point out that the only thing that was voted on
was to accept the pull request as a whole.

A new pull request that removes the word slave has made and has been
approved.


Kurt

[THREAD CLOSED] Re: Goodbye

[Viktor Dukhovni]

On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 12:38:55PM -0700, Dan Kegel wrote:
> There's nothing wrong with being inclusive.  Buildbot
> was not harmed by removing the word 'slave' from
> its codebase.

In case it is not yet abundantly clear, social justince discussions are
off-topic for this list.  Please stop.  If this thread does not die down
soon, we may have start unsubscribing offenders.

-- 
Viktor.

Re: Goodbye

[Dan Kegel]

There's nothing wrong with being inclusive.  Buildbot
was not harmed by removing the word 'slave' from
its codebase.
- Dan

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 12:33 PM Donald R Laster Jr 
wrote:

> Dan,
>
>The words "slave" and "master" have no negative or positive
> connotations in relation to software or even hardware.  They are simply
> description of the purpose/function of the software or hardware.
>
>As I said this is nothing but classic political correctness. People
> need to stop being offended at things which are not offensive.  This is no
> different than someone getting offended at the use of the words "servant"
> and "master", or "boss" and "employee", or "parent" and "child".  Changing
> the software and documentation simply because someone does not like the use
> of appropriate terms is a waste of time.  And likely to create problems in
> the future due to changes that serve no purpose.
>
>Don
>
> Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 02:09 PM:
> > It might be worth reminding folks of
> > https://www.openssl.org/community/conduct.html
> > which says
> > "We strive to be an open and inclusive community where anyone can
> contribute."
> > - Dan
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 11:02 AM Donald R Laster Jr  > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Having just noticed the last 4 or 5 emails related to this thread I
> have to say this is classic political correctness garbage.
> > Don
> >
> > Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 11:35 AM:
> >  > Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!
> >  >
> >  > When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair
> bit of... discussion, see
> >  > http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
> >  > The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which
> was a LOT of
> >  > work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
> >  > It came up again recently, see
> >  > https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
> >  > and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word
> 'master'.
> >  >
> >  > Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's
> my two cents as an openssl user:
> >  > I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most
> offensive word or two
> >  > first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start
> immediately, that's
> >  > ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus
> and
> >  > elbow grease.
> >  > - Dan
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear <
> l...@ofcourseimright.com   l...@ofcourseimright.com >> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to
> this
> >  > community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation
> moved along.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> > --
>
>

Re: Goodbye

[Viktor Dukhovni]

On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 03:12:15PM -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> To suggest that choice of language is irrelevant is ill-informed to
> sneer at it is plain stupid.

Let's avoid name calling (and while were' at it, actually close this
unproductive thread).

-- 
VIktor.

Re: Goodbye

[Matthew Heimlich]

I see a lot of slippery slope fallacy in this thread. A small verbiage
change that hurts almost no one but increases inclusivity in an open source
project shouldn't be controversial to anyone but those who have an ax to
grind.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020, 8:51 AM Salz, Rich via openssl-users <
openssl-users@openssl.org> wrote:

>
>- topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
>
>
>-
>
>
>- 4 against, 3 for, no absensions
>
>
>
> I am at a loss for words.
>
>
>
> I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at
> [1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC members)
> is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in time, the four
> men who voted against it will develop more – what, empathy? – and that
> sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar, will be merged.  Until
> then, I will do what I have to in order to insure that Akamai’s needs for
> FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will be fully applying my modest
> talents elsewhere.
>
>
>
> I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in my
> inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz at
> akamai.com.
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html
>
> [2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/
>
> [3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089
>
>
>

Re: Goodbye

[Frans de Boer]

On 03-07-2020 14:51, Salz, Rich via openssl-users wrote:


  * topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089

 *

  * 4 against, 3 for, no absensions

I am at a loss for words.

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at 
[1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC 
members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in 
time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what, 
empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar, 
will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to 
insure that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, 
I will be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.


I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in 
my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz 
at akamai.com.


[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html

[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/

[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089 



What is next, attack the jing/jang colors or renaming the night from 
black to colorless?


I think this black/white or master/slave thing is blowing things out of 
proportion.
Humans have all kind of colors, including colorless and white. And when 
I think of master/slave, it is just a principle - something is 
controlling something else. That there was a period where white people 
controlled the fate of "black" people is a colorless period in human 
history. Which should not be forgotten, but remembered as a period with 
lots of wrong doing to other human beings.


I understand that white people should not talk about "negros" or the 
like, but colorless people think they can still us this awful word. Now, 
who is dictating who? Don't do/say things you would not have it from 
others to yourself.


Black is not negative by definition, it is what your mind associate it with.

--- Frans.


--
A: Yes, just like thatA: Ja, net zo
Q: Oh, Just like reading a book backwards Q: Oh, net als een boek 
achterstevoren lezen
A: Because it upsets the natural flow of a story  A: Omdat het de natuurlijke 
gang uit het verhaal haalt
Q: Why is top-posting annoying?   Q: Waarom is Top-posting zo 
irritant?

Re: Goodbye

[Phillip Hallam-Baker]

For many people involved in developing cryptographic infrastructures,
politics are a major concern.

Getting the politics correct is important.

The true power in this world lies in shaping what people believe. What my
friend Joe Nye calls 'soft power'. To suggest that choice of language is
irrelevant is ill-informed to sneer at it is plain stupid.


On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:46 PM Donald R Laster Jr 
wrote:

>
> Having just noticed the last 4 or 5 emails related to this thread I have
> to say this is classic political correctness garbage.
>Don
>
> Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 11:35 AM:
> > Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!
> >
> > When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit
> of... discussion, see
> > http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
> > The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a
> LOT of
> > work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
> > It came up again recently, see
> > https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
> > and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.
> >
> > Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two
> cents as an openssl user:
> > I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive
> word or two
> > first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start
> immediately, that's
> > ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and
> > elbow grease.
> > - Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear  > wrote:
> >
> > Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
> > community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved
> along.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> ==
>
> Donald R. Laster Jr.
> 25 Heidl Ave
> West Long Branch, NJ 07764
>
> Email : las...@dlaster.com
>  donaldrlaste...@gmail.com (Cell)
>
> Phone : (732) 263-9235 (Home Evening)
>  (732) 263-9236 (Home Office)
>  (732) 539-5658 (Cell)
>  (732) 263-9280 (Fax)
>
> --
>
> Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test
> a man's character, give him power.  -- Abraham Lincoln
>
> ==
>

Re: Goodbye

[Viktor Dukhovni]

The issue is moot for now, let's move on.

-- 
Viktor.

Re: Goodbye

[Dan Kegel]

It might be worth reminding folks of
https://www.openssl.org/community/conduct.html
which says
"We strive to be an open and inclusive community where anyone can
contribute."
- Dan


On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 11:02 AM Donald R Laster Jr 
wrote:

>
> Having just noticed the last 4 or 5 emails related to this thread I have
> to say this is classic political correctness garbage.
>Don
>
> Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 11:35 AM:
> > Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!
> >
> > When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit
> of... discussion, see
> > http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
> > The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a
> LOT of
> > work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
> > It came up again recently, see
> > https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
> > and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.
> >
> > Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two
> cents as an openssl user:
> > I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive
> word or two
> > first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start
> immediately, that's
> > ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and
> > elbow grease.
> > - Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear  > wrote:
> >
> > Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
> > community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved
> along.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> ==
>
> Donald R. Laster Jr.
> 25 Heidl Ave
> West Long Branch, NJ 07764
>
> Email : las...@dlaster.com
>  donaldrlaste...@gmail.com (Cell)
>
> Phone : (732) 263-9235 (Home Evening)
>  (732) 263-9236 (Home Office)
>  (732) 539-5658 (Cell)
>  (732) 263-9280 (Fax)
>
> --
>
> Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test
> a man's character, give him power.  -- Abraham Lincoln
>
> ==
>
>

Re: Goodbye

[Thomas J. Hruska]

Rich, I just want to wish you well on your future endeavors.  You've got 
valuable skills as a software developer.  Hopefully whatever negative 
experiences you've recently encountered won't dissuade you from 
contributing to open source projects in the future.  There are, after 
all, an infinite number of exciting things to still be done in software.


--
Thomas Hruska
Shining Light Productions

Home of BMP2AVI and Win32 OpenSSL.
http://www.slproweb.com/

Re: Goodbye

[Donald R Laster Jr]

Having just noticed the last 4 or 5 emails related to this thread I have to say 
this is classic political correctness garbage.
  Don

Dan Kegel wrote on 07/04/2020 11:35 AM:

Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!

When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit of... 
discussion, see
http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a LOT of
work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
It came up again recently, see
https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.

Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two cents 
as an openssl user:
I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive word or two
first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start immediately, 
that's
ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and
elbow grease.
- Dan



On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear mailto:l...@ofcourseimright.com>> wrote:

Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.





--
==

Donald R. Laster Jr.
25 Heidl Ave
West Long Branch, NJ 07764

Email : las...@dlaster.com
donaldrlaste...@gmail.com (Cell)

Phone : (732) 263-9235 (Home Evening)
(732) 263-9236 (Home Office)
(732) 539-5658 (Cell)
(732) 263-9280 (Fax)

--

   Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test
   a man's character, give him power.  -- Abraham Lincoln

==

Re: Goodbye

[Dan Kegel]

Likewise.  Thank you, Rich!

When this issue came up in Buildbot 5 years ago, there was a fair bit of...
discussion, see
http://trac.buildbot.net/ticket/2340
The resolution back then was to rename 'slave' to 'worker', which was a LOT
of
work, and seemed to satisfy everybody at the time.
It came up again recently, see
https://github.com/buildbot/buildbot/issues/5382
and they're now looking at whether and how to address the word 'master'.

Not having noticed this discussion in openssl until today, here's my two
cents as an openssl user:
I think an incremental approach is fine, clean up the most offensive word
or two
first, and then see where things land.  And if it can't start immediately,
that's
ok, it took buildbot a while to come up with the needed consensus and
elbow grease.
- Dan



On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:10 PM Eliot Lear  wrote:

> Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
> community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.
>
>
>
>

Re: Goodbye

[Eliot Lear]

Can we please put the knives a way?  Rich has given a lot to this
community.  As an openssl user, I'd rather the conversation moved along.





signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Goodbye

[Nico Williams]

On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 05:45:22PM +, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
> > Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.
> 
> I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a
> representative of Akamai.

Hi Jordan,

It's pretty clear that Rich was insinuating that the OMC are a bunch of
racists, and that they should be canceled.  He didn't _say_ it, but
strongly implied it, or at least that was the message received by some.
It's fair to suppose it was the intended message.  And Rich specifically
referred to his employer, not in his signature as you refer to yours,
but in the text of his post.  No, Rich did not say his words and actions
represent Akamai, but still, he referred to Akamai specifically.  More
about this below.

The OMC is staffed by real people, with real families, and the
disagreement here did not rise to the point where one should dox the OMC
members and imply that their employers should terminate their
employment.  They do not deserve what Rich implies.  I know one of them
well, one who voted against Rich's PR, and I assure you he's no racist.

Rich didn't care to be polite.  No!  He meant to _provoke_, and not just
replies like Marc's, but actual action against the OMC's members.  I
won't call out Akamai on account of Rich's behavior because I don't want
to do what he did, but I don't blame anyone else for doing it -- Rich
made it fair game by doing it first.  But we must call out behavior like
Rich's -- it's simply not acceptable.

Nico
-- 

Re: Goodbye

[tincanteksup]

If you are lucky .. enjoy your 4th

Most of us are not so lucky ..

Re: Goodbye

[tincanteksup]

On 03/07/2020 13:51, Salz, Rich via openssl-users wrote:

   *   topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089

   *

   *   4 against, 3 for, no absensions

I am at a loss for words.

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at [1], a 
picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC members) is, in my 
view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in time, the four men who voted 
against it will develop more – what, empathy? – and that sometime in the future 
this PR [3], or similar, will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to 
in order to insure that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is 
released, I will be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.

I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in my inbox, 
I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz at akamai.com.

[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html
[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/
[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089



Democracy .. it's not every-bodies cup of tea.

Remember:

Sticks and stones may break my bones
but WORDS will never hurt me.

Re: Goodbye

[Viktor Dukhovni]

This is not the appropriate forum for dissecting the personal actions
individual contributors.

Let's return to OpenSSL- related topics.  It would be best if there
are no further posts in this thread.

-- 
Viktor.

Re: Goodbye

[Jordan Brown]

On 7/3/2020 10:46 AM, Karl Denninger wrote:
> On 7/3/2020 13:45, Jordan Brown wrote:
>> On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
>>> Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.
>> I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a
>> representative of Akamai.
>
> Sorry, that's not how it works.
>
> You post and reference a corporate email address, which he did, /you
> just took the action under the banner of the company./
>
> Akamai is entirely _*and justifiably*_ exposed to being "canceled" on
> that basis.
>

I don't think that debating that question will be helpful, so I won't.

Perhaps I should be absolutely clear:  When I say "I think ...", I am
expressing my personal opinion and not the opinion of my employer,
Oracle.  I disclose my employer in my signature so as to be totally
transparent, not to serve as a spokesperson for the company.

(And if anybody is curious, I use one of my personal throw-away
addresses so that my work address doesn't get harvested for spam.  If
for some reason you'd like verification of my employment, send me e-mail
privately and I'll reply from the work address.)

-- 
Jordan Brown, Oracle ZFS Storage Appliance, Oracle Solaris

Re: Goodbye

[Karl Denninger]

On 7/3/2020 13:45, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
>> Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a
> representative of Akamai.
>
Sorry, that's not how it works.

You post and reference a corporate email address, which he did, /you
just took the action under the banner of the company./

Akamai is entirely _*and justifiably*_ exposed to being "canceled" on
that basis.

-- 
Karl Denninger
k...@denninger.net 
/The Market Ticker/
/[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Goodbye

[Jordan Brown]

On 7/3/2020 6:03 AM, Marc Roos wrote:
> Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking at the composition of the executive team.

I think it's pretty clear that Rich was speaking as himself, not as a
representative of Akamai.

-- 
Jordan Brown, Oracle ZFS Storage Appliance, Oracle Solaris

Re: Goodbye

[Mauricio Tavares]

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 9:03 AM Marc Roos  wrote:
>
>
> What a non-sense changing these words. Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking
> at the composition of the executive team.
>
> https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/
>
> https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/operating-committee.jsp
>
  To me it reminds me of the Minitrue RecDep.
>
> -Original Message-
> To: openssl-users
> Subject: Goodbye
>
> *   topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089
>
> *
>
> *   4 against, 3 for, no absensions
>
>
>
> I am at a loss for words.
>
>
>
> I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at
> [1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC
> members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in
> time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what,
> empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar,
> will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure
> that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will
> be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.
>
>
>
> I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in
> my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz
> at akamai.com.
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html
>
> [2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/
> <https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/>
>
> [3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089
> <https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089>
>
>
>
>

RE: Goodbye

[Marc Roos]

What a non-sense changing these words. Also hypocrite of Akamai, looking 
at the composition of the executive team.

https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/

https://www.akamai.com/us/en/about/leadership/executive-team/operating-committee.jsp





-Original Message-
To: openssl-users
Subject: Goodbye

*   topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089

*

*   4 against, 3 for, no absensions

 

I am at a loss for words.

 

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at 
[1], a picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC 
members) is, in my view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in 
time, the four men who voted against it will develop more – what, 
empathy? – and that sometime in the future this PR [3], or similar, 
will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to in order to insure 
that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is released, I will 
be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.

 

I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in 
my inbox, I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz 
at akamai.com.

 

[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html

[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/ 
<https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/> 

[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089 
<https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089> 

 

Goodbye

[Salz, Rich via openssl-users]

  *   topic: Change some words by accepting PR#12089

  *

  *   4 against, 3 for, no absensions

I am at a loss for words.

I can’t contribute to a project that feels this way.  The OMC (list at [1], a 
picture of some of them at [2] although it includes non-OMC members) is, in my 
view, on the wrong side of history. I hope that in time, the four men who voted 
against it will develop more – what, empathy? – and that sometime in the future 
this PR [3], or similar, will be merged.  Until then, I will do what I have to 
in order to insure that Akamai’s needs for FIPS are met and once 3.0 is 
released, I will be fully applying my modest talents elsewhere.

I have closed all non-FIPS PR’s, and as soon as I see this message in my inbox, 
I will unsubscribe from this list. I can be reached as rsalz at akamai.com.

[1] https://www.openssl.org/community/omc.html
[2] https://www.openssl.org/blog/blog/2019/05/23/f2f-committers-day/
[3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pull/12089