RE: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-21 Thread Goulet, Dick 
Jared,

Correction, "was".  Hasn't been updated in several years as I understand.  
That's why they farmed it out to MySql recently.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 12:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



Actually, that 'cheap thing' is SAP DB, which is a simply
what SAP renamed Adabas when they purchased it.  Apparently it
is quite a capable databas.


On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 05:59, Goulet, Dick wrote:
> SAP runs on Oracle.  Unless you use that cheap thing that MYSql currently offers, in 
> which case use heterogeneous services, if you can find the odbc driver.  Then a DB 
> Link or the COPY command will work.
> 
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:37 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Iz SAP DB Oracle??
> 
> 
> On 2003.10.20 07:34, "Goulet, Dick" wrote:
> > Have you tried SQL*Plus's COPY command??
> > 
> > 
> > Dick Goulet
> > Senior Oracle DBA
> > Oracle Certified 8i DBA
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:39 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is
> > actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat
> > files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because
> > the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
> > 
> > What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links (because
> > of its slowness.
> > 
> > I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
> > 
> > TIA
> > gb
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   _
> > 
> > Want to chat instantly with your online friends?
> >  > >
> > Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
> > 
> >
> 
> -- 
> Mladen Gogala
> Oracle DBA
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Mladen Gogala
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Jared Still 

Actually, that 'cheap thing' is SAP DB, which is a simply
what SAP renamed Adabas when they purchased it.  Apparently it
is quite a capable databas.


On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 05:59, Goulet, Dick wrote:
> SAP runs on Oracle.  Unless you use that cheap thing that MYSql currently offers, in 
> which case use heterogeneous services, if you can find the odbc driver.  Then a DB 
> Link or the COPY command will work.
> 
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:37 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Iz SAP DB Oracle??
> 
> 
> On 2003.10.20 07:34, "Goulet, Dick" wrote:
> > Have you tried SQL*Plus's COPY command??
> > 
> > 
> > Dick Goulet
> > Senior Oracle DBA
> > Oracle Certified 8i DBA
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:39 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > 
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is
> > actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat
> > files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because
> > the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
> > 
> > What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links (because
> > of its slowness.
> > 
> > I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
> > 
> > TIA
> > gb
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   _
> > 
> > Want to chat instantly with your online friends?
> >  > >
> > Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
> > 
> >
> 
> -- 
> Mladen Gogala
> Oracle DBA
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Mladen Gogala
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
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> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Goulet, Dick
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RE: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread MacGregor, Ian A. 
Title: Message



On the 
application which needs the data,can you use CTAS with nologging?  This is 
a pretty fast way of transfering data.  Have you investigated  
transportable tablespaces.  How current does the data have to be?  

 
Ian 
MacGregor
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  
  -Original Message-From: Gunnar Berglund 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 
  10:39 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: 
  Data Transfer between two instances
  Hi all,
   
  we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is 
  actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat 
  files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because 
  the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
   
  What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links 
  (because of its slowness.
   
  I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
   
  TIA
  gb
  
  
  Want to chat instantly with your online 
  friends? Get 
  the FREE Yahoo! Messenger

Re: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Mladen Gogala 
I believe that transferring large quantities of data between
point A and point B at discrete intervals is not an optimal operation
in itself. I could argue a point that if application needs to do so,  
the application needs to be re-designed, possibly by using data guard
or similar tools which would transfer data continuously, in small
quantities. When the need for accessing the data arises, the data is
already there and all you need is a Cartesian product in which several
multi-gigabyte tables are accessed using full table scan, preferably
by using nested loops. That ought to keep the instance busy until the
next transfer.
On 10/20/2003 10:49:29 AM, "Goulet, Dick" wrote:
Stephane,

After much experimentation it is my considered opinion that
SQL*Net is NOT the most efficient way to move data from point a to b,
especially when using DB_LINKS.  SDU-TDU do help, but only  
marginally.
 What you really need to do is use a bulk collect method that most
application duhvelopers just don't seem to understand.  They like
their data by the spoon full, not dump truck load.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA
-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:19 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Db link slow ?
Are you sure ?  What was the bottleneck when you test ?
Using insert /*+ appent */ on non-indexed tables with nologging is
usually fast enough in most cases.
I know that we can play with the SDU-TDU parameters on sql*net but I
do not know what kind of performance improvement we can get from  
that.



Stephane Paquette

Administrateur de bases de donnees

Database Administrator

Standard Life

www.standardlife.ca

Tel. (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
Gunnar Berglund
Sent: 20 octobre, 2003 01:39
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Hi all,

we have an application which needs data from other environment (which
is actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we
create flat files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I  
don't
like this because the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is
somehow "secret".

What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links
(because of its slowness.
I very much appreciate all your suggestions...

TIA
gb


  _

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Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger


Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA


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RE: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Goulet, Dick 



Stephane,
    
    After much experimentation it is my considered opinion that 
SQL*Net is NOT the most efficient way to move data from point a to b, especially 
when using DB_LINKS.  SDU-TDU do help, but only marginally.  What you 
really need to do is use a bulk collect method that most application duhvelopers 
just don't seem to understand.  They like their data by the spoon full, not 
dump truck load.
 
Dick GouletSenior Oracle DBAOracle Certified 8i 
DBA 

  -Original Message-From: Stephane Paquette 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, October 20, 
  2003 10:19 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
  ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Data Transfer between two 
  instances
  Db 
  link slow ?
  Are 
  you sure ?  What was the bottleneck when you test 
  ?
   
  Using insert /*+ appent */ on non-indexed tables with nologging is 
  usually fast enough in most cases.
   
  I 
  know that we can play with the SDU-TDU parameters on sql*net but I do not 
  know what kind of performance improvement we can get from 
  that.
   
   
  
  
  
  Stephane 
  Paquette
  Administrateur 
  de bases de donnees
  Database 
  Administrator
  Standard 
  Life
  www.standardlife.ca
  Tel. 
  (514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Gunnar 
  BerglundSent: 20 octobre, 2003 01:39To: Multiple 
  recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: Data Transfer between two 
  instances
  
Hi all,
 
we have an application which needs data from other environment (which 
is actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat 
files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because 
the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
 
What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links 
(because of its slowness.
 
I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
 
TIA
gb


Want to chat instantly with your online 
friends? Get 
the FREE Yahoo! Messenger

RE: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Stephane Paquette 



Db 
link slow ?
Are 
you sure ?  What was the bottleneck when you test ?
 
Using 
insert /*+ appent */ on non-indexed tables with nologging is usually fast 
enough in most cases.
 
I know 
that we can play with the SDU-TDU parameters on sql*net but I do not know 
what kind of performance improvement we can get from that.
 
 



Stephane Paquette
Administrateur 
de bases de donnees
Database 
Administrator
Standard 
Life
www.standardlife.ca
Tel. 
(514) 499-7999 7470 and (514) 925-7187
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Gunnar 
BerglundSent: 20 octobre, 2003 01:39To: Multiple 
recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: Data Transfer between two 
instances

  Hi all,
   
  we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is 
  actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat 
  files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because 
  the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
   
  What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links 
  (because of its slowness.
   
  I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
   
  TIA
  gb
  
  
  Want to chat instantly with your online 
  friends? Get 
  the FREE Yahoo! Messenger

Re: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Tim Gorman 
Gunnar,

Please do not discard dblinks so readily.

As in many situations, I suspect that they are blamed for ³slowness² when it
is really the application code that is at fault.  All too often, people will
write PL/SQL code that hasn¹t a hope in hell of performing well, then put a
database link into the mix and blame the poor performance on that.  A good
example of this would be:

declare
cursor get_rows
is
select  col1, col2, col3, ..., coln
from[EMAIL PROTECTED];
begin
for x in get_rows loop
insert into dest_table (col1, col2, col3, ..., coln)
values (x.col1, x.col2, x.col3, ..., x.coln);
end loop;
end;
/

Straight row-by-row processing, no BULK operations, no direct-path -- none
of the things you'd want to do when moving bulk volumes of data!  It's not
the dblink that is slow, although the impact of latency is accentuated by
the repeated and unnecessarily frequent dblink traffic.  But code like this
will perform poorly even if database links were not involved at all.

Try using parallel direct-path INSERT /*+ APPEND PARALLEL NOLOGGING */
operations to ³pull² the data across the database link.  I am pretty certain
that you¹ll like the results and it¹ll be a heck of a lot easier to program
than reverse-engineering the two-phase commit protocol that you get for
free.  Data movement using "flat files" is an unnecessarily painful way to
die;  one thing goes wrong and you're never sure if you've ever gotten
things right.

In straight SQL*Plus code it might look something like this:

whenever sqlerror exit failure rollback
set echo on feedback on timing on
spool pull_data
alter session enable parallel dml;
insert /*+ append parallel(y, 4) nologging */
into dest_table y
(col1, col2, col3, ..., coln)
select  /*+ full(x) parallel(x, 4) */
col1, col2, col3, ..., coln
from[EMAIL PROTECTED] x;
exit success commit

If for some reason you are not permitted to perform direct-path inserts on
the "dest_table", you can still make use of the BULK operations introduced
to PL/SQL in Oracle8i.  Not the best, but still quite good.  If you are not
yet running Oracle8i or above, you could still simulate the effect
(somewhat) by making use of PL/SQL arrays (a.k.a. table types) to select
data into, transfer across the dblink, and insert from.  There are plenty of
alternatives to speed bulk operations across dblinks, regardless of what
version of the RDBMS you are using...

Also, it might help (very slightly) if the database link used for this
purpose is defined using a TNS-string that raises the SDU and TDU parameters
in SQL*Net, but don't expect a great deal of difference from this measure.
As with anything else, writing appropriate application code has the best
impact on performance.

Hope this helps...

-Tim


on 10/19/03 10:39 PM, Gunnar Berglund at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is
> actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat
> files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because
> the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
> 
> What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links (because of
> its slowness.
> 
> I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
> 
> TIA
> gb
> 
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
>  > 


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RE: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Goulet, Dick 
SAP runs on Oracle.  Unless you use that cheap thing that MYSql currently offers, in 
which case use heterogeneous services, if you can find the odbc driver.  Then a DB 
Link or the COPY command will work.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:37 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Iz SAP DB Oracle??


On 2003.10.20 07:34, "Goulet, Dick" wrote:
> Have you tried SQL*Plus's COPY command??
> 
> 
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:39 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is
> actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat
> files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because
> the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
> 
> What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links (because
> of its slowness.
> 
> I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
> 
> TIA
> gb
> 
> 
> 
>   _
> 
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends?
>  >
> Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
> 
>

-- 
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
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Re: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread kminerva 
yep

Iz SAP DB Oracle??

On 2003.10.20 07:34, "Goulet, Dick" wrote:
> Have you tried SQL*Plus's COPY command??
> 
> 
> Dick Goulet
> Senior Oracle DBA
> Oracle Certified 8i DBA
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:39 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is
> actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat
> files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this 
because
> the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
> 
> What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links 
(because
> of its slowness.
> 
> I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
> 
> TIA
> gb
> 
> 
> 
>   _
> 
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends?
> 
 >
> Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger
> 
>

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
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Re: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Mladen Gogala 
Iz SAP DB Oracle??

On 2003.10.20 07:34, "Goulet, Dick" wrote:
Have you tried SQL*Plus's COPY command??

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA
-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:39 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Hi all,

we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is
actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat
files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because
the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links (because
of its slowness.
I very much appreciate all your suggestions...

TIA
gb


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RE: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-20 Thread Goulet, Dick 



Have 
you tried SQL*Plus's COPY command??
 
Dick GouletSenior Oracle DBAOracle Certified 8i 
DBA 

  -Original Message-From: Gunnar Berglund 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 
  1:39 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: 
  Data Transfer between two instances
  Hi all,
   
  we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is 
  actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat 
  files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because 
  the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
   
  What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links 
  (because of its slowness.
   
  I very much appreciate all your suggestions...
   
  TIA
  gb
  
  
  Want to chat instantly with your online 
  friends? Get 
  the FREE Yahoo! Messenger

Re: Data Transfer between two instances

2003-10-19 Thread Mladen Gogala 
That is actually what external procedures were made for. So, here is how I  
would do it:
I would create a set of C programs which would ask the server
process on the SAP DB side for the data and then deliver that data
back to oracle. You have a myriad of means for communication between
the processes:

- Pipes Most traditional and primitive, but very easy to probram. Also, pipes  
are limited in scope because they cannot handle network. There are tricks with  
named pipes and NFS, but those are perversions of Tao and those who use them
will be rewarded by having to use winsock for all eternity.

- Sockets. They're easy to program and to implement, they handle network well,
but the problem lies within the unix file paradigm they use. Sockets treat  
every transfer as an amorph mass of bytes and do not impose any structure on  
what's transimitted/received.

- Messaging systems. IBM MQ Series, TIBCO Rendesvouz, Oracle's own AQ stuff.
Those systems impose structure but are, generally speaking, less performant   
then sockets or pipes.

- Shared memory and System V IPC, combined with mmap. That is absolutely the  
fastest way to do such things, but also the hardest one to program. In  
essence, two programs map ("attach") the same shared memory buffer and they  
use it to communicate among themselves. The programmer is responsible for  
synchronizing  access and  singalling. You should really get "Unix Network  
Programming"  written by Richard Stevens. Both volumes together cost around  
$140 but are well worth it.

- CORBA and TP monitor stuff. TP monitors (I worked with the two most popular  
TP monitors, IMS and CICS in the 80's and I'm grateful to the Lord in heaven  
that I don't have to that any more. Hallelujah!). TP monitors often have  
proprietary means of communication between transactions. I dunno much about  
CORBA, but my impressions are that it will be rady for prime time sometimes in  
the year 2525 (I love 106.8 light FM, radio with most music and least talk).

To make things even better, both vendors support some of the products listed  
above (CORBA, TP monitors, messaging systems) on the marketing level. If I  
were you, and if there weren't gigabytes of information to transfer in a  
secure fashion over WAN, I'd stick with pipes or sockets.

On 2003.10.20 01:39, Gunnar Berglund wrote:
Hi all,

we have an application which needs data from other environment (which is
actually SAP db). Currently we have implemented it the way we create flat
files and put them in using pl/sql -procedures but I don't like this because
the data in the flat files are "visible" and it is somehow "secret".
What other options we might have if we do not want to use db links (because
of its slowness.
I very much appreciate all your suggestions...

TIA
gb
-
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! 
Messenger
--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Mladen Gogala
 INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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