court trial against me - the outcome
Good morning, I've been operating a Tor node (NetWorkXXIII) for quite some years now (although it was down for several months as it was facing repeated DDoS attacks earlier this year). In June the local police informed me about preliminary proceedings against me by asking me (by mail) to visit them. The letter mentioned computer fraud (actually it was Computerbetrug in Tateinheit mit Faelschung beweiserheblicher Daten gemaess Paragrafen 263a, 269, 52 StGB), but since I hadn't done anything I followed the general advice in such situations: You have the right to remain silent. Use it. So I decided not to go to the police - if you haven't done anything and you don't even have a clue what they are talking about, it usually can only get worse. Apart from that, the day they wanted me to come I was not even in town. In early September I received a penalty order (Strafbefehl) - from the court. A judge found me guilty of having ordered a gift voucher (value: 51 EUR) on amazon.de, providing address details of a living person (but not myself obviously), and using a Web.de email address registered specifically for this purpose. I was sentenced to pay a fine of 500 EUR. Because I hadn't ordered the voucher, I appealed (form- und fristgerechter Einspruch) to that penalty order, which led - according to German laws - to an actual trial. This trial was held today. While the penalty order listed four witnesses (the person whose address details had been used, a police officer in a cow town near that person's home hometown, a local police officer, and an employee of amazon.de), the summoning (Ladung) to the actual trial didn't list any witnesses at all. I had been a lay assessor (Schoeffe) for four years in Germany (but in a different part of the country), so I knew that this usually would be a good sign as the judge(s) during the actual trial wouldn't have much more than the defendant's testimony (and of course the records) to rely on. Well, it turned out to be the exact opposite of what I had expected. They had absolutely no doubts that I was at least somehow guilty. I explained in great detail what Tor is and what it is used for, and the judge asked me: Is this illegal? Wow - shouldn't she know?! I replied No, of course not. Otherwise I wouldn't do it. The judge and the public prosecutor realized soon that I probably wasn't the originator of the transaction in question. But instead of realizing the faults of the police and the public prosecutor's department (German laws say that they have to investigate *all* aspects of a crime and not just find someone that seems to be somehow guilty at first sight), they tried to construct a case of aiding and abetting (Beihilfe) - they insisted that I most probably set up my node in order to help people committing crimes. Or at least I accepted that people would commit crimes using my Tor node. I asked What about a postal service that delivers i.e. a bomb or a blackmail letter? Do they help people committing crimes as well? They said that these two things could not be compared as a postal service offers transportation services whereas I offer anonymization services. To make a long story short: The judge as well as the public prosecutor refused to accept that I didn't do anything criminal, that I didn't and still don't want to help anyone committing a crime (at least not more than i.e. put a random telco/ISP/postal service here does), and that they should have investigated the issue further beforehand. They offered me to dismiss the actual court trial according to paragraph 153 StPO which is not the same as an acquittal (no Freispruch) which I eventually accepted. It means, however, that I won't have to pay for the trial. They also repeatedly said that this time I got off with just a slap on the wrist - next time it wouldn't be that cheap. Yeah, and that's it. I am completely disappointed by the way this court trial was held. I don't know if this is how they usually do it here in Southern Germany. When I was a lay assessor, we always treated the defendants with some kind of respect - not only but especially if there was no actual evidence that they had committed a crime. But the public prosecutor as well as the judge both repeatedly showed me their disrespect - because I didn't confess anything, because I was not thankful for their offer, because I still operate this criminal thing they obviously had no clue about. Okay, signing off for now. Bye, KK, T-Zee -- |Mirko Thiesen We're with you all the way, mostly| |[EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.kyb.mpg.de/ | |MPI for Biological Cybernetics| Phone: +49-7071-601-638| |Spemannstr. 38, D-72076 Tuebingen | FAX: +49-7071-601-616| smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
Hi Mirko, that sounds... disastrous. I'm facing the same thing at the moment, a quite similar case - although my lawyer currently tries to fight off an actual case at court, pointing out all the other incidents I suffered of earlier. This stinks. Beihilfe my a**. BTW, I'm currently reading http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,517232,00.html That's stinks too... Good luck for the future. Cheers, Alex. -- I am tired of all this sort of thing called science here... We have spent millions in that sort of thing for the last few years, and it is time it should be stopped. -- Simon Cameron, U.S. Senator, on the Smithsonian Institution, 1901. .
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
Am Mittwoch, 14. November 2007 schrieb Mirko Thiesen: Good morning, node. I asked What about a postal service that delivers i.e. a bomb or a blackmail letter? Do they help people committing crimes as well? They said that these two things could not be compared as a postal service offers transportation services whereas I offer anonymization services. Hm, so I send a letter with a faked sender's address - what's that? How many letters get sent daily, which have been anonymized? I get letters with no sender's address at all - on the envelope. You never really know from where a letter came, even less now with the letter centers in Germany (stamped in a center which covers a wide region). So, I don't know what's different there compared to tor??? They offered me to dismiss the actual court trial according to paragraph 153 StPO which is not the same as an acquittal (no Freispruch) which I eventually accepted. It means, however, that I won't have to pay for the trial. They also repeatedly said that this time I got off with just a slap on the wrist - next time it wouldn't be that cheap. There is currently a very strong attempt in Germany to criminalize the Internet. People try to let it appear as the playground for terrorists etc. The result will be that Politicians have an easy way to pass laws that allow to monitor and control nternet traffic. Maybe things would have ended differently if you had answered the first letter, because the police investigating the case just need to know what the reason is for things to happen. If you don't explain it, it's most unlikely they will know it by themselves. Martin -- Dr. Martin Senftleben, Ph.D. (S.V.U.) http://www.drmartinus.de/ http://www.daskirchenjahr.de/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
Il 14/11/2007 15:22, Mirko Thiesen ha scritto: In June the local police informed me about preliminary proceedings against me by asking me (by mail) to visit them. The letter mentioned computer fraud (actually it was Computerbetrug in Tateinheit mit Faelschung beweiserheblicher Daten gemaess Paragrafen 263a, 269, 52 StGB), There is a similar Invitation Card in Italy, except that they do not mention the crime which is investigated. It is delivered if you may be of interest to the investigation, but you are not formally charged of a crime. The oucome of the talk at the police office is a signed declaration, which the judge in charge of preliminar investigation will use to further or close the case. You have no obligations to respond. but since I hadn't done anything I followed the general advice in such situations: You have the right to remain silent. Use it. So I decided not to go to the police - if you haven't done anything and you don't even have a clue what they are talking about, it usually can only get worse. Apart from that, the day they wanted me to come I was not even in town. I am not a lawyer, but in Italy it would be a good idea to go and explain what Tor is to the police: this signed declaration would be read by judge, who may write your name off even before starting the suit. Remember, this is not legal advice. Jan
RE: court trial against me - the outcome
Hm, so I send a letter with a faked sender's address - what's that? How many letters get sent daily, which have been anonymized? I get letters with no sender's address at all - on the envelope. You never really know from where a letter came, even less now with the letter centers in Germany (stamped in a center which covers a wide region). So, I don't know what's different there compared to tor??? Well, they failed to understand the problem - and the actual crime commited. Saying that I helped a criminal by running a Tor node is like saying Deutsche Telekom helps criminals by providing telephone lines to them. It's like saying that American Airlines and United Airlines helped attacking the World Trade Center - after all *they* provided the aircrafts and thus the weapons which were used in order to attack the WTC. The latter example shows how stupid and braindead this argumentation is. Seriously, the actual crime was ordering something on amazon.de and entering someone else's address details. The crime was not using an anonymization or any kind of proxy at all. If the person who actually placed the order had not used Tor, the police could have possibly tracked them down. But would they have accused the actual criminal's ISP of aiding and abetting then? I don't think so. Frell, of course not! Bye, KK, T-Zee -- |Mirko Thiesen We're with you all the way, mostly| |[EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.kyb.mpg.de/ | |MPI for Biological Cybernetics| Phone: +49-7071-601-638| |Spemannstr. 38, D-72076 Tuebingen | FAX: +49-7071-601-616| smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
Kafka and the Internet . . . perhaps you might turn this into an interactive novella On Nov 14, 2007 9:22 AM, Mirko Thiesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning, I've been operating a Tor node (NetWorkXXIII) for quite some years now (although it was down for several months as it was facing repeated DDoS attacks earlier this year). In June the local police informed me about preliminary proceedings against me by asking me (by mail) to visit them. The letter mentioned computer fraud (actually it was Computerbetrug in Tateinheit mit Faelschung beweiserheblicher Daten gemaess Paragrafen 263a, 269, 52 StGB), but since I hadn't done anything I followed the general advice in such situations: You have the right to remain silent. Use it. So I decided not to go to the police - if you haven't done anything and you don't even have a clue what they are talking about, it usually can only get worse. Apart from that, the day they wanted me to come I was not even in town. In early September I received a penalty order (Strafbefehl) - from the court. A judge found me guilty of having ordered a gift voucher (value: 51 EUR) on amazon.de, providing address details of a living person (but not myself obviously), and using a Web.de email address registered specifically for this purpose. I was sentenced to pay a fine of 500 EUR. Because I hadn't ordered the voucher, I appealed (form- und fristgerechter Einspruch) to that penalty order, which led - according to German laws - to an actual trial. This trial was held today. While the penalty order listed four witnesses (the person whose address details had been used, a police officer in a cow town near that person's home hometown, a local police officer, and an employee of amazon.de), the summoning (Ladung) to the actual trial didn't list any witnesses at all. I had been a lay assessor (Schoeffe) for four years in Germany (but in a different part of the country), so I knew that this usually would be a good sign as the judge(s) during the actual trial wouldn't have much more than the defendant's testimony (and of course the records) to rely on. Well, it turned out to be the exact opposite of what I had expected. They had absolutely no doubts that I was at least somehow guilty. I explained in great detail what Tor is and what it is used for, and the judge asked me: Is this illegal? Wow - shouldn't she know?! I replied No, of course not. Otherwise I wouldn't do it. The judge and the public prosecutor realized soon that I probably wasn't the originator of the transaction in question. But instead of realizing the faults of the police and the public prosecutor's department (German laws say that they have to investigate *all* aspects of a crime and not just find someone that seems to be somehow guilty at first sight), they tried to construct a case of aiding and abetting (Beihilfe) - they insisted that I most probably set up my node in order to help people committing crimes. Or at least I accepted that people would commit crimes using my Tor node. I asked What about a postal service that delivers i.e. a bomb or a blackmail letter? Do they help people committing crimes as well? They said that these two things could not be compared as a postal service offers transportation services whereas I offer anonymization services. To make a long story short: The judge as well as the public prosecutor refused to accept that I didn't do anything criminal, that I didn't and still don't want to help anyone committing a crime (at least not more than i.e. put a random telco/ISP/postal service here does), and that they should have investigated the issue further beforehand. They offered me to dismiss the actual court trial according to paragraph 153 StPO which is not the same as an acquittal (no Freispruch) which I eventually accepted. It means, however, that I won't have to pay for the trial. They also repeatedly said that this time I got off with just a slap on the wrist - next time it wouldn't be that cheap. Yeah, and that's it. I am completely disappointed by the way this court trial was held. I don't know if this is how they usually do it here in Southern Germany. When I was a lay assessor, we always treated the defendants with some kind of respect - not only but especially if there was no actual evidence that they had committed a crime. But the public prosecutor as well as the judge both repeatedly showed me their disrespect - because I didn't confess anything, because I was not thankful for their offer, because I still operate this criminal thing they obviously had no clue about. Okay, signing off for now. Bye, KK, T-Zee -- |Mirko Thiesen We're with you all the way, mostly| |[EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.kyb.mpg.de/ | |MPI for Biological Cybernetics| Phone: +49-7071-601-638| |Spemannstr. 38, D-72076 Tuebingen | FAX: +49-7071-601-616| -- http://scottmacleod.com This
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
Thanks for continuing to fight for tor in Germany. You have all of our support. Is there anything people outside Germany can do to help? An injury to one is an injury to all, Comrade Ringo Kamen On Nov 14, 2007 10:43 AM, Mirko Thiesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hm, so I send a letter with a faked sender's address - what's that? How many letters get sent daily, which have been anonymized? I get letters with no sender's address at all - on the envelope. You never really know from where a letter came, even less now with the letter centers in Germany (stamped in a center which covers a wide region). So, I don't know what's different there compared to tor??? Well, they failed to understand the problem - and the actual crime commited. Saying that I helped a criminal by running a Tor node is like saying Deutsche Telekom helps criminals by providing telephone lines to them. It's like saying that American Airlines and United Airlines helped attacking the World Trade Center - after all *they* provided the aircrafts and thus the weapons which were used in order to attack the WTC. The latter example shows how stupid and braindead this argumentation is. Seriously, the actual crime was ordering something on amazon.de and entering someone else's address details. The crime was not using an anonymization or any kind of proxy at all. If the person who actually placed the order had not used Tor, the police could have possibly tracked them down. But would they have accused the actual criminal's ISP of aiding and abetting then? I don't think so. Frell, of course not! Bye, KK, T-Zee -- |Mirko Thiesen We're with you all the way, mostly| |[EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.kyb.mpg.de/ | |MPI for Biological Cybernetics| Phone: +49-7071-601-638| |Spemannstr. 38, D-72076 Tuebingen | FAX: +49-7071-601-616|
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 03:22:29PM +0100, Mirko Thiesen wrote: In June the local police informed me about preliminary proceedings against me by asking me (by mail) to visit them. (...) but since I hadn't done anything I followed the general advice in such situations: You have the right to remain silent. Use it. In early September I received a penalty order (Strafbefehl) - from the court. A judge found me guilty of (...). I was sentenced to pay a fine of 500 EUR. A judge found you guilty without hearing from you, nor summoning you to a trial? That sounds like a ... dangerous procedure. Well, I suppose you could see it as equivalent to an offer by the public ministry to settle. Maybe. I'm not sure. They offered me to dismiss the actual court trial according to paragraph 153 StPO which is not the same as an acquittal (no Freispruch) which I eventually accepted. My German is not that fresh anymore, but it seems to say that if your guilt is low and they don't find any interest for society at large to prosecute you, they can choose not to prosecute. Is that what that paragraph says? -- Lionel
Re: 20090101 (log data)
On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 11:46:07AM -0500, Hans S. wrote: TOR Admin (gpfTOR1) wrote: I will try it for email (fon, mobile and sms may be nearly like this): For mobile calls and SMS messages, the cell location of the caller/ sender at the beginning of the call must be recorded. Please take a look at: (0) The Treaty (choose #185), english, french The treaty (0) is concerned about what they call mutual assisstance in fighting computer related crime and the usual paedorist stuff. The treaty itself is absolutely horrifying and has effects much further than Germany and Europe, reaching out to the US and elsewhere. Article 20 and 21 are interesting, they might be the reason for our law. They could be understood as recording traffic / content data on demand, not collect / store everything by default and keep it for queries about the past. Wouldn't a law that compels ISPs to start to record data about a particular user when the police asks it (with a court order or otherwise vetted order) fulfil that treaty? -- Lionel
Re: 20090101 (log data)
On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:12:35PM +0100, linux wrote: do you know what is a timestamp in terms of this law? today, 11pm 2: anon server: In my opinion, an anon sever has to log every replacement of a sender ID by his own ID and the time stamp of this replacement. Tor replaces the IP-address, so we have to log a time stamp and the source IP for every connection. (Thats my private opinion.) What they ask for email is stupid. Every one will go to a server which is not in the EU. But still I will keep some email account in the EU and enter this address everywhere where I expect to get spam from. No, alas, no. I think most people will stay with servers and the EU, so your email to/from them will be in the system. Although maybe not in a form that is convenient for the authorities to query (they have to mass-send requests to several ISPs...). Another solution is using your *own* server. That would be kinda funny... Have the police call you to get logs about you. PS: what happens if the logged data is lost by accident? If the Bundeswehr looses data why not me? Because you are criminally liable for it and they don't? More seriously, I suppose that if they actually believe you when you say it is an accident and you show that you took appropriate precautions (off-site backups, ...), then they will not make you (big) problems. There is “lost by accident” and “lost by “accident””. Not entirely the same. -- Lionel
Re: 20090101
Thus spake Smuggler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Olaf Selke wrote: Eugen Leitl wrote: On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:14:34PM +0100, Olaf Selke wrote: nothing will change for German tor operators due to this law. It defines how to store and how to hand over stored data to the authorities. Data not collected at all can't be stored, right?. But this law does not enforce tor operators to collect any data. Oh, really? So ISPs, VoIP and mobile phone providers have nothing to fear, right? right! Wrong. I read the law. My lawyers read the law. It doesnt say: Store the data you have. It says: Store these specific datasets, no matter if you have them or not. The comments in the Regierungsentwurf are very telling. So, I am sorry. Tor nodes will have to log. ISPs will have to log. Everyone doing public telco services will have to log. Actually, out of curiosity do your lawyers believe that upstream/backbone/IX ISPs will also be required to log (and to log the same type of data)? That would seem to be a lot of data.. Not to mention that upstream ISPs will not have customer information for IP addresses. It would seem to me that Tor nodes are much more similar to backbone routers than consumer ISPs. -- Mike Perry Mad Computer Scientist fscked.org evil labs pgpTZL1QyFh0R.pgp Description: PGP signature
Why Are We Waiting for the Cavalry to Ride In? (was Re: court trial against me - the outcome)
On Wednesday 14 November 2007 14:22:29 Mirko Thiesen wrote: I asked What about a postal service that delivers i.e. a bomb or a blackmail letter? Do they help people committing crimes as well? They said that these two things could not be compared as a postal service offers transportation services whereas I offer anonymization services. First of all, well done and keep up the good work. Secondly, your case is proof, if proof were needed, that Tor is still a project without a rock-solid layman's analogy. Every Tor server operator that ends up explaining Tor to a non-technical or even just plain skeptical audience will encounter the same problem until the crack of doom unless we all put our heads together and document one. Here is my stab to get things rolling: Why should Internet usage be anonymous? Because almost everything else in our life (e.g. TV, radio, the postal system, telephony, cash) has a great deal of anonymity built in. Imagine being asked to sign your name at the newsagents every time you buy a newspaper or being asked to fill out and sign a form detailing every radio program you listen to? What would your response be? Well, newspaper websites and internet radio broadcasters take your signature every time you use them. The information that establishes what you have listened to and what you have read on the internet is logged and stored centrally. So unlike the real world, the internet has no privacy built in. You are made to sign for everything. So unless you are proposing that we should sign a docket every time we read a newspaper article, unless you believe that paper money should be abolished because it allows people to purchase goods without creating a permanent record then you must believe that the same right to privacy we enjoy in a world with cash, radio, and television pertains in a world with cash, radio, television plus the internet. Thirdly, Tor operators of the world need to unite. The Tor project is not our daddy. There is no Tor Project cavalry over the hill about to ride in with a coachload of free lawyers. We need to establish a fighting fund for exactly these sorts of cases. This fund needs to be managed by a compaign group in such a way that it doesn't undermine the anonymity of the network we all help provide. I believe informal ad-hoc donations won't cut it. There needs to be an organized body that can accumulate wisdom, develop public credibility and even distribute funds to cover basic legal costs or more. This could be organized along the following lines: * The organization would be on a subscription basis. X euro/dollars a year. * The organization would accept donations of all sorts. * The organization would be registered as a campaign group/NGO (or whatever is appropriate) in as many countries as possible. This will require a country representative in as many countries as possible. * Every subscribed member will be entitled to whatever the organization can afford within some reasonable minimum/maximum of protection. * Maybe the organization could negotiate and take out some sort of legal insurance on behalf of it's members? What sort of insurance would be appropriate? Is there such a thing? I don't think any of the above is pie-in-the-sky. Tor server operators aren't anonymous. They already communicate/collaborate with each other regularly on IRC and this mailing list. When a tor operator is 'hassled by the feds' they deserve a lot more than tea and sympathy on or-talk. They deserve the resources of an organized association that has funds, expertise and a bit of a clout to ride in and back them up. Maybe we can wait for George Soros to read about Tor for that to happen, or maybe we can get organized and start defending something we clearly all believe in. There are all-sorts operating tor servers on this list. Who can tell us what concrete steps we need to take to set up a Tor Operator NGO? What's the best way of incorporating/associating ourselves? What sort of insurance could such an organization arrange? How could we do all this without turning the network into some kind of cadre? Yours from the moral high ground, ;) Robert signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: 20090101
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mike Perry wrote: Thus spake Smuggler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Olaf Selke wrote: Eugen Leitl wrote: On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:14:34PM +0100, Olaf Selke wrote: nothing will change for German tor operators due to this law. It defines how to store and how to hand over stored data to the authorities. Data not collected at all can't be stored, right?. But this law does not enforce tor operators to collect any data. Oh, really? So ISPs, VoIP and mobile phone providers have nothing to fear, right? right! Wrong. I read the law. My lawyers read the law. It doesnt say: Store the data you have. It says: Store these specific datasets, no matter if you have them or not. The comments in the Regierungsentwurf are very telling. So, I am sorry. Tor nodes will have to log. ISPs will have to log. Everyone doing public telco services will have to log. Actually, out of curiosity do your lawyers believe that upstream/backbone/IX ISPs will also be required to log (and to log the same type of data)? That would seem to be a lot of data.. Not to mention that upstream ISPs will not have customer information for IP addresses. It would seem to me that Tor nodes are much more similar to backbone routers than consumer ISPs. No, upstreams/backbones etc dont have to log. Only parties generating traffic data in the first place (dialup) and parties changing traffic data (Tor) have to store. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHO1PnOMmnRrmEoQkRArkKAJ9/oOvPxQVX1yca7Okc7Z77DzbPqwCgmYsH LgeqiBGPgpNAGLr+Dg3xf9k= =F9Wc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: 20090101
Thus spake Smuggler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Olaf Selke wrote: Eugen Leitl wrote: On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:14:34PM +0100, Olaf Selke wrote: nothing will change for German tor operators due to this law. It defines how to store and how to hand over stored data to the authorities. Data not collected at all can't be stored, right?. But this law does not enforce tor operators to collect any data. Oh, really? So ISPs, VoIP and mobile phone providers have nothing to fear, right? right! Wrong. I read the law. My lawyers read the law. It doesnt say: Store the data you have. It says: Store these specific datasets, no matter if you have them or not. The comments in the Regierungsentwurf are very telling. So, I am sorry. Tor nodes will have to log. ISPs will have to log. Everyone doing public telco services will have to log. Oh, and I'm also wondering about redundancy. If I run a Tor node in Germany is it the case that I have to log, AND my ISP has to log, AND their colo provider has to log, AND the upstream ISP has to log, AND the IX has to log all the same data? Is there any division of responsibility? Or will there be like 5-10 copies of the same connection data floating around everywhere? -- Mike Perry Mad Computer Scientist fscked.org evil labs pgp3BKQrUQ75W.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: court trial against me -
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Mirko, 1: by German law a Tor node admin is something like an access provider. You are not responsible for your traffic. If the court have only an IP address and you have a tor status log, they have nothing. 2: Tor is a legal service in Germany (today and yesterday, tomorrow we will see). If you provided only a legal service, it is no way to construct a case of aiding and abetting and you are not a disquieter or something like that. 3: May be, there is a judge, who do not these facts. The law depends not only on one judge. Dont give up. 4: You need help. Try to contact the following organizations: - AK Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention free contact form ;-) at http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/content/view/70/82/lang,de/ ) - German Privacy Foundation e.V i.Gr. (data rentention free contact form at http://www.privacyfoundation.de/index.php?id=36 ) - Humanistische Union e.V. (They have lawyers by training and they are interested in TOR.) - Chaos Computer Club, - Heise Verlag, try to contact the journalist H. Bleich By the way (for other admins), it is not a good solution, to ignore the first letter. Go to the visit and explain, what you have done and what you have not done. Mirko Thiesen schrieb: Good morning, Good evening and sleep well, you are not alone! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iD8DBQFHO1jx/1Tcq7tq+XURArcrAJ0RQS30GzJi5xlZNgU1uc/h9rBtowCff35X sq8lx2BuDH/y5HJj/iC8VEw= =bCH4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: 20090101
On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 11:59:43AM -0800, Mike Perry wrote: Oh, and I'm also wondering about redundancy. If I run a Tor node in Germany is it the case that I have to log, AND my ISP has to log, AND their colo provider has to log, AND the upstream ISP has to log, AND the That would be interesting to know. I think I'll ask my provider (Hetzner) whether they'll have to log, or whether they feel commercial entities they're hosting have to log themselves. IX has to log all the same data? Is there any division of responsibility? Or will there be like 5-10 copies of the same connection data floating around everywhere? There will be definitely a redundancy, imo. Also, Tor server is privy to more information than the ISP which hosts it. The question is, whether the law can be interpreted in such a way (I presume it will be milked for all that it is worth). -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: court trial against me -
Am Mittwoch, den 14.11.2007, 21:22 +0100 schrieb TOR Admin (gpfTOR1): Hi Mirko, 1: by German law a Tor node admin is something like an access provider. You are not responsible for your traffic. If the court have only an IP address and you have a tor status log, they have nothing. I'd point it out differently: Supporting a crime - Beihilfe in German - is not someone can accuse you just because you run Tor. My lawyer clearly states, that in order to be guilty of Beihilfe you need to actively support a certain crime. It's not Beihilfe just because you provide the MEANS of a crime. Of some generic crime. It must be a special incidident. However, I can understand why you accepted the fact. A lawsuit is time- and money-consuming. I'm just in the same situation and I already piled up a couple of hundreds of Euros in lawyer-bills which I have to pay myself. On another note, good news: The court decided that I'm entitled for compensation about the illegal search of my house. However, they forgot to mention the arrest, so it's put back to court at the moment. I don't know what that means so far, since being entitled doesn't mean that I'd get any substantial money to cover my laywer-bills. It only says that I can claim back money which arose from physical damages. And lawyer-bills and mental compensation is not physical... However, Mirko, you should consider getting a lawyer and check if you have the chances for an appeal. You need to be found unguilty. It's important for you and for Tor in general. If you need advice, drop me an email off-list. Good luck! Alexander. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
On Wednesday 14 November 2007 15:22, Mirko Thiesen wrote: Good morning, Guten Abend, I have also received such a letter some time ago but I went to the police and explained. Of course you have to take care what you say and do not say too much. The police tried to frighten me that normally they come to check my flat and this is nothing nice and I should stop TOR. I asked him if he is still well. To check my flat because of a 100€ case where someone claims to have logs with my IP address which are plain text files and can be modified by any idiot is a little too much. He said: well we do it in Bavaria (Bayern) like this. So I asked about Verhältnissmässigkeit der Mittel (like you do not shoot somebody down because he said something wrong against you) but there was no answer. After a while I have received a letter that the case was stopped. This country needs an revolution! Grüsse und Kopf hoch!
Teaching about Tor in Germany
On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 09:22:09PM +0100, TOR Admin (gpfTOR1) wrote: Try to contact the following organizations: - AK Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention free contact form ;-) at http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/content/view/70/82/lang,de/ ) - German Privacy Foundation e.V i.Gr. (data rentention free contact form at http://www.privacyfoundation.de/index.php?id=36 ) - Humanistische Union e.V. (They have lawyers by training and they are interested in TOR.) - Chaos Computer Club, - Heise Verlag, try to contact the journalist H. Bleich Hi folks, I'm going to be in Berlin (and probably Stuttgart) the first week of January, after 24C3. I'd really like to meet with some German law enforcement, judges, lawyers, or other people who are likely to be involved in future Tor cases and could benefit from understanding more about Tor. If you know a person or group who fits this description, please take a moment to introduce them to me. I've had several productive talks with FBI officers around the US and with Norwegian law enforcement, but apart from some helpful people at BSI, I haven't ever talked to the more traditional German law enforcement groups. My goal wouldn't be to advocate for any particular laws or policies (that's up to them, after all), but rather to help give them background so they can make more informed decisions: explain who uses Tor and how it works, and try to answer any questions that come up. Please feel free to forward this to anybody who can help -- I'd rather learn about too many people than too few, since I travel to Germany periodically and I can aim to fit them all in over time.. Thanks! --Roger
Re: Change protocol to be resistant to EU laws
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marco Bonetti wrote: (and I'll use italy in case of something similar will happen here) *COUGH* *COUGH* http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/483670/30/0/threaded *COUGH* and sorry for cross-post, now I've to look for some more informations. - -- Marco Bonetti Slackintosh Linux Project Developer: http://www.slackintosh.org Linux-live for powerpc: http://www.slackintosh.org/pub/rsync/mb/linux-live My webstuff: http://sidbox.homelinux.org My GnuPG key id: 0x86A91047 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHO2I+E3eWALCzdGwRAhH5AJ4zaHoPj8PqYHWQ0EYyOs9BaRrV0gCfbsau 0Xuh/Ly+DHtNI9AyHyKl0HE= =ROgd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: court trial against me -
On Wednesday 14 November 2007 20:22:09 TOR Admin (gpfTOR1) wrote: Hi Mirko, 1: by German law a Tor node admin is something like an access provider. You are not responsible for your traffic. If the court have only an IP address and you have a tor status log, they have nothing. 2: Tor is a legal service in Germany (today and yesterday, tomorrow we will see). If you provided only a legal service, it is no way to construct a case of aiding and abetting and you are not a disquieter or something like that. 3: May be, there is a judge, who do not these facts. The law depends not only on one judge. Dont give up. 4: You need help. Try to contact the following organizations: - AK Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention free contact form ;-) at http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/content/view/70/82/lang,de/ ) - German Privacy Foundation e.V i.Gr. (data rentention free contact form at http://www.privacyfoundation.de/index.php?id=36 ) - Humanistische Union e.V. (They have lawyers by training and they are interested in TOR.) - Chaos Computer Club, - Heise Verlag, try to contact the journalist H. Bleich By the way (for other admins), it is not a good solution, to ignore the first letter. Go to the visit and explain, what you have done and what you have not done. This is all excellent advice, and it is characteristic of the level of solidarity and helpfulness regularly displayed by Tor operators on this list. But it underlines the fact that a Tor operator in need is always: 1. In need of concrete, immediate help. Guaranteed. 2. Completely on their own. The second point can't be emphasized enough. Nothing we say on this list can help with the legal bills or demonstrate physical solidarity in court. Mirko is a tor server operator. There are hundreds of us. But that judge and prosecutor looked around the court and thought to themselves, 'If this Tor is so legit, where's your backup Mirko?' The fact that Mirko waited until the case was done and dusted before reporting in shows us all the problem we have. We *expect* to be cut loose. We are a single-issue, special interest group. Mirko shouldn't have to go begging to a bunch of tangentially-interested organizations looking for a sympathetic ear. He should be able to come to us and we, as a group, should be able to cover some of his legal costs and access to a specialist lawyer. We should have had representation in that court blasting the prosecutor back to conveyancing cases. Simple as that. Unless we can do that as a body, we are all fucked as individuals. Period. If you want to know my suggestion for remedying this situation: http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/Nov-2007/msg00144.html I would give time and money to such an organization. So let's get some sound advice from each other and set one up. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: court trial against me - the outcome
On Wednesday 14 November 2007 20:47:50 you wrote: This country needs an revolution! Maybe! ;) In the meantime, solidarity among Tor operators would go a long way. If that case had been for 100,000 euro you might now find yourself with a date in court. Who would you turn to in such a situation? We need to create a body that we can all turn to, and only we as a group can create it. Would you be willing to contribute time to creating such an organization? Do you have any contacts who could advise on how to establish it? If so, let me know. And apologies in advance for contacting you directly if it is unwelcome. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
News orgs should be interested in running tor nodes
Has anyone ever tried to speak with the guys from SPIEGEL, FAZ, Sueddeutsche and so on that they drive own tor nodes? This would be good PR for tor. If not yet, is there anybody who has contact to news orgs? If the great news orgs in germany would have own tor nodes, they would become more sensitive about what we are fighting for. Thomas Am Mittwoch, 14. November 2007 15:29 schrieb Alexander W. Janssen: BTW, I'm currently reading http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,517232,00.html That's stinks too... pgp4nJmNRzel4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: News orgs should be interested in running tor nodes
Am Mittwoch, den 14.11.2007, 22:48 +0100 schrieb Thomas Hluchnik: Has anyone ever tried to speak with the guys from SPIEGEL, FAZ, Sueddeutsche and so on that they drive own tor nodes? This would be good PR for tor. Hm, not me, althoug I know that some journalist organisations were thinking about running their own Tor-nodes. If not yet, is there anybody who has contact to news orgs? If the great news orgs in germany would have own tor nodes, they would become more sensitive about what we are fighting for. Well... uh... I possibly could do that, although I have quite a lack of spare-time. And we still have the Privacy Foundation in Germany which actually wants to care about that special topic. However, I don't know how far they are and how well organised. But, if there ain't no takers, I might volunteer in doing so. Anyone inclined supporting me? Thomas Alex. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
German Tor Legal Fund
This is to all german Tor-operators about the possibilty to found a german Tor legal fund. In german. Obviously. Hallo Kameraden, so langsam wird es Zeit. Ich hatte selber schon drei Verfahren gegen mich, die mich jetzt schon viele hundert Euro an Anwaltsrechnung kosten. Heute habe ich von jemanden gelesen, den es in einem Verfahren so richtig erwischt hat: Keinen Freispruch, sondern Einstellung nach §153 StPO. Das kann es doch nicht sein. Um es zusammenzufassen: Das Betreiben eines Tor-Nodes in Deutschland ist (noch) nicht illegal. So etwas wie Beihilfe gibt es nicht. Behilfe muss immer eine konkrete, aktive Tat sein, die es bei Tor in dieser eng definerten Form nicht gibt. Eine Menge Leute haben nun schon mit der Strafverfolgung in der einen oder anderen Art zu Tun gehabt. Es gibt in Deutschland noch keine Organisation, die sich um Leute mit geringen finanziellen Mittel kümmert. Wenn es nicht zu einem Verfahren kommt und man nicht freigesprochen wird, gibt es kaum eine Möglichkeite, irgendwie seine Kosten für die Verteidigung wiederzubekommen. Jedoch habe ich im engeren und erweitertem Bekanntenkreis doch schon festgestellt, dass die Bereitschaft, für solche Vorfälle zu spenden, eindeutig vorhanden ist. Warum nicht einen Verein gründen? Spenden annehmen. Anwälte bezahlen. Operator raushauen. So etwas gibt es in Deutschland noch nicht. Aber es wird Zeit, dass wir so etwas bekommen. Wer hat Zeit und das nötige Aussdauervermögen, so etwas durchzuziehen? Wer kennt sich im Vereinsrecht aus? Wer hat sowas schon einmal gemacht? Ich bin dabei. Ich habe so langsam die Faxen dicke. Man wird von vorne bis hinten so richtig durchgenudelt, obwohl man nur seine Bürgerrechte wahrnimmt. Datenvorratsspeicherung hin oder her: So langsam muss Schluss sein. Anfragen und Angebote bitte per Email *verschlüsselt* direkt an mich: [EMAIL PROTECTED], keyid 90DEE171. Bis bald! Mit Ringos Worten: Kamerad Alex. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: German Tor Legal Fund
Am Donnerstag, den 15.11.2007, 00:58 +0100 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Hi! Warum nicht einen Verein gründen? Spenden annehmen. Anwälte bezahlen. Operator raushauen. So etwas gibt es in Deutschland noch nicht. Aber es wird Zeit, dass wir so etwas bekommen. Das verstehe ich jetzt nicht. Sollten genau diese Aufgaben nicht auch durch die German Privacy Foundation e.V i.Gr. http://www.privacyfoundation.de/ wahrgenommen werden bzw. war das nicht ihre ursprüngliche Motivation? Nicht, dass ich wüsste. Soweit ich weiss, will sich die Pricacy Foundation auf Lobbyarbeit beschränken. Das ist zumindestens mein letzter Kenntnisstand. Auf der Webseite steht: In Ausnahmefällen bietet die German Privacy Foundation e.V. auch Rechtsbeistand für private Betreiber von Anonymisierung-Servern. Aber ich bin eher für einen Verein, der sich hauptsächlich darum kümmert. Aber wenn die Privacy Foundation sich dort mehr engagieren will, ist das doch gerne gesehen! Aber so Ad-Hoc sehe ich dort keine finanzielle Hilfe für Tor-Admins. In wie fern man auch Ausnahme definieren mag. Das lässz sich ja bestimmt auch kombinieren. Gruss, Alex. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: German Tor Legal Fund
Am Donnerstag, den 15.11.2007, 01:19 +0100 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [... Privacy Foundation ...] Ich habe gerade eine Anfrage an die Privacy Foundation geschickt und sie gebeten, mir zur erklären, was folgender Passus[1] bedeutet: In Ausnahmefällen bietet die German Privacy Foundation e.V. auch Rechtsbeistand für private Betreiber von Anonymisierung-Servern. Gruss, Alex. [1] http://www.privacyfoundation.de/index.php?id=37 signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: German Tor Legal Fund
I pledge $10 if the fund starts. Please allow mail donations. Hopefully others can also pledge. Comrade Ringo Kamens On Nov 14, 2007 7:41 PM, Alexander W. Janssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Donnerstag, den 15.11.2007, 01:19 +0100 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [... Privacy Foundation ...] Ich habe gerade eine Anfrage an die Privacy Foundation geschickt und sie gebeten, mir zur erklären, was folgender Passus[1] bedeutet: In Ausnahmefällen bietet die German Privacy Foundation e.V. auch Rechtsbeistand für private Betreiber von Anonymisierung-Servern. Gruss, Alex. [1] http://www.privacyfoundation.de/index.php?id=37
Swedish Police Swoop on Dan Egerstad
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Not good. Via TheAge.com.au. [snip] The Swedish hacker who perpetrated the so-called hack of the year has been arrested in a dramatic raid on his apartment, during which he was taken in for questioning and several of his computers confiscated. Dan Egerstad, a security consultant, intercepted data carried over a global communications network used by embassies around the world in August and gained access to 1000 sensitive email accounts. They contained confidential diplomatic memos and other sensitive government emails. After informing the governments involved of their security failings and receiving no response, Egerstad published 100 of the email accounts, including login details and passwords, on his website for anyone curious enough to have a look. The site, derangedsecurity.com, has since been taken offline. The hack required little more than tools freely available on the internet, and Egerstad maintains he broke no laws. In fact, he is confident the email accounts he gained access to were already compromised by other hackers, so his efforts in fact prevented them from continuing their spying. [snip] More: http://www.theage.com.au/news/security/hacker-of-year-arrest/2007/11/15/119 4766821481.html Background: http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/09/10/Security-researcher-intercepts-em bassy-passwords_1.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136630-c,onlinesecurity/article.html http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/08/embassy-e-mail-.html - - ferg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP Desktop 9.6.3 (Build 3017) wj8DBQFHO60aq1pz9mNUZTMRAnqMAKD/OG+oVoFOUfnmAVoXJHxgbNCLGwCfZLeu AqffLgbQ4KvrDWx1RJ0RzLs= =c5MK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(at)netzero.net ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
try to translate the docs into Chinese
Hi, after trial used. I feel tor is really useful for me . It's easy to browse the website that cannot browse before, like Wiki. And I do think it would also be very helpful to many people in China like me. So I want to translate more docs into Chinese and introduce it to my friends. And I know Pei Hanru does a lot in translating to Chinese. So can I contact Pei Hanru . Or is anything I can do to help. Can I just translate the docs and put it in wiki? Thanks.
Re: try to translate the docs into Chinese
It would certainly help if you could translate them and put them in the wiki or contact the tor developers who can put it on the site. Also, if you think he can help, it would help to contact Pei Hanru. Comrade Ringo Kamens On Nov 14, 2007 10:47 PM, yuxuan huang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, after trial used. I feel tor is really useful for me . It's easy to browse the website that cannot browse before, like Wiki. And I do think it would also be very helpful to many people in China like me. So I want to translate more docs into Chinese and introduce it to my friends. And I know Pei Hanru does a lot in translating to Chinese. So can I contact Pei Hanru . Or is anything I can do to help. Can I just translate the docs and put it in wiki? Thanks.
Re: Swedish Police Swoop on Dan Egerstad
On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 08:41:48PM -0800, Christopher Layne wrote: The Swedish hacker who perpetrated the so-called hack of the year has been arrested in a dramatic raid on his apartment, during which he was taken in for questioning and several of his computers confiscated. Amusing of course how said embassies ignore caveat emptor. -cl As Egerstad and I discussed the problem in August, we both came to the conclusion that the embassy employees were likely not using Tor nor even knew what Tor was. Instead, we suspected that the traffic he sniffed belonged to someone who had hacked the accounts and was eavesdropping on them via the Tor network. As the hacked data passed through Egerstad's Tor exit nodes, he was able to read it as well. I take back my comment. I will say this, as much as I will support any technology that aids freedom and goes against eavesdropping - I do find the constant nefarious activity out there today quite annoying. Not tor's responsibility in the least - just a general gripe about the level of crap flowing through the pipes these days. -cl
Re: try to translate the docs into Chinese
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 2007-11-15 11:47 CST, yuxuan huang wrote: Hi, after trial used. I feel tor is really useful for me . It's easy to browse the website that cannot browse before, like Wiki. And I do think it would also be very helpful to many people in China like me. So I want to translate more docs into Chinese and introduce it to my friends. And I know Pei Hanru does a lot in translating to Chinese. So can I contact Pei Hanru . Could you tell us a bit more about which docs are you going to translate (or update)? For website contents, you may send to me directly and I'll commit them to Tor's svn repository. Or is anything I can do to help. Can I just translate the docs and put it in wiki? Thanks. Everyone can edit a wiki, but be sure it's easily accessible by Chinese-saying people, so better it's not dispersed in Tor's official English wiki. Thanks. Hanru -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Cygwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHO9nvtHG285r2MGoRAuy0AKDRD4i/6ppnFkeV4+sIy9okM2UswQCgn+48 WSdEJ8O5IAeZwjKNk2n+jaQ= =7QRU -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: News orgs should be interested in running tor nodes
On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 10:48:33PM +0100, Thomas Hluchnik wrote: Has anyone ever tried to speak with the guys from SPIEGEL, FAZ, Sueddeutsche and so on that they drive own tor nodes? This would be good PR for tor. If not yet, is there anybody who has contact to news orgs? If the great news orgs in germany would have own tor nodes, they would become more sensitive about what we are fighting for. Rather than trying to get them to operate their own hardware, we might make more progress just trying to help them understand the good uses and good users for Tor. We've made some progress with American journalists because by this point quite a few of them know somebody down the hall who's used Tor and found it useful. For example, we heard from a major American news organization that got a knock on the door of their foreign office after they submitted a story about an east Asian country from inside said country. Now that they know about Tor, they don't attract as much attention from the locals when researching their stories or submitting them. The more journalists who recognize the value of safety online, the more they'll be willing to see (and explain) both sides of a story when something comes up. So if you know a journalist, whatever country you're in, take them out for coffee and teach them how anonymity on the Internet can work and how diverse its users are. Offer to be a contact if they ever find themselves needing to know more about anonymity online. Speaking of which, we need to work more on docs that explain the good uses of Tor. There's a start here: https://www.torproject.org/torusers If anybody wants to clean this up and make it look sharper, please do. :) --Roger
