Re: live tracking without internet?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 3:14 PM, Poutnik  wrote:
> Using  analog repeaters would be very dumb thing to do and would not
> work well.
> There is no need of msg processing for the  digital repeaters, e.g. like
> in  the ethernet network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalstar#System_architecture

> Globalstar satellites are simple "bent pipe" analog repeaters, unlike Iridium.



Analog repeaters are used aboard spacecraft more than you might
imagine. Certainly in the early 2000s (and maybe even today, I've
moved on from the job of maintaining TV systems and haven't kept up)
the TV network distribution satellites were all analog repeaters.
They carried digital signals, but the bird didn't need to know that.
(At the time, one project I worked on was converting the system from
CCIR-601 to MPEG-2.)  Most of the 'security' came from the fact that
the uplinks in New York had extremely powerful transmitters (multiple
kilowatts in L band, at least hundreds of watts in Ku band) and could
simply outshout any would-be jammers.

I'm guessing that the system doesn't work that differently today -
some of the spacecraft that the people rented then are still in
service now - years past their projected operating life.
The system that the company I worked for used was maintained
by GE Americom - now SES S.A.

One advantage of analog is that you don't need to change anything on
the spacecraft in order to change protocol entirely.  The spacecraft
often outlast the transmission protocols (OK, IP is long lived, but
some of the application protocols on top of it are pretty volatile.)
Keeping them dumb can be smarter than you'd imagine.
In any case, most of the ones that I've worked with never demodulate
the signal. They just shift frequency or polarization and send it on
its way.

It might not be how you or I would design it, but it flies.

> The above does not say it does not use internet protocol suite from the
network layer above.

And, in fact, I was wrong in asserting that it's SMS; it's only
"SMS-like."  (I think I had SPOT confused with InReach.)
It's proprietary, but it's been pretty comprehensively
decoded and compromised; there's a Black Hat presentation
about it at
https://www.blackhat.com/docs/us-15/materials/us-15-Moore-Spread-Spectrum-Satcom-Hacking-Attacking-The-GlobalStar-Simplex-Data-Service.pdf
The last few slides are devoted to the packet format - this
is the link-layer packet, not any transport- or presentation-layer
protocol.

It really, truly is that simpleminded.

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[Poutnik]

Dne 25/02/2018 v 21:10 john whelan napsal(a):
> >SPOT satellite network probably does use the internet protocol suite
> and therefore does use an internet connection. :-) 
>
> Wow now thinking about it the Internet uses electrons so does that
> mean everything that uses electrons is part of the Internet?
>
> Generally speaking closed networks such as a Local Area Network are
> not considered to be part of the Internet although they may have
> gateways to other networks such as the Internet.
>
> The SPOT system is a self contained network with devices talking back
> via satellite to a server.  No Internet traffic is carried on this
> private network.  The server is connected to the Internet most
> probably through s firewall.
>
> Cheerio John

Generally speaking LANs are considered to be part of the Internet if
they have via routers/gateways connectivity  to the rest of internet.
Internet is  a connection of networks, and not all of it is public. The
fact a device does not have direct connectivity to other networks does
not necessarily mean it does not use internet connection.

The SPOT device uses internet connection to reach devices of the
tracking family.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Wanderer )

My Brouter profiles 
https://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles/wiki

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[Poutnik]

Dne 25/02/2018 v 21:04 Kevin Kenny napsal(a):
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Poutnik  wrote:
>> SPOT satellite network probably does use the internet protocol suite and
>> therefore does use an internet connection. :-)
> The satellite network consists of simple 'bent pipe' analog repeaters.
> There's no message processing aboard the spacecraft.
> The intelligence is all the "gateway" ground stations.
>
> The SPOT device doesn't do IP; it's got a fairly simpleminded
> (simplex transmit only) Qualcomm CDMA chipset. It does SMS
> only, and even in the fancier Globalstar devices that can exchange
> text messages, the text message is shorter than 140 characters
> because part of the message body is a NMEA $GPGLL or
> $GPRMC sentence.
>
> I bet that's more than you wanted to know. :-)
>
Using  analog repeaters would be very dumb thing to do and would not
work well.
There is no need of msg processing for the  digital repeaters, e.g. like
in  the ethernet network.

The above does not say it does not use internet protocol suite from the
network layer above.
CDMA is the link layer, similar as for the 3G phone connection.

-- 
Poutnik ( The Wanderer )

My Brouter profiles 
https://github.com/poutnikl/Brouter-profiles/wiki

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[john whelan]

>SPOT satellite network probably does use the internet protocol suite and
therefore does use an internet connection. :-)

Wow now thinking about it the Internet uses electrons so does that mean
everything that uses electrons is part of the Internet?

Generally speaking closed networks such as a Local Area Network are not
considered to be part of the Internet although they may have gateways to
other networks such as the Internet.

The SPOT system is a self contained network with devices talking back via
satellite to a server.  No Internet traffic is carried on this private
network.  The server is connected to the Internet most probably through s
firewall.

Cheerio John

On 25 Feb 2018 2:50 pm, "Poutnik" <poutnik4n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> SPOT satellite network probably does use the internet protocol suite and
> therefore does use an internet connection. :-)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPOT_Satellite_Messenger
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite
>
> Dne neděle 25. února 2018 14:37:21 UTC+1 john whelan napsal(a):
>>
>> SPOT will do it and uses satellite so doesn't need any local
>> communication network.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 25 February 2018 at 05:32, Poutnik the Wanderer <poutni...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Live tracking without internet connection is IMHO possible only as
>>> police-like phone tracking via cell tower location and tower signal
>>> strength . In rare tower region as rural Mongolia it may be very
>>> inaccurate. I am not sure about legal any technical availability of the
>>> solution.Also, I am not sure if such tracking is possible across many
>>> countries and if the target country must legally and technically support it.
>>>
>>> Dne 25. února 2018 9:07:10 Stojan Gajic <stoja...@gmail.com> napsal:
>>>
>>>> .internet caffes? Not so many, honestly, few of them. More likely
>>>> 'hotels' where we will sleep. I was just interested if the Osmand app could
>>>> give me the option of live tracking for my family while I'm away so I could
>>>> have 3 in one device: phone, GPS and live tracking. I would have to carry
>>>> less stuff and less things to charge.
>>>> If there is no possibility of ive tracking for Osmand than nothing.
>>>> will carry my SPOT
>>>>
>>>> sg
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 2:19:16 PM UTC+1, john whelan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Your options are internet cafes and use a wifi connection to call
>>>>> home.  You can send your position from your GPS but you'll need to work 
>>>>> out
>>>>> how to how it.  Are there any Internet cafes in the area you are
>>>>> travelling.  OpenStreetMap has many of them but it does not include them
>>>>> all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Conventional cell phone if there is coverage.  SMS text messaging
>>>>> could be used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or Satellite probably either SPOT or Yellow brick.  Yellow brick would
>>>>> give you messaging as well but Satellite today is much more expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.ybtracking.com/shop
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheerio John
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 05:27, Stojan Gajic <stoja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I know the option for the emergency (SPOT) but what I need is just
>>>>>> live tracking my route for the others from home while I'm away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 1:21:44 AM UTC+1, Bart Eisenberg
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SPOT is an example of a satellite emergency notification device
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_emergency_notification_device>.
>>>>>>> (My buddy and I use one when backpacking so that our wives can see 
>>>>>>> roughly
>>>>>>> where we are.)  I don't know of an Android phone, which you'd need to 
>>>>>>> run
>>>>>>> OsmAnd, that doubles as a SEND.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-8, Stojan Gajic
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in
>>>>>>>> Mongolia and I didn't understand

Re: live tracking without internet?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Poutnik  wrote:
> SPOT satellite network probably does use the internet protocol suite and
> therefore does use an internet connection. :-)

The satellite network consists of simple 'bent pipe' analog repeaters.
There's no message processing aboard the spacecraft.
The intelligence is all the "gateway" ground stations.

The SPOT device doesn't do IP; it's got a fairly simpleminded
(simplex transmit only) Qualcomm CDMA chipset. It does SMS
only, and even in the fancier Globalstar devices that can exchange
text messages, the text message is shorter than 140 characters
because part of the message body is a NMEA $GPGLL or
$GPRMC sentence.

I bet that's more than you wanted to know. :-)

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[Poutnik]

SPOT satellite network probably does use the internet protocol suite and 
therefore does use an internet connection. :-) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPOT_Satellite_Messenger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite

Dne neděle 25. února 2018 14:37:21 UTC+1 john whelan napsal(a):
>
> SPOT will do it and uses satellite so doesn't need any local communication 
> network.
>
> Cheerio John 
>
> On 25 February 2018 at 05:32, Poutnik the Wanderer <poutni...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> Live tracking without internet connection is IMHO possible only as 
>> police-like phone tracking via cell tower location and tower signal 
>> strength . In rare tower region as rural Mongolia it may be very 
>> inaccurate. I am not sure about legal any technical availability of the 
>> solution.Also, I am not sure if such tracking is possible across many 
>> countries and if the target country must legally and technically support it.
>>
>> Dne 25. února 2018 9:07:10 Stojan Gajic <stoja...@gmail.com > 
>> napsal:
>>
>>> .internet caffes? Not so many, honestly, few of them. More likely 
>>> 'hotels' where we will sleep. I was just interested if the Osmand app could 
>>> give me the option of live tracking for my family while I'm away so I could 
>>> have 3 in one device: phone, GPS and live tracking. I would have to carry 
>>> less stuff and less things to charge. 
>>> If there is no possibility of ive tracking for Osmand than nothing. will 
>>> carry my SPOT
>>>
>>> sg
>>>
>>> On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 2:19:16 PM UTC+1, john whelan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Your options are internet cafes and use a wifi connection to call 
>>>> home.  You can send your position from your GPS but you'll need to work 
>>>> out 
>>>> how to how it.  Are there any Internet cafes in the area you are 
>>>> travelling.  OpenStreetMap has many of them but it does not include them 
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> Conventional cell phone if there is coverage.  SMS text messaging could 
>>>> be used.
>>>>
>>>> Or Satellite probably either SPOT or Yellow brick.  Yellow brick would 
>>>> give you messaging as well but Satellite today is much more expensive. 
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ybtracking.com/shop
>>>>
>>>> Cheerio John
>>>>
>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 05:27, Stojan Gajic <stoja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I know the option for the emergency (SPOT) but what I need is just 
>>>>> live tracking my route for the others from home while I'm away.
>>>>>
>>>>> sg
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 1:21:44 AM UTC+1, Bart Eisenberg 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SPOT is an example of a satellite emergency notification device 
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_emergency_notification_device>. 
>>>>>> (My buddy and I use one when backpacking so that our wives can see 
>>>>>> roughly 
>>>>>> where we are.)  I don't know of an Android phone, which you'd need to 
>>>>>> run 
>>>>>> OsmAnd, that doubles as a SEND.  
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-8, Stojan Gajic wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in 
>>>>>>> Mongolia and I didn't understand if they would be able to live track me 
>>>>>>> from home.
>>>>>>> Thank you for your answer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
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>>>>> Groups "Osmand" group.
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>>>>> an email to osmand+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>
>>>>
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>

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[john whelan]

SPOT will do it and uses satellite so doesn't need any local communication
network.

Cheerio John

On 25 February 2018 at 05:32, Poutnik the Wanderer <poutnik4n...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Live tracking without internet connection is IMHO possible only as
> police-like phone tracking via cell tower location and tower signal
> strength . In rare tower region as rural Mongolia it may be very
> inaccurate. I am not sure about legal any technical availability of the
> solution.Also, I am not sure if such tracking is possible across many
> countries and if the target country must legally and technically support it.
>
> Dne 25. února 2018 9:07:10 Stojan Gajic <stojanga...@gmail.com> napsal:
>
>> .internet caffes? Not so many, honestly, few of them. More likely
>> 'hotels' where we will sleep. I was just interested if the Osmand app could
>> give me the option of live tracking for my family while I'm away so I could
>> have 3 in one device: phone, GPS and live tracking. I would have to carry
>> less stuff and less things to charge.
>> If there is no possibility of ive tracking for Osmand than nothing. will
>> carry my SPOT
>>
>> sg
>>
>> On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 2:19:16 PM UTC+1, john whelan wrote:
>>>
>>> Your options are internet cafes and use a wifi connection to call home.
>>> You can send your position from your GPS but you'll need to work out how to
>>> how it.  Are there any Internet cafes in the area you are travelling.
>>> OpenStreetMap has many of them but it does not include them all.
>>>
>>> Conventional cell phone if there is coverage.  SMS text messaging could
>>> be used.
>>>
>>> Or Satellite probably either SPOT or Yellow brick.  Yellow brick would
>>> give you messaging as well but Satellite today is much more expensive.
>>>
>>> https://www.ybtracking.com/shop
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On 24 February 2018 at 05:27, Stojan Gajic <stoja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know the option for the emergency (SPOT) but what I need is just live
>>>> tracking my route for the others from home while I'm away.
>>>>
>>>> sg
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 1:21:44 AM UTC+1, Bart Eisenberg
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> SPOT is an example of a satellite emergency notification device
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_emergency_notification_device>.
>>>>> (My buddy and I use one when backpacking so that our wives can see roughly
>>>>> where we are.)  I don't know of an Android phone, which you'd need to run
>>>>> OsmAnd, that doubles as a SEND.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-8, Stojan Gajic wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in
>>>>>> Mongolia and I didn't understand if they would be able to live track me
>>>>>> from home.
>>>>>> Thank you for your answer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sg
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>> Groups "Osmand" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to osmand+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
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Re: live tracking without internet?

[Poutnik the Wanderer]

Live tracking without internet connection is IMHO possible only as 
police-like phone tracking via cell tower location and tower signal 
strength . In rare tower region as rural Mongolia it may be very 
inaccurate. I am not sure about legal any technical availability of the 
solution.Also, I am not sure if such tracking is possible across many 
countries and if the target country must legally and technically support it.



Dne 25. února 2018 9:07:10 Stojan Gajic <stojanga...@gmail.com> napsal:


.internet caffes? Not so many, honestly, few of them. More likely 'hotels'
where we will sleep. I was just interested if the Osmand app could give me
the option of live tracking for my family while I'm away so I could have 3
in one device: phone, GPS and live tracking. I would have to carry less
stuff and less things to charge.
If there is no possibility of ive tracking for Osmand than nothing. will
carry my SPOT

sg

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 2:19:16 PM UTC+1, john whelan wrote:


Your options are internet cafes and use a wifi connection to call home.
You can send your position from your GPS but you'll need to work out how to
how it.  Are there any Internet cafes in the area you are travelling.
OpenStreetMap has many of them but it does not include them all.

Conventional cell phone if there is coverage.  SMS text messaging could be
used.

Or Satellite probably either SPOT or Yellow brick.  Yellow brick would
give you messaging as well but Satellite today is much more expensive.

https://www.ybtracking.com/shop

Cheerio John

On 24 February 2018 at 05:27, Stojan Gajic <stoja...@gmail.com
> wrote:


I know the option for the emergency (SPOT) but what I need is just live
tracking my route for the others from home while I'm away.

sg

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 1:21:44 AM UTC+1, Bart Eisenberg wrote:


SPOT is an example of a satellite emergency notification device
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_emergency_notification_device>.
(My buddy and I use one when backpacking so that our wives can see roughly
where we are.)  I don't know of an Android phone, which you'd need to run
OsmAnd, that doubles as a SEND.

On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-8, Stojan Gajic wrote:


Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in
Mongolia and I didn't understand if they would be able to live track me
from home.
Thank you for your answer

sg


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Re: live tracking without internet?

[john whelan]

Your options are internet cafes and use a wifi connection to call home.
You can send your position from your GPS but you'll need to work out how to
how it.  Are there any Internet cafes in the area you are travelling.
OpenStreetMap has many of them but it does not include them all.

Conventional cell phone if there is coverage.  SMS text messaging could be
used.

Or Satellite probably either SPOT or Yellow brick.  Yellow brick would give
you messaging as well but Satellite today is much more expensive.

https://www.ybtracking.com/shop

Cheerio John

On 24 February 2018 at 05:27, Stojan Gajic  wrote:

> I know the option for the emergency (SPOT) but what I need is just live
> tracking my route for the others from home while I'm away.
>
> sg
>
> On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 1:21:44 AM UTC+1, Bart Eisenberg wrote:
>>
>> SPOT is an example of a satellite emergency notification device
>> .
>> (My buddy and I use one when backpacking so that our wives can see roughly
>> where we are.)  I don't know of an Android phone, which you'd need to run
>> OsmAnd, that doubles as a SEND.
>>
>> On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-8, Stojan Gajic wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in
>>> Mongolia and I didn't understand if they would be able to live track me
>>> from home.
>>> Thank you for your answer
>>>
>>> sg
>>>
>> --
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Re: live tracking without internet?

[Stojan Gajic]

I know the option for the emergency (SPOT) but what I need is just live 
tracking my route for the others from home while I'm away.

sg

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 1:21:44 AM UTC+1, Bart Eisenberg wrote:
>
> SPOT is an example of a satellite emergency notification device 
> . 
> (My buddy and I use one when backpacking so that our wives can see roughly 
> where we are.)  I don't know of an Android phone, which you'd need to run 
> OsmAnd, that doubles as a SEND.  
>
> On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-8, Stojan Gajic wrote:
>>
>> Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in Mongolia 
>> and I didn't understand if they would be able to live track me from home.
>> Thank you for your answer
>>
>> sg
>>
>

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[Bart Eisenberg]

SPOT is an example of a satellite emergency notification device 
. 
(My buddy and I use one when backpacking so that our wives can see roughly 
where we are.)  I don't know of an Android phone, which you'd need to run 
OsmAnd, that doubles as a SEND.  

On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-8, Stojan Gajic wrote:
>
> Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in Mongolia 
> and I didn't understand if they would be able to live track me from home.
> Thank you for your answer
>
> sg
>

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[Stojan Gajic]

Yes, they will be in Europe and I will be riding my motorbike in Mongolia 
and I didn't understand if they would be able to live track me from home.
Thank you for your answer

sg

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Re: live tracking without internet?

[john whelan]

Where are your families?  If they are some distance from you you will need
some sort of connection.

Cheerio John

On 23 February 2018 at 13:10, Stojan Gajic  wrote:

> Sorry guys,
> maybe it's a stupid question but for me it's still not clear if our
> families can follow us on live tracking (real time) if we haven't got the
> internet connection but just using the GPS? Something like the SPOT
> Thx
>
> sg
>
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live tracking without internet?

[Stojan Gajic]

Sorry guys, 
maybe it's a stupid question but for me it's still not clear if our 
families can follow us on live tracking (real time) if we haven't got the 
internet connection but just using the GPS? Something like the SPOT
Thx

sg

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