Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] Online video meet up this week (topic:review)

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2017-07-12 21:28:28 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
> First, please don't worry about that replacing issue, because we
> never want to replace IRC meeting in anyway. And to make this
> clear, this is not even a experiment to do so.
[...]

Great, that's a relief.

> And thanks for correct my semantics issue, I already send another
> ML out for clearfy that. Will choose my word carefully. We
> definitely don't want and misstaken of the reason why we host the
> meetup here, so thank you for that.
[...]

Yes, I saw the updated invite information and it was much clearer as
to the intent. Thanks for clarifying!

> The sad, OpenStack already start to adopt something here (I'm
> actually agree with you and we should kill
> https://openstack.webex.com)

My understanding is that it exists primarily to host the OpenStack
Foundation Board of Directors meetings and as a bridge for
coordinating similar sorts of discussions between representatives of
member companies, but all that is outside the jurisdiction of our
technical community and is targeting a different audience with
sometimes significantly different priorities from ours. It's a
resource for the OpenStack Foundation in its day-to-day operations
as a nonprofit trade organization, and their needs and goals aren't
always the same as those of the community of contributors to the
OpenStack project itself.

I'm not thrilled by it either, but I've come to accept that the
users of that service are hamstrung by a dependence on specific
technologies due to frequent interaction with other demographics who
don't necessarily share our community ideals.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] Online video meet up this week (topic:review)

[Rico Lin]

>
>
> This seems like a game of semantics. In your earlier message (quoted
> above) you said, "we will make our meeting this week as an online
> video meeting," and you've scheduled it for the exact same time as
> your normal IRC meeting. I'm not sure how anyone can come to a
> different conclusion than that you're (at least experimenting with)
> replacing your weekly IRC meetings with teleconferencing.
>

First, please don't worry about that replacing issue, because we never want
to replace
IRC meeting in anyway. And to make this clear, this is not even a
experiment to do so.
The hole point of have this meetup is to help all team member got chances
to join future
face to face discussion and hopefully become a virtual+face-to-face
discussion (I only mean PTG here).
Just like what I said in the ML above "The reason for doing this is because
we're a global team
 which almost impossible for all of us to literally sit in the same room in
PTG/anywhere"

To deal that we got more then half cores missing in last PTG only because
they can't make it?
That the issue we have to solve here.
And thanks for correct my semantics issue, I already send another ML out
for clearfy that.
Will choose my word carefully. We definitely don't want and misstaken of
the reason why we host
the meetup here, so thank you for that.

As for why doing meetup this time, instead of meeting, because we don't
need anything other than to
review BPs and Goals. And would hope to make more patches landing before
freeze.

>
> The point wasn't whether there are open alternatives, just that
> you're expressly choosing convenience over software freedom. I get
> that different people place different priorities on this: for some
> free software is nice to have as long as it doesn't get in their
> way, while for others it's a mandate even if it means not getting to
> use some shiny new feature. The decision doesn't directly impact me
> as I only ever at most lurk in the Heat meeting in case anyone
> requests my input and maybe occasionally read the minutes/log, but
> as an example set by a long-standing team within the community it's
> certainly disappointing.
>
Thanks for share that concern out, I will raise this issue to team(maybe in
meeting next week).
The sad, OpenStack already start to adopt something here(I'm actually agree
with you and we should kill https://openstack.webex.com)
Again this is for one meetup and will seek on any feedback, so feedback
taken.
Thank you for fighting for this.
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Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] Online video meet up this week (topic:review)

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2017-07-12 10:24:00 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
> 2017-07-12 2:10 GMT+08:00 Jeremy Stanley :
> >
> > On 2017-07-12 01:47:02 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
> > [...]
> > > we will make our meeting this week as an online video meeting
> > [...]
> >
> > Friendly reminder: "If the project has meetings [...] they should be
> > public and in IRC. They should all be logged and published"
> > https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html
> 
> I would rather call this video meet as `meet up` as in title said,
> since we will not discuss any other thing but just review and
> share thought about each patch. (Which I will definitely share the
> information On IRC and WIKI for sure)

This seems like a game of semantics. In your earlier message (quoted
above) you said, "we will make our meeting this week as an online
video meeting," and you've scheduled it for the exact same time as
your normal IRC meeting. I'm not sure how anyone can come to a
different conclusion than that you're (at least experimenting with)
replacing your weekly IRC meetings with teleconferencing.

> > Also, while Zoom's service and client software may be "free" in the
> > gratis sense, they are not free in the libre sense. Moving your
> > meetings to a proprietary system (whether it charges money for you
> > to be able to use it or not) isn't in the spirit of an open
> > community and necessarily excludes participation by people who value
> > software freedom.
> 
> That's a great stand of point that we all agree on (or otherwise
> why we're here:)), but through the team meeting, we can't think
> out for a video channel that's happened to be a pure open source
> one (and stable to use). And of course, if people can help to
> provide such an environment for us to try on, then I'm happy to
> give it a test :)

The point wasn't whether there are open alternatives, just that
you're expressly choosing convenience over software freedom. I get
that different people place different priorities on this: for some
free software is nice to have as long as it doesn't get in their
way, while for others it's a mandate even if it means not getting to
use some shiny new feature. The decision doesn't directly impact me
as I only ever at most lurk in the Heat meeting in case anyone
requests my input and maybe occasionally read the minutes/log, but
as an example set by a long-standing team within the community it's
certainly disappointing.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] Online video meet up this week (topic:review)

[Rico Lin]

2017-07-12 2:10 GMT+08:00 Jeremy Stanley :
>
> On 2017-07-12 01:47:02 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
> [...]
> > we will make our meeting this week as an online video meeting
> [...]
>
> Friendly reminder: "If the project has meetings [...] they should be
> public and in IRC. They should all be logged and published"
>
https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html
I would rather call this video meet as `meet up` as in title said,
since we will not discuss any other thing but just review and share
thought about each patch.
(Which I will definitely share the information On IRC and WIKI for sure)
>
> Also, while Zoom's service and client software may be "free" in the
> gratis sense, they are not free in the libre sense. Moving your
> meetings to a proprietary system (whether it charges money for you
> to be able to use it or not) isn't in the spirit of an open
> community and necessarily excludes participation by people who value
> software freedom.
That's a great stand of point that we all agree on (or otherwise why we're
here:)),
but through the team meeting, we can't think out for a video channel that's
happened
to be a pure open source one (and stable to use). And of course, if people
can help to provide
such an environment for us to try on, then I'm happy to give it a test :)

> --
> Jeremy Stanley
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [heat] Online video meet up this week (topic:review)

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2017-07-12 01:47:02 +0800 (+0800), Rico Lin wrote:
[...]
> we will make our meeting this week as an online video meeting
[...]

Friendly reminder: "If the project has meetings [...] they should be
public and in IRC. They should all be logged and published"
https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html

Also, while Zoom's service and client software may be "free" in the
gratis sense, they are not free in the libre sense. Moving your
meetings to a proprietary system (whether it charges money for you
to be able to use it or not) isn't in the spirit of an open
community and necessarily excludes participation by people who value
software freedom.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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[openstack-dev] [heat] Online video meet up this week (topic:review)

[Rico Lin]

Hi Team

We would like to start doing video online meetup and see if we can all
reach better co-work with that.
The reason for doing this is because we're a global team which almost
impossible for all of us to literally sit in the same room in PTG/anywhere
(it's just not possible to ask all companies to shift all their heat
developers/ops to a single event).
Also, we should not wait till PTG or Summit to deal with all face to face
task (at least not for small tasks).
Anyway, we will make our meeting this week as an online video meeting. And
try to see if that format works for us or not. And if we doing well, we
might also consider making PTG a hybrid mode.

Here are the details:
Topic: Review
Time: Wednesdays at 1500 UTC on 07/12 (1 hr)
Location: zoom.us (I will notify the specific room location in heat's irc
channel right before the meeting)
Agenda:

1. pre meetup discuss
2. We shall go with patches for BPs and Goals first
3. then pick out some worth review patch for review and land as many as we
can.
4. post meetup discuss (include feedback and suggestion time)

Host: Rico Lin
*Pre-requirement: Please register a Zoom account (zoom.us )
which will be the channel that we will use for this meetup*

With that free account, you should be able to join the meeting. Just
remember to install zoom on your device. And don't worry it's easy to join
and operate.

Do hope more people(core or not) to join this meeting, which might also be
a good chance to get a more clear view of what heat's new feature or bug
fix in detail. We need more reviewer together, so see you there!!
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