Re: (memes) not making much headway with critiquing elitist dba
Life is full of paradoxes. On 24 Jul 2002 at 10:33, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I cannot understand is why you left the fertilizer industry. Based on your commentary and the state of the economy I suspect demand could not keep up with your supply. Just kidding your posts are quite amusing. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: (memes) not making much headway with critiquing elitist dba
DBO, its not about a smell. On 23 Jul 2002 at 10:28, Mercadante, Thomas F wrote: ... (you lost me at hallo) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: (memes) not making much headway with critiquing elitist dba
EP, What I cannot understand is why you left the fertilizer industry. Based on your commentary and the state of the economy I suspect demand could not keep up with your supply. Just kidding your posts are quite amusing. Eric D. Pierce eric_d_pierce@pa To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cbell.net cc: Sent by:Subject: (memes) not making much headway with critiquing elitist [EMAIL PROTECTED] dba 07/23/2002 01:13 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Robert, I got into computers after being in the fertilizer industry, a segue which has many times seemed quite apt. A year or two ago, I noticed that Oracle Education had a training/certification track for something they called Database Operator (DBO) that was quite similar to what you are talking about. The trainee was to know how to conduct routine, basic tasks under the supervision of a senior dba (on big databases), or would be a SA running a 3rd party type application that ran on top of Oracle where the 3rd party app people would provide dba technical consulting/support, or a SA that was running a small/non-critical database, etc. (the web site education.oracle.com doesn't seem to be working right now, so I can't confirm if they still have a DBO track.) Re: critiquing of the cultish/elitist mentality that predominates in DBA circles? ha haaa haa. The thing is to make crucial distinction between: good elitism: - high level specialization, - expertise required, - capacity of an individual to absorb tecnical complexity/theory and learn to apply it to problem solving, etc. and: bad elitism: - arrogant/selfish attitude, greedy, etc. Presumably the worst case scenario is having a person that exhibits bad elitism with little or no sign of any of the attributes of good elitism. I support your efforts at articulating a more populist scenario for defining technical job positions. You of course realize that any sort of populist argument, libertarian or otherwise, will get caught in the hellish middle of a cultural landscape that is mainly defeined by snobby *ssholes in either the politically correct (liberal) or country club (conservative) camps. Besides retreating to a libertarian position (which I think is an honorable approach, if somewhat stasist), there is also another alternative: embrace a holistic, integrative (transcendant/universal) paradigm that recognises the evolutionary limits (and evils) of both classic liberalism and conservatism. http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/mgm2.html Explanation of color schemes used in Spiral Dynamics type Memetic theory: http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/wilber_sd.html regards, ep On 22 Jul 2002 at 9:23, Robert Monical wrote: ... It seems that the implicit expectation is that every DBA should be or should aspire to be a Master Technical DBA. I have a slightly different take on the situation. It is a little convoluted but I believe that the DBA world needs some additional job classifications. In a decent sized organization, the day to day management functions should be accomplished by an Admin DBA who might be someone who was perfectly happy spending his/her working career operating a precision milling machine at Boeing. Since the machinist jobs are going away, I see no reason why a competent machinist could not become a competent admin DBA. Such a person is not suited by aptitude or disposition to become a Master Technical DBA, but would do a great job at the admin level. I'll extend the analogy a little more: the manufacturing
(memes) not making much headway with critiquing elitist dba
Robert, I got into computers after being in the fertilizer industry, a segue which has many times seemed quite apt. A year or two ago, I noticed that Oracle Education had a training/certification track for something they called Database Operator (DBO) that was quite similar to what you are talking about. The trainee was to know how to conduct routine, basic tasks under the supervision of a senior dba (on big databases), or would be a SA running a 3rd party type application that ran on top of Oracle where the 3rd party app people would provide dba technical consulting/support, or a SA that was running a small/non-critical database, etc. (the web site education.oracle.com doesn't seem to be working right now, so I can't confirm if they still have a DBO track.) Re: critiquing of the cultish/elitist mentality that predominates in DBA circles? ha haaa haa. The thing is to make crucial distinction between: good elitism: - high level specialization, - expertise required, - capacity of an individual to absorb tecnical complexity/theory and learn to apply it to problem solving, etc. and: bad elitism: - arrogant/selfish attitude, greedy, etc. Presumably the worst case scenario is having a person that exhibits bad elitism with little or no sign of any of the attributes of good elitism. I support your efforts at articulating a more populist scenario for defining technical job positions. You of course realize that any sort of populist argument, libertarian or otherwise, will get caught in the hellish middle of a cultural landscape that is mainly defeined by snobby *ssholes in either the politically correct (liberal) or country club (conservative) camps. Besides retreating to a libertarian position (which I think is an honorable approach, if somewhat stasist), there is also another alternative: embrace a holistic, integrative (transcendant/universal) paradigm that recognises the evolutionary limits (and evils) of both classic liberalism and conservatism. http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/mgm2.html Explanation of color schemes used in Spiral Dynamics type Memetic theory: http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/wilber_sd.html regards, ep On 22 Jul 2002 at 9:23, Robert Monical wrote: ... It seems that the implicit expectation is that every DBA should be or should aspire to be a Master Technical DBA. I have a slightly different take on the situation. It is a little convoluted but I believe that the DBA world needs some additional job classifications. In a decent sized organization, the day to day management functions should be accomplished by an Admin DBA who might be someone who was perfectly happy spending his/her working career operating a precision milling machine at Boeing. Since the machinist jobs are going away, I see no reason why a competent machinist could not become a competent admin DBA. Such a person is not suited by aptitude or disposition to become a Master Technical DBA, but would do a great job at the admin level. I'll extend the analogy a little more: the manufacturing organization does not expect the machinist to program the machine. They either have on staff or bring in a numerical control programming specialist. Similarly, the Admin DBA should know which tasks he/she can perform and which tasks should be kicked up or out to the next level. So maybe some of the energy spent on this list about relevance of the OCP and discussing qualifications of DBAs (against an unspecified standard) could be spent defining organizational strategies for getting the best use out of human capital represented by Admin DBAs and pricing the skill set appropriately. The worst possible thing is to get an Admin DBA into a Technical DBA position. I think the key breakthrough is the notion that there is a DBA track that does not inevitably lead to Master Technical DBA. That is why I use the machinist analogy: somebody who is satisfied with a career spending 25 years doing essentially the same thing. If you are into Myers-Briggs type indicator, I think the personality dimension is SJ and roughly 25% of the population fits this profile. I believe that if we think about these things in a way that we ask ourselves how can I maximize the potential of this person in our organization, pay him/her a fair wage for what they can do, and free up my time to address the really gnarly stuff we can help our entire society better transition to the information era and not marginalize a bunch of great people in the process. (Sez the man operating a three person software company). ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: (memes) not making much headway with critiquing elitist dba
Eric, Huh? Tom (you lost me at hallo) -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 1:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Robert, I got into computers after being in the fertilizer industry, a segue which has many times seemed quite apt. A year or two ago, I noticed that Oracle Education had a training/certification track for something they called Database Operator (DBO) that was quite similar to what you are talking about. The trainee was to know how to conduct routine, basic tasks under the supervision of a senior dba (on big databases), or would be a SA running a 3rd party type application that ran on top of Oracle where the 3rd party app people would provide dba technical consulting/support, or a SA that was running a small/non-critical database, etc. (the web site education.oracle.com doesn't seem to be working right now, so I can't confirm if they still have a DBO track.) Re: critiquing of the cultish/elitist mentality that predominates in DBA circles? ha haaa haa. The thing is to make crucial distinction between: good elitism: - high level specialization, - expertise required, - capacity of an individual to absorb tecnical complexity/theory and learn to apply it to problem solving, etc. and: bad elitism: - arrogant/selfish attitude, greedy, etc. Presumably the worst case scenario is having a person that exhibits bad elitism with little or no sign of any of the attributes of good elitism. I support your efforts at articulating a more populist scenario for defining technical job positions. You of course realize that any sort of populist argument, libertarian or otherwise, will get caught in the hellish middle of a cultural landscape that is mainly defeined by snobby *ssholes in either the politically correct (liberal) or country club (conservative) camps. Besides retreating to a libertarian position (which I think is an honorable approach, if somewhat stasist), there is also another alternative: embrace a holistic, integrative (transcendant/universal) paradigm that recognises the evolutionary limits (and evils) of both classic liberalism and conservatism. http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/mgm2.html Explanation of color schemes used in Spiral Dynamics type Memetic theory: http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/wilber_sd.html regards, ep On 22 Jul 2002 at 9:23, Robert Monical wrote: ... It seems that the implicit expectation is that every DBA should be or should aspire to be a Master Technical DBA. I have a slightly different take on the situation. It is a little convoluted but I believe that the DBA world needs some additional job classifications. In a decent sized organization, the day to day management functions should be accomplished by an Admin DBA who might be someone who was perfectly happy spending his/her working career operating a precision milling machine at Boeing. Since the machinist jobs are going away, I see no reason why a competent machinist could not become a competent admin DBA. Such a person is not suited by aptitude or disposition to become a Master Technical DBA, but would do a great job at the admin level. I'll extend the analogy a little more: the manufacturing organization does not expect the machinist to program the machine. They either have on staff or bring in a numerical control programming specialist. Similarly, the Admin DBA should know which tasks he/she can perform and which tasks should be kicked up or out to the next level. So maybe some of the energy spent on this list about relevance of the OCP and discussing qualifications of DBAs (against an unspecified standard) could be spent defining organizational strategies for getting the best use out of human capital represented by Admin DBAs and pricing the skill set appropriately. The worst possible thing is to get an Admin DBA into a Technical DBA position. I think the key breakthrough is the notion that there is a DBA track that does not inevitably lead to Master Technical DBA. That is why I use the machinist analogy: somebody who is satisfied with a career spending 25 years doing essentially the same thing. If you are into Myers-Briggs type indicator, I think the personality dimension is SJ and roughly 25% of the population fits this profile. I believe that if we think about these things in a way that we ask ourselves how can I maximize the potential of this person in our organization, pay him/her a fair wage for what they can do, and free up my time to address the really gnarly stuff we can help our entire society better transition to the information era and not marginalize a bunch of great people in the process. (Sez the man operating a three person software company). ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Eric D. Pierce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051
