Re: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Chris, It sounds like the client feels that the Business Mailer is simply a customer, albeit a customer with special needs, and therefore special fields. In your summary, you wrote: Aside from the average consumer, a Business Mailer(BM) can also file a claim. The BM has a special agreement with the client and gets special treatment when filing claims, and therefore a Business Mailer profile is created. ... which actually sounds also like the BM is simply a customer. So I can hear their point of view. Then again, as you point out, the BM is not actually a customer tied to a claim, like most customers, he's a repeat customer. And that sounds like a whole different logical beast, a different logical entity. So, from here, I find it's hard to tell if the BM is simply another customer or a new beast entirely. This would seem to me to be the crux of the problem. So they want to define their relationship with their client, the BM. My gut then says let 'em. It's possible to accomodate a 'customer type' in a customer table, so think of BM as an extremely limited way to handle customer type. (I know that's not how one would implement customer type, but they've decided they ONLY allow two customer types, I think I can deal with that.) What I don't know is do you feel there are already existing specific functions or reports that their spec won't be able to handle? If there are, then I go back leaning towards your design, otherwise I'd let them define their relationship with the BM. (Now my KIDS' relationship with THEIR bm, that's a whole different story!) My2c fwiw. Good luck in general, and in getting out before their model falls apart in particular, Yosi - Yosi Greenfield Oracle Certified DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yosi Greenfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Chris, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your evaluation of what SHOULD be done (emphasis on purpose). But, you have to deal with the people and politics of the client. As I said before, it sounds like something else is going on in the organization, and someone decided to pull and end-around on you for some reason. I would personally be more concerned about why they felt that they had to do this to "get their way". Check your back, and make some friends (and maybe, learn the art of compromise? :) ) Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 2:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hmmm...when the spec is changed because of some business requirement then that's fine. But when it's changed because your own designers cant argue the design on technical merit then what? A spec should quote all the business rules, and some high level details about the overall architecture of the system. But the spec shouldn't tell you that you will have these two specific tables in the database, with these specific fields, etc. In the end the contractor is ultimately responsible for the validity and performance of the system that they deliver. The contractor will never be able to point back to some disclaimer and say "We told you so". It will be next to impossible to point to the disclaimer when you start slipping the schedule or when the performance is not quite there. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:09 PM To: Grabowy; Chris; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Chris, True, except when I as the customer change the specs. Then what is right is what I say. Or as a Program Management instructor told the class "As it is written, so let it be done." Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Grabowy; Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/24/2001 9:48 AM Exactly. Which is why I am trying to change this now. As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them over the head, BUT they do pay me to do what is right. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against it. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
Re:RE: RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Chris, Would you mind if I called on you the next time we need a consultant? The last 4 we've had were a damn sight below your professional quality. They were behaving just like you don't want to half way through the contract. BTW: Assuming oneway.pdf was yours, that's the one I liked. Go for it!! And although this thread has taken on some of the characteristics of a e-war, I think it's been worth it. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Grabowy; Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/24/2001 1:36 PM Hmmm...when the spec is changed because of some business requirement then that's fine. But when it's changed because your own designers cant argue the design on technical merit then what? A spec should quote all the business rules, and some high level details about the overall architecture of the system. But the spec shouldn't tell you that you will have these two specific tables in the database, with these specific fields, etc. In the end the contractor is ultimately responsible for the validity and performance of the system that they deliver. The contractor will never be able to point back to some disclaimer and say "We told you so". It will be next to impossible to point to the disclaimer when you start slipping the schedule or when the performance is not quite there. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:09 PM To: Grabowy; Chris; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Chris, True, except when I as the customer change the specs. Then what is right is what I say. Or as a Program Management instructor told the class "As it is written, so let it be done." Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Grabowy; Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/24/2001 9:48 AM Exactly. Which is why I am trying to change this now. As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them over the head, BUT they do pay me to do what is right. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against it. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
And Jon that's the biggest reason I really dislike most contractors. I don't care if you are a contractor or not, there is such a thing as work ethics. And those ethics, to me, tell me to stand up to them and let them know that they have a flaw in their plan that will set it back or stop it completely. If more of our contractors in my old job had more of what it takes to be a real professional , then we would not have taken as long as we did to get our jobs done. That said . I have also been a contractor. I understand how hard it is stand up to someone when you are one small pen stroke away from having a contract cancelled because they do not like you. Its a hard decision. I just wish more of our contractors had made the right decision. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 2:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Chris: You have to remember that you are there as a consultant, as a value add to the client's business, not to argue with them. If they choose to do something different than what you recommend, that's their choice. I agree with what others have said: document, document, document. That way if things don't turn out as expected or when project deadlines start to slip because of scope creep, you can go back and point to what decisions and activities brought about these changes. And would you want a project deadline to be missed because you spent a week arguing a point with them ro because you did it the way they asked and it didn't work as they thought it would. I always try to remember as a consultant that, when it gets right down to it, I'm not part of their team--that's not my role. I'm a hired gun in the case of project work or an augmentation to their team. In either case, I am there to add something, not to detract from it. Just my two cents. Jon Walthour >--- Original Message --- >From: "Grabowy, Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 7/24/01 2:40:24 PM > >Hmmm...when the spec is changed because of some business requirement then >that's fine. But when it's changed because your own designers cant argue >the design on technical merit then what? A spec should quote all the >business rules, and some high level details about the overall architecture >of the system. But the spec shouldn't tell you that you will have these two >specific tables in the database, with these specific fields, etc. > >In the end the contractor is ultimately responsible for the validity and >performance of the system that they deliver. The contractor will never be >able to point back to some disclaimer and say "We told you so". It will be >next to impossible to point to the disclaimer when you start slipping the >schedule or when the performance is not quite there. > >-Original Message- >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:09 PM >To: Grabowy; Chris; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > >Chris, > >True, except when I as the customer change the specs. Then what is >right is >what I say. Or as a Program Management instructor told the class "As it is >written, so let it be done." > >Dick Goulet > >Reply Separator >Author: "Grabowy; Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 7/24/2001 9:48 AM > >Exactly. Which is why I am trying to change this now. > >As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them over the head, >BUT they do pay me to do what is right. > >-Original Message- >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:29 PM >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > >Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after >it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against >it. > >-Original Message- >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > >Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. >They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. > >Document to cya > > >> This is one of those cases where I would document your >> concerns and the >> potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, >> also keep a copy >> for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they >> ask. Yeah, I know >> it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? >> >> Dick Goulet >-- >Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com >-- >Author: Page, Bruce > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 >San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > >To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message >to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in >the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L >(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may >also send the HELP c
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Don't get me wrong. I understand that completely. I have spent my whole career as a consultant. There are good things and bad things. I have, in the past, refused to go back to one particular client, but then again so did the whole staff that was done there at one point in time. For the most part I deal with my management when there are issues, let them do what they want and then do what I need to do to get the job done, whether its the way they want it done or my way. I must say though, its the exception rather then the rule, that I actually have issues with the client. I work hard to have my clients trust me and I have always been successful (knock on wood). I truly believe that its all in how you treat them. I do disagree with a comment someone else made about how you are not part of their team. While I am here I am part of their team. I work within their framework and my goals are the same as their goals. The only difference is, I have a whole corporation behind me to help if needed. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 12:06 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L It goes with the territory. > Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to > the ground after > it goes south, no matter how well you document that you > recommended against it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Ok. I didn't mean to start a war about who is right and wrong. The original post is about which model is the best in all respects, speed, efficiency, etc. I did not label which model is mine or which one is theres. I want to move forward with the best model. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 3:06 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Over the past 17 years, I have been on both sides of this fence. Right is defined by the gods that be. I know, because I have fought the fights. I have been the person having to live with the system left by consultants that designed the system "right" and they were backed by my manager against my position. Then I had to explain to the manager later why we could not do certain things. I have also won the fight and lived with the consequences. I have also been the consultant that came in and said this is stupid and it needs to be done this way. I have won and lost those fights too. They pay consultants to make recommendations and then do what they tell you to do. You have the choice to stay and do it or to leave. > As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them > over the head, > BUT they do pay me to do what is right. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Chris: You have to remember that you are there as a consultant, as a value add to the client's business, not to argue with them. If they choose to do something different than what you recommend, that's their choice. I agree with what others have said: document, document, document. That way if things don't turn out as expected or when project deadlines start to slip because of scope creep, you can go back and point to what decisions and activities brought about these changes. And would you want a project deadline to be missed because you spent a week arguing a point with them ro because you did it the way they asked and it didn't work as they thought it would. I always try to remember as a consultant that, when it gets right down to it, I'm not part of their team--that's not my role. I'm a hired gun in the case of project work or an augmentation to their team. In either case, I am there to add something, not to detract from it. Just my two cents. Jon Walthour >--- Original Message --- >From: "Grabowy, Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 7/24/01 2:40:24 PM > >Hmmm...when the spec is changed because of some business requirement then >that's fine. But when it's changed because your own designers cant argue >the design on technical merit then what? A spec should quote all the >business rules, and some high level details about the overall architecture >of the system. But the spec shouldn't tell you that you will have these two >specific tables in the database, with these specific fields, etc. > >In the end the contractor is ultimately responsible for the validity and >performance of the system that they deliver. The contractor will never be >able to point back to some disclaimer and say "We told you so". It will be >next to impossible to point to the disclaimer when you start slipping the >schedule or when the performance is not quite there. > >-Original Message- >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:09 PM >To: Grabowy; Chris; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > >Chris, > >True, except when I as the customer change the specs. Then what is >right is >what I say. Or as a Program Management instructor told the class "As it is >written, so let it be done." > >Dick Goulet > >Reply Separator >Author: "Grabowy; Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 7/24/2001 9:48 AM > >Exactly. Which is why I am trying to change this now. > >As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them over the head, >BUT they do pay me to do what is right. > >-Original Message- >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:29 PM >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > >Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after >it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against >it. > >-Original Message- >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > >Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. >They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. > >Document to cya > > >> This is one of those cases where I would document your >> concerns and the >> potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, >> also keep a copy >> for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they >> ask. Yeah, I know >> it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? >> >> Dick Goulet >-- >Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com >-- >Author: Page, Bruce > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 >San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > >To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message >to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in >the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L >(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may >also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). >-- >Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com >-- >Author: Kimberly Smith > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 >San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > >To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message >to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in >the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L >(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may >also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). >-- >Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com >-- >Author: Grabowy, Chris > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Fat City Network Services--
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
It goes with the territory. > Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to > the ground after > it goes south, no matter how well you document that you > recommended against it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Over the past 17 years, I have been on both sides of this fence. Right is defined by the gods that be. I know, because I have fought the fights. I have been the person having to live with the system left by consultants that designed the system "right" and they were backed by my manager against my position. Then I had to explain to the manager later why we could not do certain things. I have also won the fight and lived with the consequences. I have also been the consultant that came in and said this is stupid and it needs to be done this way. I have won and lost those fights too. They pay consultants to make recommendations and then do what they tell you to do. You have the choice to stay and do it or to leave. > As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them > over the head, > BUT they do pay me to do what is right. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Hmmm...when the spec is changed because of some business requirement then that's fine. But when it's changed because your own designers cant argue the design on technical merit then what? A spec should quote all the business rules, and some high level details about the overall architecture of the system. But the spec shouldn't tell you that you will have these two specific tables in the database, with these specific fields, etc. In the end the contractor is ultimately responsible for the validity and performance of the system that they deliver. The contractor will never be able to point back to some disclaimer and say "We told you so". It will be next to impossible to point to the disclaimer when you start slipping the schedule or when the performance is not quite there. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:09 PM To: Grabowy; Chris; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Chris, True, except when I as the customer change the specs. Then what is right is what I say. Or as a Program Management instructor told the class "As it is written, so let it be done." Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Grabowy; Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/24/2001 9:48 AM Exactly. Which is why I am trying to change this now. As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them over the head, BUT they do pay me to do what is right. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against it. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re:RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Chris, True, except when I as the customer change the specs. Then what is right is what I say. Or as a Program Management instructor told the class "As it is written, so let it be done." Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Grabowy; Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/24/2001 9:48 AM Exactly. Which is why I am trying to change this now. As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them over the head, BUT they do pay me to do what is right. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against it. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Exactly. Which is why I am trying to change this now. As for the previous comment, they do not pay me to beat them over the head, BUT they do pay me to do what is right. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against it. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re:RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Bruce, You are correct, but I've been on both sides of that equation. If the contractor does not keep a good file of their objections I the customer will beat them over the head when I have performance issues. One reason I don't want to be a consultant/contractor any more, your never right. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: "Page; Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 7/24/2001 9:01 AM Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Yes, but ironically enough, its the consultant they ram to the ground after it goes south, no matter how well you document that you recommended against it. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:02 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Data Modeling opinion? Help?
Keep in mind that they pay you to advise them and to do what they want done. They do not pay you to beat them over the head to do what is right. Document to cya > This is one of those cases where I would document your > concerns and the > potential consequences thereof and submit that to damagement, > also keep a copy > for yourself in the 'Pearl Harbor File'. Then do as they > ask. Yeah, I know > it's dumb, but what are you as a consultant/contractor going to do? > > Dick Goulet -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Page, Bruce INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Data Modeling opinion? Help?
I am currently on a project where I have pretty much completed the logical/physical models. Since the client has there own data modelers, they have reviewed the models and wanted specific changes. I have agreed with all there changes except for one. I have tried to explain why this change would not be prudent, but they have insisted. To ensure that there change is enforced they went to there management and have now placed there change into the project requirements. Thereby, forcing us, the contractor, to implement this change into the model. I have run this change by several different people and they agree that it should not be implemented. I am now looking for feedback from the list. If you are willing to provide feedback then please read on... This is a claims system. A mailed package was not delivered or is damaged, so the customer files a claim. Every claim consists of the mailer's name and address, and the addressee's name and address, plus some other information. Aside from the average consumer, a Business Mailer(BM) can also file a claim. The BM has a special agreement with the client and gets special treatment when filing claims, and therefore a Business Mailer profile is created. Originally, I was going to describe the two versions of the model, but decided to post PDF files of the model on the web. The ERDs are accessible by clicking on the links below. One way --- http://www.geocities.com/christophergrabowy/oneway.pdf Two way --- http://www.geocities.com/christophergrabowy/twoway.pdf Both models have a claim table, which contains all the miscellaneous claim information. Both models have an address table. Oneway.pdf separates the BM addresses out, because they are not related to a claim. Twoway.pdf puts all the addresses(claim addresses and BM profile addresses) into the address table, and also includes the customer name fields. Both models have a customer table. This is were the majority of the dispute revolves around. In oneway.pdf, the customer table contains the customer names(mailer and addressee) that were submitted with the claim, it's PK is the claim_id. The Business Mailer profile is not directly related to a specific claim, so it is put into it's own table(a BM profile table), it's PK is the BM agreement number. In twoway.pdf, the customer table contains the name of the customer that filed the claim, and the Business Mailer profiles. Since these types of data use different fields, then the "top part" of the customer table contains the customer name fields, and "bottom part" of the table contains the Business Mailer profile fields. And since either part of the table could be filled out, all the fields are null. Finally, since there is no natural PK for the combination of these two records types, a synthetic PK is generated. If anyone has any questions then please don't hesitate to ask. Again, any feedback would be greatly appreciated. MANY THANKS Chris "May Oracle be with you...always" -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
