RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Thanks for all the comments I did do a little more digging. I found out that the reason they are using Cobol is that there are Cobol programs that have the business logic for doing benefit calculations. They do not want to re-write those modules. So they are doing the entire application in Cobol and only using the database as a place to save the data. As far as staff and skills, the current job market has an excess of persons with PL/SQL skills. So I don't think the decisions was made with any respect to how many people will be able to maintain this over the next 10 years. The number of people with COBOL skills is declining at the organization. But if they keep doing new development in COBOL, then maybe they will be able to convince the younger programmers to learn it :-P I will have to look into the MQ-Series module for Oracle that was mentionned. -Original Message- WILLIAMS Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Babette - For some code, PL/SQL will offer significantly better performance. For other code it may not matter so much. One of an organization's biggest hidden investments is their code. If they feel COBOL is where they prefer to invest, that isn't the end of the world. For one thing, it doesn't tie them as closely to Oracle as coding everything in PL/SQL would. If you want better reasons not to do this, you need to nose around and find who the players are and what is their motivation. Arguments succeed much better when you know your audience. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette [snipped] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Babette Turner-Underwood wrote: As far as staff and skills, the current job market has an excess of persons with PL/SQL skills. So I don't think the decisions was made with any respect to how many people will be able to maintain this over the next 10 years. The number of people with COBOL skills is declining at the organization. But if they keep doing new development in COBOL, then maybe they will be able to convince the younger programmers to learn it :-P Only if the younger programmers are in their fifties. COBOL is a maintainance programmers language. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Alex INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Babette, We are rolling out a *major* app with 14-16 production databases. All of the *core* processing is in COBOL. The app has a Web front end. COBOL won't die. I picked up a bumper sticker, from Fujitsu's booth at Oracle World last week, that asks got COBOL?. - Kirti PS : I did COBOL for 12 years :-) -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Thanks for all the comments I did do a little more digging. I found out that the reason they are using Cobol is that there are Cobol programs that have the business logic for doing benefit calculations. They do not want to re-write those modules. So they are doing the entire application in Cobol and only using the database as a place to save the data. As far as staff and skills, the current job market has an excess of persons with PL/SQL skills. So I don't think the decisions was made with any respect to how many people will be able to maintain this over the next 10 years. The number of people with COBOL skills is declining at the organization. But if they keep doing new development in COBOL, then maybe they will be able to convince the younger programmers to learn it :-P I will have to look into the MQ-Series module for Oracle that was mentionned. -Original Message- WILLIAMS Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Babette - For some code, PL/SQL will offer significantly better performance. For other code it may not matter so much. One of an organization's biggest hidden investments is their code. If they feel COBOL is where they prefer to invest, that isn't the end of the world. For one thing, it doesn't tie them as closely to Oracle as coding everything in PL/SQL would. If you want better reasons not to do this, you need to nose around and find who the players are and what is their motivation. Arguments succeed much better when you know your audience. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette [snipped] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Dick, others - Question for you. Consider that a company's custom-written software is one of its largest hidden investments. To do it successfully, a company must not only invest a lot of programmer time, but time and effort from people all over the organization to dig in an really understand the requirements. For many companies in retrospect COBOL has been very successful because they haven't had to rewrite the programs in many years. You may argue that maybe that was too long, but I would respond that it is better to rewrite for business reasons rather than because of technological obsolescence. You also must pick a popular language so you have many experienced programmers available to hire. Now, which language would you advise a large company to select? Do you feel that the new COBOL has emerged, a general-purpose business language that will be around for years, widely available? - Visual Basic - Hey even Microsoft is upsetting this one as it moves to .NET. Need I elaborate on how you will be eternally wedded to MS. - C++ - Seems to be doing okay at the moment, but several years ago there were a lot of articles predicting its demise. - PL/SQL - Excellent to cure specific performance problems, but use it for everything? Well you better not carp about Oracle licensing fees. - Java - This is the current bet here. However, it seems somewhat cumbersome as a COBOL replacement. It seems as if your programmers need to be fairly knowledgeable technically. - C# - Does it have a future beyond being a Java spoiler? - Of course, before you count out COBOL, you should review all the languages over the years that were going to replace COBOL, but are now answers to computer trivia questions - Pascal, Ada, Modula-2, and the list just goes on. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 5:52 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Tom, IMHO, if Babette's organization see themselves as *never* leaving the Cobol arena then it's time to dust off the resume as that organization will become extinct. No one that I know of is learning Cobol anymore and there are no classes at the local universities on the subject. Fortran classes and programmers are also becoming a scarce resource to find which is why we left ManMan and TurboImage for PeopleSoft and Oracle. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Mercadante; Thomas F [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 11/18/2002 5:03 AM Babette, The decision really comes down to the organization. If they see themselves as *never* leaving the Cobol arena, and they have an ample supply of Cobol programmers, then they should stay with it. What you could do is to make friends with the applications people, and show them how PL/SQL works. What you will find is that they will take to PL/SQL like a fish to water. And pretty soon, more and more PL/SQL packages will be written that are simply called by the Cobol programs. Cobol would then be a simple entry point to the database - able to interface nicely with the operating system (reading and writing flat files, producing reports and forms), while the majority of the logic may be written in PL/SQL. Maybe, just maybe, the person making the decision see's no benefit to using PL/SQL. And given your local labor market, maybe he's right! Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Khedr, Waleed wrote: Cobol! Again!:( -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette May I play the devil's advocate? Even if Pro*Cobol seems to be a weird choice, there may be a case for not coding the logic in PL/SQL : database portability. I have heard recently of a very, very, very big company dumping Oracle in favour of DB2. Reason ? Cost. I guess that in such a case, porting a Pro*Cobol program is easier than PL/SQL. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Babette - For some code, PL/SQL will offer significantly better performance. For other code it may not matter so much. One of an organization's biggest hidden investments is their code. If they feel COBOL is where they prefer to invest, that isn't the end of the world. For one thing, it doesn't tie them as closely to Oracle as coding everything in PL/SQL would. If you want better reasons not to do this, you need to nose around and find who the players are and what is their motivation. Arguments succeed much better when you know your audience. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Babette, The decision really comes down to the organization. If they see themselves as *never* leaving the Cobol arena, and they have an ample supply of Cobol programmers, then they should stay with it. What you could do is to make friends with the applications people, and show them how PL/SQL works. What you will find is that they will take to PL/SQL like a fish to water. And pretty soon, more and more PL/SQL packages will be written that are simply called by the Cobol programs. Cobol would then be a simple entry point to the database - able to interface nicely with the operating system (reading and writing flat files, producing reports and forms), while the majority of the logic may be written in PL/SQL. Maybe, just maybe, the person making the decision see's no benefit to using PL/SQL. And given your local labor market, maybe he's right! Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Khedr, Waleed wrote: Cobol! Again!:( -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette May I play the devil's advocate? Even if Pro*Cobol seems to be a weird choice, there may be a case for not coding the logic in PL/SQL : database portability. I have heard recently of a very, very, very big company dumping Oracle in favour of DB2. Reason ? Cost. I guess that in such a case, porting a Pro*Cobol program is easier than PL/SQL. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mercadante, Thomas F INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Babette, If they are a Cobol shop then there is nothing wrong with using Pro*Cobol. I disagree with your statement about using PL/SQL for the business logic. I personally think you should put as much of that in the database. Rick Mercadante, Thomas F To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] ate.ny.us cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please [EMAIL PROTECTED]help 11/18/2002 08:03 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L Babette, The decision really comes down to the organization. If they see themselves as *never* leaving the Cobol arena, and they have an ample supply of Cobol programmers, then they should stay with it. What you could do is to make friends with the applications people, and show them how PL/SQL works. What you will find is that they will take to PL/SQL like a fish to water. And pretty soon, more and more PL/SQL packages will be written that are simply called by the Cobol programs. Cobol would then be a simple entry point to the database - able to interface nicely with the operating system (reading and writing flat files, producing reports and forms), while the majority of the logic may be written in PL/SQL. Maybe, just maybe, the person making the decision see's no benefit to using PL/SQL. And given your local labor market, maybe he's right! Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Khedr, Waleed wrote: Cobol! Again!:( -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette May I play the devil's advocate? Even if Pro*Cobol seems to be a weird choice, there may be a case for not coding the logic in PL/SQL : database portability. I have heard recently of a very, very, very big company dumping Oracle in favour of DB2. Reason ? Cost. I guess that in such a case, porting a Pro*Cobol program is easier than PL/SQL. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mercadante, Thomas F INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services--
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Title: RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help Rick, You put BI into db using pl/sql anyways ... (well Java is another thing ..) Raj __ Rajendra Jamadagni MIS, ESPN Inc. Rajendra dot Jamadagni at ESPN dot com Any opinion expressed here is personal and doesn't reflect that of ESPN Inc. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, but having an opinion is an art! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help Babette, If they are a Cobol shop then there is nothing wrong with using Pro*Cobol. I disagree with your statement about using PL/SQL for the business logic. I personally think you should put as much of that in the database. Rick Mercadante, Thomas F To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ate.ny.us cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please [EMAIL PROTECTED] help 11/18/2002 08:03 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L Babette, The decision really comes down to the organization. If they see themselves as *never* leaving the Cobol arena, and they have an ample supply of Cobol programmers, then they should stay with it. What you could do is to make friends with the applications people, and show them how PL/SQL works. What you will find is that they will take to PL/SQL like a fish to water. And pretty soon, more and more PL/SQL packages will be written that are simply called by the Cobol programs. Cobol would then be a simple entry point to the database - able to interface nicely with the operating system (reading and writing flat files, producing reports and forms), while the majority of the logic may be written in PL/SQL. Maybe, just maybe, the person making the decision see's no benefit to using PL/SQL. And given your local labor market, maybe he's right! Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Khedr, Waleed wrote: Cobol! Again!:( -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette May I play the devil's advocate? Even if Pro*Cobol seems to be a weird choice, there may be a case for not coding the logic in PL/SQL : database portability. I have heard recently of a very, very, very big company dumping Oracle in favour of DB2. Reason ? Cost. I guess that in such a case, porting a Pro*Cobol program is easier than PL/SQL. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mercadante, Thomas F INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list
Re[2]:RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Gene, Well at least I'm not the only one who got tossed out of the frypan into the fire!! Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Gene Sais [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 11/18/2002 7:27 AM I disagree with your last statement. Since IBM purchased informix, we are in battle with their so-called concurrent licensing ripoff. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/17/02 09:43PM Ron, Thankyou, I appreciate it. And for the individual who proposed that it might be better to do it in Pro*Cobol for database independence. We have had the thought of dumping Oracle for it's DB/2 competitor, until we found out that DB/2 was no cheaper than Oracle in the end run. Probably the only benefit is that IBM is more slack on enforcing their licenses. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Ron/Sarah Yount [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 11/16/2002 2:53 PM In the for what it is worth department: In addition to Dick's comments (with which I agree) Be careful how you approach this situation. If you wish to succeed, it may be key to let the powers that be know that you are not proposing bleeding edge solutions, and that looking down the road towards total cost of ownership and supporting the application, it may behoove them to consider something more mainstream. Nobody ever truly wins a discussion by starting an argument with someone in a higher level of authority. Perhaps you should inquire about the why of the decisions so you understand the key issues to address to propose a better one. Good Luck, Yep, even technical decisions require us to exercise high levels of diplomacy :-) -Ron- -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Babette, This is one of those from this old turd to that old fart messages. I've been around Oracle since 1985 I love it too. But it sounds like the director has a serious problem with new technology. Doing anything in COBOL today? Even PeopleSoft is busy re-writing their code in C++. Seesh his age is seriously showing. Oracle already has an adapter to MQ series, why re-invent the wheel when someone else has already done a better job of it. Then code the business logic in PL/SQL so that not only can this application use it, but any other that comes around. I believe it's known as code reuse. Another old term. You might start off by handing him a copy of Oracle 8i new features functions. BTW: add a copy of the 9i edition as well. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Babette Turner-Underwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 11/15/2002 2:24 PM I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron/Sarah Yount INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list
Re: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
If I understood correctly your whole application will be on the mainframe with web front end to interface with the users. We are a mainframe (mostly) company and we have dozens of Cobol programmer on the mainframe and NO sql programmer. (I have to fight the open system group to get at least ONE sql programmer so the DBA team will not have to write whatever sql programs the APPLICATIONS need). So a new project on the mainframe will definitely be in Cobol. I still do not understand why they want Oracle on the mainframe. We are working with ADABAS and get very good result. Most other mainframe that I know use DB2. I have not heard of anyone using Oracle on mainframe (at least under IBM MVS). Yechiel Adar Mehish - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:24 AM I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Yechiel Adar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Khedr, Waleed wrote: Cobol! Again!:( -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette May I play the devil's advocate? Even if Pro*Cobol seems to be a weird choice, there may be a case for not coding the logic in PL/SQL : database portability. I have heard recently of a very, very, very big company dumping Oracle in favour of DB2. Reason ? Cost. I guess that in such a case, porting a Pro*Cobol program is easier than PL/SQL. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
In the for what it is worth department: In addition to Dick's comments (with which I agree) Be careful how you approach this situation. If you wish to succeed, it may be key to let the powers that be know that you are not proposing bleeding edge solutions, and that looking down the road towards total cost of ownership and supporting the application, it may behoove them to consider something more mainstream. Nobody ever truly wins a discussion by starting an argument with someone in a higher level of authority. Perhaps you should inquire about the why of the decisions so you understand the key issues to address to propose a better one. Good Luck, Yep, even technical decisions require us to exercise high levels of diplomacy :-) -Ron- -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:13 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Babette, This is one of those from this old turd to that old fart messages. I've been around Oracle since 1985 I love it too. But it sounds like the director has a serious problem with new technology. Doing anything in COBOL today? Even PeopleSoft is busy re-writing their code in C++. Seesh his age is seriously showing. Oracle already has an adapter to MQ series, why re-invent the wheel when someone else has already done a better job of it. Then code the business logic in PL/SQL so that not only can this application use it, but any other that comes around. I believe it's known as code reuse. Another old term. You might start off by handing him a copy of Oracle 8i new features functions. BTW: add a copy of the 9i edition as well. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Babette Turner-Underwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 11/15/2002 2:24 PM I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron/Sarah Yount INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: New development in Cobol or PL/SQL - please help
Cobol! Again!:( -Original Message- Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just found out today that we have a major development initiative that is starting and they are planning on using Pro*Cobol to develop the application. (my head is still shaking in disbelief!!!) So we will have a Java front-end, invoking MQ series that will go across to the mainframe for MQ series to invoke Pro*Cobol programs that will then do the processing (accessing data and doing calculations) and then return data. If anyone has been in this or a similar situation, please help. I need some really good arguments as to why we should put the business logic into PL/SQL instead of Pro*Cobol. I understand the reason we are using Oracle is that the director has 15 years experience with it and loves it. Aaargh!!! thanks Babette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Babette Turner-Underwood INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Khedr, Waleed INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
