Re: orion-list Pharisaic texts
Is there really any intention to find strange texts of the political opponent within the corpus of the DSS? treaties with a nonexistent Sparta? one sided amicitia with Rome? Indian elephants and Greek mercenaries called 'Cypriots'? N.b. 'infra' (adv.) means 'below'; and a passage that exclusively follows the course of the River Jordan and - here - of the Dead Sea, is always to be understood in the sense of 'suedlich von'. Otherwise one would expect a specification like 'infra... ...inter septentriones et occasium solis (spectans)', ie 'below... ... northwest of'. And I don't believe that a German scholar of old ever went out into the field without a military compass. Tot ziens. Dierk ~`´~ ( o o ) -oOOOOOOo- Cunctine adestis, liberi? oooO Hic est Casparolus ( ) Oooo *g* ---\ (---( )- \_)) / (_/ For private reply, e-mail to Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
Re: orion-list Dating the Hebrew Bible; (sorry if it comes twice)
Walter cited Stern: From this combined evidence of both written documents and archaeological remains, it appears that, even before the arrival of the Assyrians, but mainly during and after their period of domination, THERE WAS GREEK PENETRATION INTO PALESTINE BY TRADERS AND MERCENARIES. NO DISCUSSION OF THIS PERIOD CAN IGNORE THEM, and in any case, their presence here seems to reflect somewhat more than the results of regular trade relations alone, as was suggested by J. Waldbaum. (p.227, Stern) Greek mercenaries in the Assyrian epoch? That's less probable, for the first certain reference to Greek mercenaries that we possess is in connection to Pharaoh Psammetich III. 525 BC. The total number of mercenaries from the Peloponnese in action at one time differs from roughly 1.000 in the 6th century up to 4.000 during the Peleponnesian War and the following decades of the 4th century, when many compelled through want of daily bread to serve as mercenaries, (Isocrates 4.167), so that the (exaggerated) Ten Thousand are reached in Xenophon's Anabasis. Consequently the focus of interest shifts in the main from Greek cities to Macedonia and to the Graeco-Macedonian kingdoms of the Hellenistic world, and to understand the change one must begin at the beginning, with Macedonia of Philip and Alexander. (Griffith_Mercenaries of the Hellenistic World_Ares 1935, p.7) Tot ziens. Dierk ~`´~ ( o o ) -oOOOOOOo- Cunctine adestis, liberi? oooO Hic est Casparolus ( ) Oooo *g* ---\ (---( )- \_)) / (_/ For private reply, e-mail to Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
Re: orion-list Pliny's map orientation? add-on
Bob wrote: (2) Not only does Pliny use infra (below) in his descriptions, but also supra (above). It would seem to me likely that these are related as geographical/topographical pointers. So what does Pliny mean when he locates Judaea supra Idumea and Samaria (NH 5.70)? He has just finished mentioning the mountains of Sebaste and Gamala in Samaria, so does he mean that Judaea in which he also mentions mountains, is at a generally higher altitude? Iuodaia is indeed above Idumaia and the Samareitis in the topographical sense. But different from the Jordan story the source here is probably a Jewish one. You have to go up to Jerusalem, understand? I'd assume, then, the library of Agrippa II, for the letter-friendship is known, I recall at least a passage somewhere in Hengel_Zealots_Edinburgh 1989/97. Tot ziens. Dierk ~`´~ ( o o ) -oOOOOOOo- Cunctine adestis, liberi? oooO Hic est Casparolus ( ) Oooo *g* ---\ (---( )- \_)) / (_/ For private reply, e-mail to Dierk van den Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
Re: orion-list Pliny's map orientation?
Interesting, Dierk, but it doesn't work for me. Pliny doesn't connect the two bodies of water in any sort of road-map manner, and he seems to be describing sites, not itineraries. (And I did say clockwise for these lakes, not counter-clockwise as with his Mediterranean coast route coming up from Egypt). In the larger context he also describes toparchies and other features. If it is a military map, it is a very full one. More likely several different sources doing different things. Do we have much information on ancient Roman mapping procedures? Is Pliny likely to have had access to maps in our sense of the word? His walls must have been lined with them! Regarding the Dead Sea locations, I don't understand what you are saying about Machaerus and Callirhoe (currently shown as less than half way down the east side of the Dead Sea) in relation to the other sites. Didn't the main north-south road go down the east side of the Dead Sea towards Petra? Granted that Pliny's source(s) might have mentioned Machaerus as the southeastern limit of the district of Judaea, how is it southerly from Arabia of the nomads? And how does he imagine getting from Machaerus to the land of the Esseni (and thence to Engedi and Masada)? How do you imagine it?! I think there is less here than meets the eye! And I think that infra simply means down(hill)! 'till later, Bob Bob, If Pliny used a Roman source (and i have no doubt), then it was a military report that describes the central section of ancient army route Damascus-Petra, here: Paneion army crossing-Daphne near Antiocheia (sounds familiar!) in the Semechonitis-Asor [a meridie (seen to the south) is Tarichea; ab oriente (from the east) are Iulias and Hippo and ab occidente (from the west) is Tiberias]-Philoteria-Skythopolis crossing. But instead to follow the route Jordan crossing near Jericho- Philadelpheia-Petra, the source remains on the western side of the Jordan and follows the by-road to the standard army route like Pompey in the Nabatean campaign 63 BC, ie Skythopolis crossing-Alexandreion-Jordan crossing near Jericho. Now the source leaves the parallel army route and enters the Jordan flats and faces the northern shore of the Dead Sea [ab oriente (from the east) nomad Arabia, ie `arabah of Peraia]. Now it takes a look to the south [and - quite correct - a meridie there is Machaerus and Callirhoe, logically ab occidente (from the west) the Esseni, infra hos [below them] is Engada, inde [from there] Masada. It follows exact the mentioned military route plus an additional cavalry trip to Masada and, thus, the course of the River Jordan incl. the Dea Sea. I didn't say that somebody took a canoe to collect the material! Your counter-clockwise orientation is, then, to be nullified. Tot ziens. Dierk -- Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html For private reply, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert Kraft) To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.
