Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Amrith Kumar]

In keeping with the brevity of the email below, 

YES

Enough others have opined on the why, I have nothing new to add and I am happy 
to just say +1 ...

-amrith

> -Original Message-
> From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:dava...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 9:39 AM
> To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)  d...@lists.openstack.org>
> Subject: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
> 
> Folks,
> 
> See $TITLE :)
> 
> Thanks,
> Dims
> 
> --
> Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims
> 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Davanum Srinivas]

+1 to "my preference is to just start with the -dev channel"

Thanks,
Dims

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 4:23 AM, John Garbutt  wrote:
> On 16 May 2017 at 16:08, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
>> Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2017-05-16 10:49:54 -0400:
>>> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>> > Folks,
>>> >
>>> > See $TITLE :)
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Dims
>>>
>>> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev.
>>> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like
>>> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to
>>> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead
>>> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we
>>> can get a broader conversation around the item in question.
>>>
>>> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely
>>> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people
>>> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up
>>> on things.
>>>
>>> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are
>>> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize
>>> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until
>>> that's actually a problem.
>>>
>>> -Sean
>>
>> +1, let's start with just the -dev channel and see if volume becomes
>> an issue.
>
> +1 my preference is to just start with the -dev channel, and see how we go.
>
> +1 all the comments about the history and the discussion needing to be
> summarised via ML/gerrit anyway. We can link to the logs of the -dev
> channel for the "raw" discussion.
>
> Thanks,
> johnthetubaguy
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[John Garbutt]

On 16 May 2017 at 16:08, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
> Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2017-05-16 10:49:54 -0400:
>> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> > See $TITLE :)
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Dims
>>
>> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev.
>> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like
>> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to
>> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead
>> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we
>> can get a broader conversation around the item in question.
>>
>> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely
>> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people
>> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up
>> on things.
>>
>> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are
>> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize
>> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until
>> that's actually a problem.
>>
>> -Sean
>
> +1, let's start with just the -dev channel and see if volume becomes
> an issue.

+1 my preference is to just start with the -dev channel, and see how we go.

+1 all the comments about the history and the discussion needing to be
summarised via ML/gerrit anyway. We can link to the logs of the -dev
channel for the "raw" discussion.

Thanks,
johnthetubaguy

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Ed Leafe]

On May 16, 2017, at 3:06 PM, Jeremy Stanley  wrote:
> 
>> It's pretty clear now some see drawbacks in reusing #openstack-dev, and
>> so far the only benefit expressed (beyond not having to post the config
>> change to make it happen) is that "everybody is already there". By that
>> rule, we should not create any new channel :)
> 
> That was not the only concern expressed. It also silos us away from
> the community who has elected us to represent them, potentially
> creating another IRC echo chamber.

Unless you somehow restrict access to the channel, it isn't much of a silo. I 
see TC members in many other channels, so it isn't as if there will be no 
interaction between TC members and the community that they serve.

I also think that a channel like #openstack-tc is more discoverable to people 
who might want to interact with the TC, as it follows the same naming 
convention as #openstack-nova, #openstack-ironic, etc.

-- Ed Leafe







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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Sean McGinnis]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:13:05PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Sean Dague wrote:
> > On 05/16/2017 03:59 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> >> Thierry Carrez wrote:
> >>> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level
> >>> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community
> >>> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to
> >>> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have
> >>> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a
> >>> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level
> >>> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they
> >>> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid.
> >>
> >> To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel
> >> as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion
> >> into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable.
> > 
> > Maybe we have different ideas of what we expect to be the kinds of
> > discussions and asks. What do you think would be in #openstack-tc that
> > would not be appropriate for #openstack-dev, and why?
> 
> It's the other way around. There are (hopefully more and more)
> discussions in #openstack-dev that are noise for anyone watching this
> channel in "TC-office-hours mode" (like a TC member who needs to pay
> attention to what is being said on that channel).
> 
> I prioritize channels based on the attention I need to pay to them. The
> channel used for TC questions / office hours would be at the top of my
> list, so I would rather avoid all the noise we can :)

Same for me. If there is a dedicated -tc channel, then when I see
activity in the channel I would know I need to pay attention.

If it is in -dev, I fear there would be frequent distractions jumping
between channels to see if the activity is relevant to me or not.

> 
> Looking at recent logs from #openstack-dev, I can see it would be a bit
> painful to sort out what is actionable TC stuff from what is long
> general development discussions and random are-you-around pings.
> 
> -- 
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2017-05-16 23:13:05 +0200 (+0200), Thierry Carrez wrote:
[...]
> Looking at recent logs from #openstack-dev, I can see it would be a bit
> painful to sort out what is actionable TC stuff from what is long
> general development discussions and random are-you-around pings.

I'm likely misunderstanding the specifics of what you expect to see
discussed in this case. It seems to me like exactly the same sort of
cross-project/inter-project communication I would expect to come up
in informal IRC discussions where the participants might want to
also get input from a handful of TC members. I would only be likely
to prioritize the channel during scheduled TC member office hours
and then treat it as potential mid-priority background where I'm
mostly monitoring for nick/keyword highlights the rest of the time.

Anything important should still surface in an ML thread afterward,
and eventually in Gerrit if the action to be taken involves a
motion/resolution or reference change.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Thierry Carrez]

Sean Dague wrote:
> On 05/16/2017 03:59 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> Thierry Carrez wrote:
>>> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level
>>> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community
>>> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to
>>> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have
>>> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a
>>> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level
>>> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they
>>> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid.
>>
>> To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel
>> as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion
>> into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable.
> 
> Maybe we have different ideas of what we expect to be the kinds of
> discussions and asks. What do you think would be in #openstack-tc that
> would not be appropriate for #openstack-dev, and why?

It's the other way around. There are (hopefully more and more)
discussions in #openstack-dev that are noise for anyone watching this
channel in "TC-office-hours mode" (like a TC member who needs to pay
attention to what is being said on that channel).

I prioritize channels based on the attention I need to pay to them. The
channel used for TC questions / office hours would be at the top of my
list, so I would rather avoid all the noise we can :)

Looking at recent logs from #openstack-dev, I can see it would be a bit
painful to sort out what is actionable TC stuff from what is long
general development discussions and random are-you-around pings.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Sean Dague]

On 05/16/2017 03:59 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Thierry Carrez wrote:
>> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level
>> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community
>> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to
>> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have
>> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a
>> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level
>> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they
>> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid.
> 
> To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel
> as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion
> into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable.

Maybe we have different ideas of what we expect to be the kinds of
discussions and asks. What do you think would be in #openstack-tc that
would not be appropriate for #openstack-dev, and why?

-Sean

-- 
Sean Dague
http://dague.net

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2017-05-16 21:53:43 +0200 (+0200), Thierry Carrez wrote:
[...]
> I wouldn't say it's premature optimization, we create channels all the
> time. #openstack-dev is a general discussion channel, which is used for
> anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. If you look at recent logs,
> you'll see that it is used for general community pings, but also lengthy
> inter-project discussions.

Those sound entirely on-topic for #openstack-dev to me. Like others
on this thread I also worry that a TC-specific channel will seem
"exclusive" when really we're just members of the community having
discussions with other members of the community (elected or not).

> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level
> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community
> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to
> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have
> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a
> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level
> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they
> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid.

If we go with office hours as proposed I for one would pay close
attention to whatever's said on #openstack-dev during those
scheduled timeframes, highlighted or not. Having a common highlight
is merely a possible means of getting the attention of specific
people in a channel without them needing to pay close attention to
everything said in that channel.

> It's pretty clear now some see drawbacks in reusing #openstack-dev, and
> so far the only benefit expressed (beyond not having to post the config
> change to make it happen) is that "everybody is already there". By that
> rule, we should not create any new channel :)

That was not the only concern expressed. It also silos us away from
the community who has elected us to represent them, potentially
creating another IRC echo chamber.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Thierry Carrez]

Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level
> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community
> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to
> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have
> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a
> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level
> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they
> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid.

To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel
as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion
into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)



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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Thierry Carrez]

Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> On 2017-05-16 09:38:34 -0400 (-0400), Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> See $TITLE :)
> 
> Trying not to rehash other points, I'm in favor of using
> #openstack-dev for now until we see it's not working out. Creating a
> new channel for this purpose before we've even undertaken the
> experiment seems like a social form of premature optimization.

I wouldn't say it's premature optimization, we create channels all the
time. #openstack-dev is a general discussion channel, which is used for
anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. If you look at recent logs,
you'll see that it is used for general community pings, but also lengthy
inter-project discussions.

Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level
of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community
discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to
pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have
trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a
specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level
of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they
*really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid.

It's pretty clear now some see drawbacks in reusing #openstack-dev, and
so far the only benefit expressed (beyond not having to post the config
change to make it happen) is that "everybody is already there". By that
rule, we should not create any new channel :)

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)



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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Dean Troyer]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Jeremy Stanley  wrote:
> rooters these days). Something like "tc-members" can be used to
> address a question specifically to those on the TC who happen to be
> around and paying attention and also gives people looking at the
> logs a useful string to grep/search/whatever. I've gone ahead and
> configured my client to highlight on that now.

Awesome idea... this may also be as close to an in-band tag (ML
subject-like tag) as we're going to get short of #topic in IRC. (/me
avoids discussion of the effectiveness of such a feature).

dt

P.S. I used 'tc-member' to catch both singular and plural forms.

-- 

Dean Troyer
dtro...@gmail.com

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Dean Troyer]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Sean McGinnis  wrote:
> If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
> talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
> through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
> discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
> easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
> of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
> lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.

Right now the filtering aspect is swaying me to a dedicated channel.
There is really no way to extract topics out of IRC logs, and for many
discussions we do not need to be able to do that.  Here we are talking
about the background information for decisions that will be summarized
and recorded elsewhere.

I would really like to not add a new channel and do like the increased
traffic in -dev as of the last few months, but right now I think -tc
may be warranted.

dt

-- 

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dtro...@gmail.com

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Jeremy Stanley]

On 2017-05-16 09:38:34 -0400 (-0400), Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> See $TITLE :)

Trying not to rehash other points, I'm in favor of using
#openstack-dev for now until we see it's not working out. Creating a
new channel for this purpose before we've even undertaken the
experiment seems like a social form of premature optimization.

If the concern is that it's hard to get the attention of (I hate to
say "ping" since contextlessly highlighting people in channel to
find out whether they're around is especially annoying to me at
least) members of the OpenStack Technical Committee, the Infra
team's root sysadmins already solved this issue by all configuring
their clients to highliht on a specific keyword (in that case,
"infra-root" mentioned in channel gets the attention of most of our
rooters these days). Something like "tc-members" can be used to
address a question specifically to those on the TC who happen to be
around and paying attention and also gives people looking at the
logs a useful string to grep/search/whatever. I've gone ahead and
configured my client to highlight on that now.

As for losing context when a discussion transfers from informal
temperature taking, brainstorming and bikeshedding in IRC to a less
synchronous thread on the ML, simply making sure to include a URL to
the point in the channel log where the discussion began ought to be
sufficient (and should be encouraged _regardless_ of which channel
that was).
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Thierry Carrez]

Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Michał Jastrzębski  wrote:
>> On 16 May 2017 at 08:32, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
>>> Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500:
 My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel.

 One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to
 attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on
 what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any
 non TC conversations interlaced.

 If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
 talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
 through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
 discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
 easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
 of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
 lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.
>>>
>>> I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any
>>> significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email
>>> thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our
>>> "decision making" to asynchronous communication tools.

I also prefer we opt for an #openstack-tc channel. A channel is defined
by the topic of its discussions, and #openstack-dev is a catch-all, a
default channel. Reusing it for topical discussions will force everyone
to filter through random discussions in order to get to the
really-TC-related ones. Yes, it's not used much. But that isn't a good
reason to recycle it.

>> To both this and Dims's concerns, I actually think we need some place
>> to just come and ask "guys, is this fine?". If answer would be "let's
>> talk on ML because it's important", that's cool, but on the other hand
>> sometimes simple "yes" would suffice. Not all conversations with TC
>> requires mailing thread, but I'd love to have some "semi-official" TC
>> space where I can drop question, quickly discuss cross-project issues
>> and such.
> 
> Michal,
> 
> Let's try using the ping list on #openstack-dev channel:
> cdent dhellmann dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 fungi johnthetubaguy
> mordred sdague smcginnis stevemar ttx
> 
> The IRC nicks are here:
> https://governance.openstack.org/tc/#current-members

If you need a ping list to reuse the default channel as a TC "office
hours" channel, that kind of proves that a dedicated channel would be
more appropriate :)

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Anita Kuno]

On 2017-05-16 11:46 AM, Sean Dague wrote:

On 05/16/2017 11:17 AM, Sean McGinnis wrote:

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

Folks,

See $TITLE :)

Thanks,
Dims


My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel.

One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to
attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on
what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any
non TC conversations interlaced.

If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.

The thing is, IRC should never be a summary or long term storage medium.
IRC is a discussion medium. It is a hallway track. It's where ideas
bounce around lots are left on the floor, there are lots of
misstatements as people explore things. It's not store and forward
messaging, it's realtime chat.

If we want digestible summaries with context, that's never IRC, and we
shouldn't expect people to look to IRC for that. It's source material at
best. I'm not sure of any IRC conversation that's ever been clean, easy
to read, and captures the entire context within it without jumping to
assumptions of shared background that the conversation participants
already have.

Summaries with context need to emerge from here for people to be able to
follow along (out to email or web), and work their way back into the
conversations.

-Sean


I'll disagree on this point.

I do agree IRC is a discussion medium. I further agree that any 
agreements decided upon need to be further disseminated via other media. 
However, I disagree the only value for those trying to catch up with 
items that took place in the past lies in a digestible summary. The 
conversation of how that agreement was arrived at holds great value.


Feel free to disregard what I have to say, because I'm not really 
involved right now. But I would like to feel that should occasion arise 
I could step back in, do my homework reading past conversations and have 
a reasonable understanding of the current state of things.


For me OpenStack is about people, foibles and mistakes included. I think 
there is a huge value in seeing how a conversation develops and how an 
agreement came into being, sometimes this is far more valuable to me 
than the agreement itself. Agreements and policies are constantly 
changing, but the process of discussion and how we reach this agreement 
is often more important both to me and as a demonstration to others of 
how to interact effectively than the final agreement, which will likely 
change next release or two.


If you are going to do away with tc meetings and I can't find the 
backstory in an IRC tc meeting log then at least let me find the 
backstory in a channel somewhere.


I am in favour of using #openstack-dev for this purpose. I appreciate 
Sean McGuinnis' point about have the conversation focused, I don't think 
you would get that even if you had a dedicated #openstack-tc channel. 
Either channel would include side conversations and unrelated chat, I 
don't see anyway for that not to happen. So for me I would go with using 
what we already have, also including Sean and Doug's previous points 
that we already are fractured enough, it sure would be nice to see some 
good use of already existing public spaces.


Thank you,
Anita.

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Davanum Srinivas]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Michał Jastrzębski  wrote:
> On 16 May 2017 at 08:32, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
>> Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500:
>>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>> > Folks,
>>> >
>>> > See $TITLE :)
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Dims
>>> >
>>>
>>> My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel.
>>>
>>> One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to
>>> attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on
>>> what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any
>>> non TC conversations interlaced.
>>>
>>> If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
>>> talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
>>> through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
>>> discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
>>> easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
>>> of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
>>> lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>
>> I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any
>> significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email
>> thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our
>> "decision making" to asynchronous communication tools.
>
> To both this and Dims's concerns, I actually think we need some place
> to just come and ask "guys, is this fine?". If answer would be "let's
> talk on ML because it's important", that's cool, but on the other hand
> sometimes simple "yes" would suffice. Not all conversations with TC
> requires mailing thread, but I'd love to have some "semi-official" TC
> space where I can drop question, quickly discuss cross-project issues
> and such.

Michal,

Let's try using the ping list on #openstack-dev channel:
cdent dhellmann dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 fungi johnthetubaguy
mordred sdague smcginnis stevemar ttx

The IRC nicks are here:
https://governance.openstack.org/tc/#current-members

Looks like the foundation page needs refreshing, will ping folks about it.
https://www.openstack.org/foundation/tech-committee/

Thanks,
Dims

>> Doug
>>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Michał Jastrzębski]

On 16 May 2017 at 08:32, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
> Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500:
>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> > See $TITLE :)
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Dims
>> >
>>
>> My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel.
>>
>> One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to
>> attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on
>> what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any
>> non TC conversations interlaced.
>>
>> If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
>> talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
>> through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
>> discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
>> easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
>> of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
>> lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.
>>
>> Sean
>>
>
> I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any
> significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email
> thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our
> "decision making" to asynchronous communication tools.

To both this and Dims's concerns, I actually think we need some place
to just come and ask "guys, is this fine?". If answer would be "let's
talk on ML because it's important", that's cool, but on the other hand
sometimes simple "yes" would suffice. Not all conversations with TC
requires mailing thread, but I'd love to have some "semi-official" TC
space where I can drop question, quickly discuss cross-project issues
and such.

> Doug
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Sean Dague]

On 05/16/2017 11:17 AM, Sean McGinnis wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> See $TITLE :)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dims
>>
> 
> My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel.
> 
> One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to
> attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on
> what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any
> non TC conversations interlaced.
> 
> If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
> talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
> through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
> discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
> easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
> of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
> lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.

The thing is, IRC should never be a summary or long term storage medium.
IRC is a discussion medium. It is a hallway track. It's where ideas
bounce around lots are left on the floor, there are lots of
misstatements as people explore things. It's not store and forward
messaging, it's realtime chat.

If we want digestible summaries with context, that's never IRC, and we
shouldn't expect people to look to IRC for that. It's source material at
best. I'm not sure of any IRC conversation that's ever been clean, easy
to read, and captures the entire context within it without jumping to
assumptions of shared background that the conversation participants
already have.

Summaries with context need to emerge from here for people to be able to
follow along (out to email or web), and work their way back into the
conversations.

-Sean

-- 
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http://dague.net

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500:
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Folks,
> > 
> > See $TITLE :)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Dims
> > 
> 
> My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel.
> 
> One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to
> attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on
> what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any
> non TC conversations interlaced.
> 
> If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
> talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
> through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
> discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
> easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
> of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
> lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.
> 
> Sean
> 

I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any
significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email
thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our
"decision making" to asynchronous communication tools.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Davanum Srinivas]

Michał,

My fear is that anything said on that channel will come down as "TC
told us to do / not do such-and-such a thing"

-- Dims

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Michał Jastrzębski  wrote:
> On 16 May 2017 at 07:49, Sean Dague  wrote:
>> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> See $TITLE :)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dims
>>
>> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev.
>> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like
>> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to
>> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead
>> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we
>> can get a broader conversation around the item in question.
>>
>> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely
>> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people
>> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up
>> on things.
>>
>> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are
>> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize
>> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until
>> that's actually a problem.
>>
>> -Sean
>
> I, on the flip side, would be all for #openstack-tc. First,
> #openstack-dev is not obvious to look for TC members, #openstack-tc
> would be channel to talk about tc related stuff, which in large
> portion would be something significant and worth coming back to, so
> having this "filtered" field just for cross-community discussions
> would make digging through logs much easier.
>
>> --
>> Sean Dague
>> http://dague.net
>>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Sean McGinnis]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> See $TITLE :)
> 
> Thanks,
> Dims
> 

My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel.

One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to
attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on
what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any
non TC conversations interlaced.

If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross-
talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep
through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC
discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very
easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture
of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the
lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at.

Sean


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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2017-05-16 10:49:54 -0400:
> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Folks,
> > 
> > See $TITLE :)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Dims
> 
> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev.
> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like
> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to
> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead
> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we
> can get a broader conversation around the item in question.
> 
> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely
> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people
> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up
> on things.
> 
> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are
> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize
> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until
> that's actually a problem.
> 
> -Sean
> 

+1, let's start with just the -dev channel and see if volume becomes
an issue.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Michał Jastrzębski]

On 16 May 2017 at 07:49, Sean Dague  wrote:
> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> See $TITLE :)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dims
>
> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev.
> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like
> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to
> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead
> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we
> can get a broader conversation around the item in question.
>
> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely
> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people
> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up
> on things.
>
> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are
> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize
> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until
> that's actually a problem.
>
> -Sean

I, on the flip side, would be all for #openstack-tc. First,
#openstack-dev is not obvious to look for TC members, #openstack-tc
would be channel to talk about tc related stuff, which in large
portion would be something significant and worth coming back to, so
having this "filtered" field just for cross-community discussions
would make digging through logs much easier.

> --
> Sean Dague
> http://dague.net
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Sean Dague]

On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> See $TITLE :)
> 
> Thanks,
> Dims

I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev.
#openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like
#openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to
make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead
of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we
can get a broader conversation around the item in question.

Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely
exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people
need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up
on things.

I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are
being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize
them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until
that's actually a problem.

-Sean

-- 
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http://dague.net

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Flavio Percoco]

On 16/05/17 09:38 -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

Folks,

See $TITLE :)

Thanks,
Dims


Just to give more context to other folks:

This came up when we were discussing how we can move forward with the idea of
replacing the TC meetings. One concern is that by not having meetings, it might
be hard to contact the TC other than sending emails to the ML, which is not
ideal for all cases.

One option is to just use #openstack-dev and the other one is, well, create the
#openstack-tc channel.

I'm ok with whatever option, really. However, using #openstack-dev would help
with the following:

* We're all there and, more importantly, most of the comunity is there already.
 Whenever discussions will happen, they'll be logged and they encourage other
 ppl to join, ask questions, or just lurk.

* #openstack-tc gives the sense of a "special" group, which we're not. Yes,
  we've responsibilities. Yes, we are a team BUT we serve the community and I
  don't want anyone feeling that "#openstack-tc" is just were the "TC" hangs
  out.

* New members in the community are more likely to join #openstack-dev first.

There are some drawbacks, though:

* Whenever there are ad-hoc conversations that need to happen, using
#openstack-dev might end up "locking" the channel until those conversations are
finished. Not explicitly but it'll happen. A dedicated channel would allow for
reducing the noise during these discussions.


Flavio

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[openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel

[Davanum Srinivas]

Folks,

See $TITLE :)

Thanks,
Dims

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