Re: [Origami] Box-pleating
Some alternative vocab that may capture the Elias contribution to box-pleating further developed the application of... made extensive use of... advanced the use of... creatively extended the application of... took box-folding to the next level... -Original Message- From: Origami [mailto:origami-boun...@lists.digitalorigami.com] On Behalf Of David Mitchell via Origami Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 2:26 AM To: origami@lists.digitalorigami.com Subject: Re: [Origami] Box-pleating Robert Lang indited: >The quoted description from Kenneway is, IMHO, not a very accurate description of the methods used by Elias (and Hulme, let?s not forget) that we now call box-pleating. But, if I recall correctly, even Elias didn?t call his techniques ?box-pleating? ? I think he used the term ?box-folding?. Thank you. I was hoping you would jump in on this! Kenneway does say that the technique is 'Sometimes called 'box-folding'' though he does not say that Elias used this term. I also confess that, through laziness, I did not quote Kenneway's full description of the technique, which goes beyond the collapse of a concentrically creased square into a multiply sunk waterbomb base. Kenneway says two things of historical interest. First he says that 'some of the earliest models created by this method included R Rohm's series of 'flowers in a vase'' and later says 'the technique itself derives from the two versions of the 'Jack in-the-box' devised by F Rohm and N Elias in 1963'. One version of Rohm's flower in a pot was mentioned, and pictured, in Vol 3: Issue 2 of the Origamian for Spring / Summer 1963. Another, called 'Star Flowers' was diagrammed in Sam Randlett's 'The Best of Origami', also published in that year. I'm not convinced that either of those are 'box-pleated' designs. The diagrams for Mooser's Train, however, included in your ODS, are dated 1967. Do you know the date when this design was created rather than diagrammed? Was it fresh off the folding table at that time or had it been around for some years already? I can't find any mention of the design elsewhere in the literature at an early date. There are plenty of images of pleated designs, and a waterbomb base, In 'Trattato delle piegature', but I cannot see anything that looks, to me, like the 'Elias stretch'. On the other hand I'm not sure I know what the 'Elias stretch' is ... I still think that it would probably be more accurate to say, as Kenneway does, that Elias made frequent use of/developed the technique rather than originated /pioneered it. Dave
Re: [Origami] Box-pleating
Robert Lang indited: >The quoted description from Kenneway is, IMHO, not a very accurate description >of the methods used by Elias (and Hulme, let?s not forget) that we now call >box-pleating. But, if I recall correctly, even Elias didn?t call his >techniques ?box-pleating? ? I think he used the term ?box-folding?. Thank you. I was hoping you would jump in on this! Kenneway does say that the technique is 'Sometimes called 'box-folding'' though he does not say that Elias used this term. I also confess that, through laziness, I did not quote Kenneway's full description of the technique, which goes beyond the collapse of a concentrically creased square into a multiply sunk waterbomb base. Kenneway says two things of historical interest. First he says that 'some of the earliest models created by this method included R Rohm's series of 'flowers in a vase'' and later says 'the technique itself derives from the two versions of the 'Jack in-the-box' devised by F Rohm and N Elias in 1963'. One version of Rohm's flower in a pot was mentioned, and pictured, in Vol 3: Issue 2 of the Origamian for Spring / Summer 1963. Another, called 'Star Flowers' was diagrammed in Sam Randlett's 'The Best of Origami', also published in that year. I'm not convinced that either of those are 'box-pleated' designs. The diagrams for Mooser's Train, however, included in your ODS, are dated 1967. Do you know the date when this design was created rather than diagrammed? Was it fresh off the folding table at that time or had it been around for some years already? I can't find any mention of the design elsewhere in the literature at an early date. There are plenty of images of pleated designs, and a waterbomb base, In 'Trattato delle piegature', but I cannot see anything that looks, to me, like the 'Elias stretch'. On the other hand I'm not sure I know what the 'Elias stretch' is ... I still think that it would probably be more accurate to say, as Kenneway does, that Elias made frequent use of/developed the technique rather than originated /pioneered it. Dave
Re: [Origami] Box-pleating
On 15 Nov 2023, at 10:39 a.m., Robert Lang wrote: > >> On Nov 15, 2023, at 7:59 AM, David Mitchell via Origami >> mailto:origami@lists.digitalorigami.com>> >> wrote: >> >> Under the subject 'Folding Legend and Joisel Award - Join our free event', >> Ilan Garibi wrote: >> >> 'Neal Elias can be considered the creator of the modern box-pleating >> technique' >> >> I think this assertion is worth discussing. According to Eric Kenneway's >> 'ABC of Origami', BOS booklet 47, box-pleating is 'a creative folding >> technique pioneered by F Rohm and developed by N Elias'. >> >> Kenneway explains that the crease pattern that results from 'box-pleating' >> is a 'multiple water bomb base or preliminary base' ie a series of >> concentric waterbomb bases or preliminary folds set inside each other, which >> can then be collapsed to form the base that Elias and others used to create >> designs for human figures. >> >> The question then arises as to whether 'the modern box-pleating technique' >> is something entirely different. On this definition Mooser's Train, for >> instance, would not be an example of 'box-pleating', although it is >> effectively made from a series of pleated boxes. >> >> Thoughts, anyone? > > The quoted description from Kenneway is, IMHO, not a very accurate > description of the methods used by Elias (and Hulme, let’s not forget) that > we now call box-pleating. But, if I recall correctly, even Elias didn’t call > his techniques “box-pleating” — I think he used the term “box-folding”. > > And he did do plenty of 3D designs like Mooser’s Train (like his Cart and > Horse, Grand Piano, and more), in addition to the flat-folded structures that > are in his human figures. > > It’s a bit inaccurate to call him the “creator,” since he learned from > Mooser’s train, and many of the techniques are even older (pleating was > around for over a millennium in the New World, and I recall seeing what sure > looked like an “Elias Stretch” in Giegher’s napkin-folding treatise). And > "the modern box-pleating technique” now includes techniques that were added > after Elias (e.g., polygon packing methods of design, “Kamiya pattern”, and > the like). > > But he went far beyond what people had done before and added many new > techniques of his own. I think it’s fair to say he showed the power and > diversity possible with the technique, as well as creating many beautiful > artworks. So perhaps “Neal Elias pioneered the modern box-pleating technique” > might be a better way of describing his role, honoring his preeminence and > contributions without suggesting there was nothing before him. > > Robert Has anyone given a good definition of box-pleating? When I try to explain it to people I focus on the dominance of parallel pleats on a grid and 90º and 45º angles, but that doesn’t take into account many cases where other angles are used, and I’m sure there are examples of models with parallel pleats that are not box pleating, such as when multiple sinks are used to thin points for legs or antennae. Then there are things like flat tessellations… Are they box pleating? Or only when the tessellation has box-like 3D structures? Matthew
Re: [Origami] Box-pleating
> On Nov 15, 2023, at 7:59 AM, David Mitchell via Origami > wrote: > > Under the subject 'Folding Legend and Joisel Award - Join our free event', > Ilan Garibi wrote: > > 'Neal Elias can be considered the creator of the modern box-pleating > technique' > > I think this assertion is worth discussing. According to Eric Kenneway's 'ABC > of Origami', BOS booklet 47, box-pleating is 'a creative folding technique > pioneered by F Rohm and developed by N Elias'. > > Kenneway explains that the crease pattern that results from 'box-pleating' is > a 'multiple water bomb base or preliminary base' ie a series of concentric > waterbomb bases or preliminary folds set inside each other, which can then be > collapsed to form the base that Elias and others used to create designs for > human figures. > > The question then arises as to whether 'the modern box-pleating technique' is > something entirely different. On this definition Mooser's Train, for > instance, would not be an example of 'box-pleating', although it is > effectively made from a series of pleated boxes. > > Thoughts, anyone? The quoted description from Kenneway is, IMHO, not a very accurate description of the methods used by Elias (and Hulme, let’s not forget) that we now call box-pleating. But, if I recall correctly, even Elias didn’t call his techniques “box-pleating” — I think he used the term “box-folding”. And he did do plenty of 3D designs like Mooser’s Train (like his Cart and Horse, Grand Piano, and more), in addition to the flat-folded structures that are in his human figures. It’s a bit inaccurate to call him the “creator,” since he learned from Mooser’s train, and many of the techniques are even older (pleating was around for over a millennium in the New World, and I recall seeing what sure looked like an “Elias Stretch” in Giegher’s napkin-folding treatise). And "the modern box-pleating technique” now includes techniques that were added after Elias (e.g., polygon packing methods of design, “Kamiya pattern”, and the like). But he went far beyond what people had done before and added many new techniques of his own. I think it’s fair to say he showed the power and diversity possible with the technique, as well as creating many beautiful artworks. So perhaps “Neal Elias pioneered the modern box-pleating technique” might be a better way of describing his role, honoring his preeminence and contributions without suggesting there was nothing before him. Robert
Re: [Origami] Box-pleating
Under the subject 'Folding Legend and Joisel Award - Join our free event', Ilan Garibi wrote: 'Neal Elias can be considered the creator of the modern box-pleating technique' I think this assertion is worth discussing. According to Eric Kenneway's 'ABC of Origami', BOS booklet 47, box-pleating is 'a creative folding technique pioneered by F Rohm and developed by N Elias'. Kenneway explains that the crease pattern that results from 'box-pleating' is a 'multiple water bomb base or preliminary base' ie a series of concentric waterbomb bases or preliminary folds set inside each other, which can then be collapsed to form the base that Elias and others used to create designs for human figures. The question then arises as to whether 'the modern box-pleating technique' is something entirely different. On this definition Mooser's Train, for instance, would not be an example of 'box-pleating', although it is effectively made from a series of pleated boxes. Thoughts, anyone? Dave
Re: [Origami] Box Pleating book???
Hi Kate, you might want to check this book out featuring the work of Neal Elias https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origami-Neal-Elias-British-Society/dp/1546512276/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=elias+venables=1579091103=8-1 There is also J C Nolan's boook on Mooser's Train https://www.amazon.co.uk/Moosers-Train-Origami-Set/dp/1492800651/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=origami+train=1579091341=books=1-1 Best Wishes Dave Venables -Original Message- From: Origami [mailto:origami-boun...@lists.digitalorigami.com] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Lucioni Sent: 12 January 2020 15:05 To: The Origami Mailing List Subject: Re: [Origami] Box Pleating book??? Hi Kate, Pasquale D'auria's "Voglia di Grigle" is a booklet published by CDO, which is mostly related to box pleating: http://www.origamidauria.it/2016/10/06/q-q-m-44-voglia-griglie/ You can get it becoming a CDO member (and having full access to the CDO downloads), or asking to Pasquale (I can do it for you, in Italian, if you need). Contact me privately, in case (lorenzo.luci...@gmail.com). From Pasquale website: http://www.origamidauria.it/ (it is in Italian, you can translate it in english with google translate) you can also download two of his great booklets: http://www.origamidauria.it/scarigami/ I'm quite sure you will find a large amount of box pleated models. Best, Lorenzo On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 20:21, Kate Honeyman wrote: > I've not seen a primer book for box pleated modelsany recommendations > I've fought my way thru a few Manga, and some Clothing models. It would be > helpful to have a book like Ilan Garibi's Tesselations only about box > pleating. Is there such a thing? Kate > -- Lorenzo Lucioni Wildenbruchstr. 47 40545 Duesseldorf - DE +49.1525.9768654 lorenzo.luci...@gmail.com
Re: [Origami] Box Pleating book???
Hi Kate, Pasquale D'auria's "Voglia di Grigle" is a booklet published by CDO, which is mostly related to box pleating: http://www.origamidauria.it/2016/10/06/q-q-m-44-voglia-griglie/ You can get it becoming a CDO member (and having full access to the CDO downloads), or asking to Pasquale (I can do it for you, in Italian, if you need). Contact me privately, in case (lorenzo.luci...@gmail.com). >From Pasquale website: http://www.origamidauria.it/ (it is in Italian, you can translate it in english with google translate) you can also download two of his great booklets: http://www.origamidauria.it/scarigami/ I'm quite sure you will find a large amount of box pleated models. Best, Lorenzo On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 20:21, Kate Honeyman wrote: > I've not seen a primer book for box pleated modelsany recommendations > I've fought my way thru a few Manga, and some Clothing models. It would be > helpful to have a book like Ilan Garibi's Tesselations only about box > pleating. Is there such a thing? Kate > -- Lorenzo Lucioni Wildenbruchstr. 47 40545 Duesseldorf - DE +49.1525.9768654 lorenzo.luci...@gmail.com
Re: [Origami] Box Pleating book???
Hi, The book 'The Origami of Neal Elias' published by the British Origami Society and available from Amazon contains 29 models many of which incorporate box pleating plus exercises on box pleating techniques and essays. Robert Lang's 'Origami Design Secrets' has a good chapter on the evolution of the technique plus many of Robert's models which incorporate it. Best Wishes Dave Venables -Original Message- From: Origami [mailto:origami-boun...@lists.digitalorigami.com] On Behalf Of Laura R Sent: 29 October 2019 21:33 To: The Origami Mailing List Subject: Re: [Origami] Box Pleating book??? Neal Elias’ booklets published by the British Origami Society. Laura > On Oct 29, 2019, at 1:51 PM, Kate Honeyman wrote: > > I've not seen a primer book for box pleated modelsany recommendations > I've fought my way thru a few Manga, and some Clothing models. It would be > helpful to have a book like Ilan Garibi's Tesselations only about box > pleating. Is there such a thing? Kate
Re: [Origami] Box Pleating book???
Neal Elias’ booklets published by the British Origami Society. Laura > On Oct 29, 2019, at 1:51 PM, Kate Honeyman wrote: > > I've not seen a primer book for box pleated modelsany recommendations > I've fought my way thru a few Manga, and some Clothing models. It would be > helpful to have a book like Ilan Garibi's Tesselations only about box > pleating. Is there such a thing? Kate
Re: [Origami] Box Pleating book???
> On Oct 29, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Kate Honeyman wrote: > > I've not seen a primer book for box pleated modelsany recommendations As I recall Tim Rickman has a series of boxpleating videos on YouTube. Search for that. Also Robert Lang’s origami page has an article regarding box pleating with links to some other resources, including Gerwin Sturm’s five part article on box pleat crease pattern. Hope this helps MaryD >
[Origami] Box Pleating book???
I've not seen a primer book for box pleated modelsany recommendations I've fought my way thru a few Manga, and some Clothing models. It would be helpful to have a book like Ilan Garibi's Tesselations only about box pleating. Is there such a thing? Kate
