Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Caitlin Bestler]

Brebner, Gavin asked:

>Price ! Why provide expensive redundant storage when cheap disks will do just 
>as well ?

Because you are interested in the total cost.

Using excessive network replication rather than local replication makes for a 
more expensive
And less robust solution -- as long as the local replication is of high enough 
quality.

Typical hardware RAID solutions are too stupid to be effective here. But 
replicas can be created
by file systems such as ZFS far more cost effectively than doing an extra 
network replica, and 
still be just as independent and provide just as much protection from data loss.

See http://etherpad.openstack.org/YMTqYzPmZQ


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Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Caitlin Bestler]

There are numerous reasons why you would want your Swift Object Server to also 
host a NAS server.

But whether you are talking Nova volumes or Swift Objects, you would generally 
want the Volume Server
or Object Server to access those "directly" rather than via NAS over a general 
network connection.

There are a lot of trade-offs however. Realistically large JBOD arrays are not 
truly "direct attached", they
Are being accessed over a FC or SAS network. Currently SAS is a more cost 
effective method of connecting
A server with a large number of targets. 10 GbE networking might slightly 
outperform SAS, but the cost
per port is higher.

In addition to the connectivity issues, you would generally want to avoid 
adding an extra layer of name
Resolution before you reached your real data.



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Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Andrew Clay Shafer]

>
>
> *This link shows the integration of NexentaStor (a NAS/SAN integrated
>> storage solution) with Openstack Nova:
>> http://mirantis.blogspot.com/2011/11/converging-openstack-with-nexenta.html
>> *
>
>
>
> That's Nova, not Swift..
> In case of Nova, a NAS or SAN approach makes very much sense.
>

Running swift on a NAS is all downside. You can make it work, but I don't
see any benefit.

As an aside, above a moderate scale, NAS can start to get problematic for
Nova volumes as well, depending on the architecture and usage patterns.

Nexenta is productized ZFS. You could set up something similar providing
iscsi from other systems that support ZFS.
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Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Frederik Van Hecke]

Paulo,



> *I don't think anything prevents integrating Swift storage nodes with a
> NAS. Latency could be increased but depending on load, network capacity
> (shared vs dedicated), and use of caching, it is possible to achieve a good
> performance.*


Yes, but why would you do so..

Using NAS as storage target for Swift will as said increase the CAPEX price
and latency. And instead of 1 layer you'll have to 2 layers to manage and
maintain, which will increase operating cost. The only reason I can think
of why you might consider this is if you have a shitload of NAS systems in
your DC that you don't want to throw out the door just yet..

They both address the same problem (file storage) through a different
approach. NAS is practical for users, with NFS support built into
practically every OS. But there's a reason why we just don't stick to NAS
systems, they're expensive and hard to scale.

Using NAS as building block of Swift would take away the ease of use for
the user that NFS gives them (and what they're familiar with) but would
still leave you with all the problems at the operational side of the story.
Even worse, it would make it even more expensive and complicated.



*This link shows the integration of NexentaStor (a NAS/SAN integrated
> storage solution) with Openstack Nova:
> http://mirantis.blogspot.com/2011/11/converging-openstack-with-nexenta.html
> *



That's Nova, not Swift..
In case of Nova, a NAS or SAN approach makes very much sense.



Kind regards,
Frederik Van Hecke

*T:*  +32487733713
*E:*  frede...@cluttr.be
*W:* www.cluttr.be



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On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 15:21, Paulo Ricardo Motta Gomes <
pauloricard...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think anything prevents integrating Swift storage nodes with a
> NAS. Latency could be increased but depending on load, network capacity
> (shared vs dedicated), and use of caching, it is possible to achieve a good
> performance.
>
> This link shows the integration of NexentaStor (a NAS/SAN integrated
> storage solution) with Openstack Nova:
> http://mirantis.blogspot.com/2011/11/converging-openstack-with-nexenta.html
>
> 2012/3/16 John Dickinson 
>
>> Generally, you would introduce latency in the storage system by using a
>> NAS attached to a storage drive. Also, at scale, your costs will be
>> dominated by drive, so you will want to optimize the storage nodes for
>> dense, cheap storage.
>>
>> --John
>>
>>
>> On Mar 16, 2012, at 8:32 AM, Michaël Van de Borne wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > on the very useful www.referencearchitecture.org website, and in every
>> piece of documentation on Swift, I never found anything like a NAS attached
>> to a storage node. It was all about DAS solution.
>> > Is there a specific reason why a NAS wouldn't be a good choice to build
>> a swift infrastructure?
>> >
>> > thank you
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Michaël Van de Borne
>> > R&D Engineer, SOA team, CETIC
>> > Phone: +32 (0)71 49 07 45 Mobile: +32 (0)472 69 57 16, Skype:
>> mikemowgli
>> > www.cetic.be, rue des Frères Wright, 29/3, B-6041 Charleroi
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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>>
>
>
> --
> Paulo Ricardo
>
> --
> European Master in Distributed Computing***
> Royal Institute of Technology - KTH
> *
> *Instituto Superior Técnico - IST*
> *http://paulormg.com*
>
>
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Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Paulo Ricardo Motta Gomes]

I don't think anything prevents integrating Swift storage nodes with a NAS.
Latency could be increased but depending on load, network capacity (shared
vs dedicated), and use of caching, it is possible to achieve a good
performance.

This link shows the integration of NexentaStor (a NAS/SAN integrated
storage solution) with Openstack Nova:
http://mirantis.blogspot.com/2011/11/converging-openstack-with-nexenta.html

2012/3/16 John Dickinson 

> Generally, you would introduce latency in the storage system by using a
> NAS attached to a storage drive. Also, at scale, your costs will be
> dominated by drive, so you will want to optimize the storage nodes for
> dense, cheap storage.
>
> --John
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2012, at 8:32 AM, Michaël Van de Borne wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > on the very useful www.referencearchitecture.org website, and in every
> piece of documentation on Swift, I never found anything like a NAS attached
> to a storage node. It was all about DAS solution.
> > Is there a specific reason why a NAS wouldn't be a good choice to build
> a swift infrastructure?
> >
> > thank you
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michaël Van de Borne
> > R&D Engineer, SOA team, CETIC
> > Phone: +32 (0)71 49 07 45 Mobile: +32 (0)472 69 57 16, Skype: mikemowgli
> > www.cetic.be, rue des Frères Wright, 29/3, B-6041 Charleroi
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
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>


-- 
Paulo Ricardo

-- 
European Master in Distributed Computing***
Royal Institute of Technology - KTH
*
*Instituto Superior Técnico - IST*
*http://paulormg.com*
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Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Brebner, Gavin]

Price ! Why provide expensive redundant storage when cheap disks
will do just as well ?

Gavin

> -Original Message-
> From: openstack-bounces+gavin.brebner=hp@lists.launchpad.net
> [mailto:openstack-bounces+gavin.brebner=hp@lists.launchpad.net]
> On Behalf Of Michaël Van de Borne
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 2:33 PM
> To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> on the very useful www.referencearchitecture.org website, and in every
> piece of documentation on Swift, I never found anything like a NAS
> attached to a storage node. It was all about DAS solution.
> Is there a specific reason why a NAS wouldn't be a good choice to build a
> swift infrastructure?
> 
> thank you
> 
> 
> --
> Michaël Van de Borne
> R&D Engineer, SOA team, CETIC
> Phone: +32 (0)71 49 07 45 Mobile: +32 (0)472 69 57 16, Skype: mikemowgli
> www.cetic.be, rue des Frères Wright, 29/3, B-6041 Charleroi
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Frederik Van Hecke]

Hey Michael,

*Is there a specific reason why a NAS wouldn't be a good choice to build a
> swift infrastructure?*


Why would that make sense to you?

The idea of Swift is to distribute the files over a large amount of
"inexpensive" servers and prevent data loss by keeping multiple copies.
Whereas in a NAS you typically have fat servers with lots of disks with a
RAID on top of them to take care of the data loss.

Using NAS underneath Swift would therefore in my opinion make no sense at
all. On the other hand, using Swift as a building block for a NAS system
would. (although that would require a file system, since Swift is purely
object based).



Kind regards,
Frederik Van Hecke

*T:*  +32487733713
*E:*  frede...@cluttr.be
*W:* www.cluttr.be



*This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain information which
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On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 14:32, Michaël Van de Borne <
michael.vandebo...@cetic.be> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> on the very useful www.referencearchitecture.org website, and in every
> piece of documentation on Swift, I never found anything like a NAS attached
> to a storage node. It was all about DAS solution.
> Is there a specific reason why a NAS wouldn't be a good choice to build a
> swift infrastructure?
>
> thank you
>
>
> --
> Michaël Van de Borne
> R&D Engineer, SOA team, CETIC
> Phone: +32 (0)71 49 07 45 Mobile: +32 (0)472 69 57 16, Skype: mikemowgli
> www.cetic.be, rue des Frères Wright, 29/3, B-6041 Charleroi
>
>
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Re: [Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[John Dickinson]

Generally, you would introduce latency in the storage system by using a NAS 
attached to a storage drive. Also, at scale, your costs will be dominated by 
drive, so you will want to optimize the storage nodes for dense, cheap storage.

--John


On Mar 16, 2012, at 8:32 AM, Michaël Van de Borne wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> on the very useful www.referencearchitecture.org website, and in every piece 
> of documentation on Swift, I never found anything like a NAS attached to a 
> storage node. It was all about DAS solution.
> Is there a specific reason why a NAS wouldn't be a good choice to build a 
> swift infrastructure?
> 
> thank you
> 
> 
> -- 
> Michaël Van de Borne
> R&D Engineer, SOA team, CETIC
> Phone: +32 (0)71 49 07 45 Mobile: +32 (0)472 69 57 16, Skype: mikemowgli
> www.cetic.be, rue des Frères Wright, 29/3, B-6041 Charleroi
> 
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
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[Openstack] Swift: NAS or DAS?

[Michaël Van de Borne]

Hi all,

on the very useful www.referencearchitecture.org website, and in every 
piece of documentation on Swift, I never found anything like a NAS 
attached to a storage node. It was all about DAS solution.
Is there a specific reason why a NAS wouldn't be a good choice to build 
a swift infrastructure?


thank you


--
Michaël Van de Borne
R&D Engineer, SOA team, CETIC
Phone: +32 (0)71 49 07 45 Mobile: +32 (0)472 69 57 16, Skype: mikemowgli
www.cetic.be, rue des Frères Wright, 29/3, B-6041 Charleroi


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