Re: orion-list What Happened to the Watchers

2002-08-19 Thread Herbert Basser



moer likely the myth's explanation has to do with the term nefilim and 
their description in Genesis. more exegesis than history. where do you 
find history coded in myth in these literatures?

Herb Basser

 
 Boccaccini, on page 142 of BEYOND THE ESSENE HYPOTHESIS 
 mentions a text that I had not encountered before:
 
 Pages 141-142:
 In the Testaments the emphasis on human responsibility
 reaches a degree of intensity that was unknown in the previous
 Enochic tradition.  The document signals an epochal change in the
 interpretation of the sin of the Watchers.  Human beings are not
 mere victims of the angelic sin but jointly responsible.  The 
 blame shifts from angels to women.  They [women] charmed the
 Watchers, who were before the flood.  As they continued looking
 at the women, they were filled with desire ... for them.  They
 they were transformed into human males... Since the women's
 minds were filled with desire for these apparitions, they
 gave birth to giants (Testament of Reuben 5:6-7).
 
 The psychologization of the myth of the fallen angels denies
 the equation of impurity and evil that Jubiliees had established
 and the Qumran sectarians turned into one of the foundations
 of the doctrine of evil.
 
 [END OF CLIPS]
 
 So here we have the chain of events.  The fallen angels
 become human males.  They have giants as children.  The
 giants are killed, but the evil spirits of the fallen
 angels live on as immortal souls.
 
 In these discussion of the Watchers, I cannot help but 
 wonder how any ancient student of these ancient texts could
 have avoided linking the wicked Watchers with the
 wickedness of the Samaritans/Keepers/Watchers.  The
 New Testament appears to be a snapshot of Jewish bias against
 sinners people who are not gentile, but live north
 of Judah.  Couldn't this be a part of Jewish bias against
 Samaritans?  Centurions don't seem to excite nearly the
 same level of wrath that these sinners appear to.
 
 Boccaccini, at the front of the book, depicts a flow chart
 of the evolution of Jewish sectarianism on FIGURE 2. A MAP OF
 MIDDLE JUDAISMS.  On this chart, he shows Samaritanism as a
 4th century offshoot of Zadokite Judaism, while Enochic 
 Judaism is depicted emerging PARALLEL to Zadokite thought,
 and leading directly into Essene thought.
 
 In the book it is sometimes suggested that Enochian thought 
 had its source the obscure period in Persia, prior to the return.
 And yet, the only reference in the Old Testament that connects
 to a dissident form of priesthood opposed to the Zadokite views
 AND yet is still a part of the Jersusalem cultus is the reference
 by Ezekiel to the priestly faction that prays to the sun with
 its back to the Temple.
 
 This description precedes the deportation to Babylon, for the
 temple is still standing.  Who could this priestly faction
 have been?  I have suggested the Rechabites, since they were
 in Jerusalem before its destruction.  Suda ALSO suggests the
 Rechabites, for reasons unknown.  And in a completely independent
 thread, we see congruence between the Syrian cult of Shai al' Qaum
 and the Nabataean practices of avoiding wine, living in houses,
 and avoiding agriculture.
 
 In the Books of the Maccabees we find a close affinity between
 the Maccabean forces and the Nabateans.  In Josephus we find Banus
 who still avoids agriculture.  And in Deuteronomy we find an unsually
 kind view of Edomites, with other Old Testament references to the
 Edomites also having their promised covenants with Yahweh.
 
 While I can't pretend to have all the answers proved, I think
 there is more than enough here to suggest further investigation.
 
 George Brooks
 Tampa, FL
 

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Re: orion-list RE: Are Essens Jewish

2001-07-03 Thread Herbert Basser

George: There is reason-- it is true they are Jews by birth and not 
converts-- priests are also jews by birth and not converts-- josephus 
tells us that it would not be lawful for a priest to marry someone who was 
not from a noble family-- while pharisees accpeted converts readily, it 
may well be that saducees did not and that essenes did not

all that i'm pointing out is that Jews by birth need not mean their were 
others who were not jewish. or even as it would today-- they converted 
out of the faith-- to say-- well abie is a jew by birth-- today could 
mean-- but he no longer iodentifies as one,-- bit I dount that is 
josephus' meaning at all either. What does Paul mean by born under the 
law-- i mean the most plausible meaning and not the strange concoctioons 
gaston and some others have twisted it to mean.-- Does it not mean he was 
born a Jew-- did anyone doubt it-- 


herb basser
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Re: orion-list Pliny's Esseni

2001-06-24 Thread Herbert Basser

I never thought Philo lifted stuff from nick of damascus or any one. What 
evidence do we have he did such things. Philo sounds like philo 
throughout. Is this a guess, wishful thinking, or solid fact?


Herb basser, 
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Re: orion-list Pharisaic texts

2001-06-11 Thread herbert basser



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Re: orion-list Pharisaic texts

2001-06-11 Thread Herbert Basser

It appears my message got lost in cyber space so ill try again: pharisees 
had some written texts-- the books of the hebrew bible. these were found 
at qumran, they had possibly two other written texts, one a list of dates 
whne fasting was forbidden, another written in biblical hebrew style 
talking about the pharisees silence when a hasmonean was insulted 
(Josephus seems to have the same text). tHere is possibly another 
presevred in the liturgy. But pharisees were likely as antitext as were 
babylonian jurists. one would expect to find as many pharisaic texts as 
there are penguins in uraguay. and for the same reason


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Re: orion-list leaders-astray of Ephraim; ET CETERA

2001-04-25 Thread Herbert Basser

Osei cannot stand alone--its is a construct form that needs a noun after 
it. It is out of the range of feasibility that this word was used to name 
anything. Osei can you see or not?


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Re: orion-list More than enough

2000-12-15 Thread Herbert Basser

what does it take to show a text was written by an essene, what does it
take to show it wasn't? we need a document signed Joe the essene,
otherwise we will never know.

h
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