RE: More on cross-platform development
Greg,Have you looked at something like DXTreme from DevExpress? Might not be suitable for your existing applications - but I have been looking at it for some future work.Whether it works to a sufficient level or not is unclear, but I like the idea behind it.Agree with Ian around dumb-down approaches on the 'simpler' environments.Rob- Original Message - From: Ian Thomas [mailto:il.tho...@iinet.net.au] To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Sent: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:00:39 +0800 Subject: RE: More on cross-platform development GregA recent experience with a simple Android application (tablet) was that much of the real grunt work has to be done on Windows (it could be another desktop application), and the inter-communication between the platforms becomes important. Depending on the immediacy required, ?The Cloud? can be useful. In my case, the Android application was a relatively simple (and touch-oriented) data collection thing, but the data collation, organization, visualization etc does require the larger screen and more capable coding. It would be horrible to have those functions trivialized to touch simplicity, yet having to be as capable as a desktop application can be. I shudder to think that ?consumer / user demand? will drive complex applications to less-than-capable environments. I don?t think it will happen. I guess there is a place for a ?TV and Celebrity iPad app? that surveys the IMDb website and screen-scrapes it for the most popular movies in the USA this week (and other trivial information), but personally I would rather look at the IMDb website itself and absorb its information in a less superficial fashion. As a side issue, isn?t Silverlight out the door now? Ian ThomasVictoria Park, Western AustraliaFrom: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg KeoghSent: Friday, January 04, 2013 11:30 AMTo: ozDotNetSubject: More on cross-platform developmentA few months ago I posted a question in here for general advice about cross-platform development for Windows, Android, iPad and iPhone. I asked on behalf of a colleague who has a mature sophisticated Windows desktop app and a simplified Silverlight 4 version. The same chap rang me yesterday in a bit of a panic as his marketing guys are now getting pressured about versions of the app on various phones and tablets. Based upon the earlier replies from here and what my friend has been studying it looks like cross-platform development is getting steadily more complicated. I'd like to throw our current impressions out and see if I'm on the right track...In summary, it looks like we use HTML5 to share a codebase, or we go native on each device.The former means that the apps will be crippled because HTML5 just can't reproduce the rich UI of GDI/WPF or Silverlight, and we'd need staff with a totally new skillset. The latter means multiple teams with different code and specialist skillsets, which is potentially very complex and expensive.Apple have banned VMs and interpreters from theirOSs (or is it simply browser plugins?), rumour has it to kill off Flash, but .NET and Silverlight seem to be collateral casualties. Is it true that Silverlight has no hope in the Apple world?I fear that the Silverlight version of our app is doomed to die at an early age because it can only be seen in the ever-shrinking world of the desktop web browser. Years of Silverlight development may be wasted.Not only is there coding confusion about using ObjectC, Java, C#, HTML/_javascript_, etc, there are marketing problems about the functionality of the apps on different devices. The Windows desktop app is very sophisticated, but the versions for phones and tablets would have to be seriously dumbed-down to be touch friendly. Even the Metro version would be utterly incapable of expressing the full app functionality. We now have the nightmare of managing not only different codebases and developer teams, but mutiple versions of the app withvarious functionality.Anyway, you get the idea. There must be other people in here who are going through this multi-platform conundrum in the new phone and tablet world. What ever happened to the promise that software development would get easier as languages and platforms converged? Remember the promise that VMs like Java and .NET would make our lives easier? It looks like different huge companies have betrayed us and are forcing us to use their platforms for their own greedy profit. That leaves the developers and the marketing people bewildered without a clear path, and it's happening around me now.Greg
Re: More on cross-platform development
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: The former means that the apps will be crippled because HTML5 just can't reproduce the rich UI of GDI/WPF or Silverlight, Depends on the rendering engine. Throw this in Chrome: http://www.htmlfivewow.com/slide1, my jaw dropped at this: http://www.htmlfivewow.com/slide52 That aside, check out Xamarin.com (god I love these guys - is there nothing they cannot do?) I fear that the Silverlight version of our app is doomed to die at an early age because it can only be seen in the ever-shrinking world of the desktop web browser. Years of Silverlight development may be wasted. Silverlight always was a lame duck that wanted to be Flash for no other reason than Flash was everywhere. Not only is there coding confusion about using ObjectC, Java, C#, HTML/Javascript, etc, there are marketing problems about the functionality of the apps on different devices. The Windows desktop app is very sophisticated, but the versions for phones and tablets would have to be seriously dumbed-down to be touch friendly. Even the Metro version would be utterly incapable of expressing the full app functionality. We now have the nightmare of managing not only different codebases and developer teams, but mutiple versions of the app with various functionality. One man's dumbed down is another's optimised for specific scenarios. There isn't anything inherently evil or bad in offering a subset of functionality on the go *if it is the subset people actually need*. Anyway, you get the idea. There must be other people in here who are going through this multi-platform conundrum in the new phone and tablet world. What ever happened to the promise that software development would get easier as languages and platforms converged? Remember the promise that VMs like Java and .NET would make our lives easier? It looks like different huge companies have betrayed us and are forcing us to use their platforms for their own greedy profit. Well, Java is shit slow and does a great job of providing uniformly garbage experiences across platforms. MS has never been very good at cross-platform. .NET's cross-platformness died when they started building the framework out of thin wrappers around pre-existing WIn32/COM IP. On the plus side, there are companies of pure genius out there making stuff like Xamarin, Phonegap etc. Reading between the lines - it sounds like Xamarin is what you are after. That leaves the developers and the marketing people bewildered without a clear path, and it's happening around me now. You would have to post some more detail on what the app does. Unless there are specific and compelling reasons (i.e. needs GPU shaders, camera and stuff) I would do the whole thing web based. -- David Connors da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363 Download my v-card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Follow me on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/davidconnors Connect with me on LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors
Re: More on cross-platform development
I think David is on the money Greg. Have a look at http://blog.xamarin.com/eight-reasons-c-sharp-is-the-best-language-for-mobile-development/ if you're interested in Xamarin's view of the cross platform space and C# / .NET's fit. Brenden On 4 January 2013 14:11, David Connors da...@connors.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: The former means that the apps will be crippled because HTML5 just can't reproduce the rich UI of GDI/WPF or Silverlight, Depends on the rendering engine. Throw this in Chrome: http://www.htmlfivewow.com/slide1, my jaw dropped at this: http://www.htmlfivewow.com/slide52 That aside, check out Xamarin.com (god I love these guys - is there nothing they cannot do?) I fear that the Silverlight version of our app is doomed to die at an early age because it can only be seen in the ever-shrinking world of the desktop web browser. Years of Silverlight development may be wasted. Silverlight always was a lame duck that wanted to be Flash for no other reason than Flash was everywhere. Not only is there coding confusion about using ObjectC, Java, C#, HTML/Javascript, etc, there are marketing problems about the functionality of the apps on different devices. The Windows desktop app is very sophisticated, but the versions for phones and tablets would have to be seriously dumbed-down to be touch friendly. Even the Metro version would be utterly incapable of expressing the full app functionality. We now have the nightmare of managing not only different codebases and developer teams, but mutiple versions of the app with various functionality. One man's dumbed down is another's optimised for specific scenarios. There isn't anything inherently evil or bad in offering a subset of functionality on the go *if it is the subset people actually need*. Anyway, you get the idea. There must be other people in here who are going through this multi-platform conundrum in the new phone and tablet world. What ever happened to the promise that software development would get easier as languages and platforms converged? Remember the promise that VMs like Java and .NET would make our lives easier? It looks like different huge companies have betrayed us and are forcing us to use their platforms for their own greedy profit. Well, Java is shit slow and does a great job of providing uniformly garbage experiences across platforms. MS has never been very good at cross-platform. .NET's cross-platformness died when they started building the framework out of thin wrappers around pre-existing WIn32/COM IP. On the plus side, there are companies of pure genius out there making stuff like Xamarin, Phonegap etc. Reading between the lines - it sounds like Xamarin is what you are after. That leaves the developers and the marketing people bewildered without a clear path, and it's happening around me now. You would have to post some more detail on what the app does. Unless there are specific and compelling reasons (i.e. needs GPU shaders, camera and stuff) I would do the whole thing web based. -- David Connors da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363 Download my v-card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Follow me on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/davidconnors Connect with me on LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors
Re: More on cross-platform development
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 3:15 PM, BC brendencono...@gmail.com wrote: I think David is on the money Greg. Have a look at http://blog.xamarin.com/eight-reasons-c-sharp-is-the-best-language-for-mobile-development/ if you're interested in Xamarin's view of the cross platform space and C# / .NET's fit. Imagine where .NET would be today if MS had executed on cross platform the way Xamarin do. -- David Connors da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363 Download my v-card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Follow me on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/davidconnors Connect with me on LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors
Re: More on cross-platform development
I would love if MS bought Xamarin and created a first class .NET tool for developing Mobile and cross platform apps. The only problem I can see is that Apple and Google would try and block it. Imagine where .NET would be today if MS had executed on cross platform the way Xamarin do.
Re: More on cross-platform development
I'm not quite sure I follow Craig - what is missing from Xamarin's toolset that MS may add? From my experience (admittedly not exhaustive), Xamarin already have a first class toolkit for cross platform mobile and desktop apps. Web's not quite where I'd like it to be, but with HTML5 / CSS3 etc it's not a big deal. Xamarin and Mono are now native for Windows, Mac, Linux, BSD varieties, iOS and Android. Not trying to be facetious by the way, genuinely interested in what you feel is missing. Brenden On 4 January 2013 14:49, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.com wrote: I would love if MS bought Xamarin and created a first class .NET tool for developing Mobile and cross platform apps. The only problem I can see is that Apple and Google would try and block it. Imagine where .NET would be today if MS had executed on cross platform the way Xamarin do.
Re: More on cross-platform development
Thank chaps, I've forwarded the bodies of your replies to my colleague. Ian, I'm certainly aftraid that consumer demand for apps on mobile devices will result in a dumb versions of sophisticatd applications and will probably require developing parallel apps. I have some Windows WinForms and WPF apps out live now that have complex UIs and comprehensive functionality, and I have no idea on earth how these apps could be ported to mobile devices, let alone to Metro style on Win8. It would be like trying to squeeze a 747 into a Cessna. Even if most of the functionality was converted, the Metro UI would be so jammed with gestures and charms and navigation that you'd get lost, despite the claims that such apps are easier to use. However, I'm saying this without any experience in writing a serious Metro app yet. We have vague plans to write a mini experimental version of one of our apps in Java or C# for Android, but by the very nature of the device the UI functionality would be vastly reduced and simplified. However it would still be useful for people on the road but it could never replace the desktop app. David, the HTML5 showcase is impressive, but I had to install Chrome in a VM to see it, and I'm not even sure what I'm looking at. Is it yet another framework extending Javascript? Or am I looking at vanilla HTML5? Oh lord, I don't want to be become a Javascript boffin if I can help it, but I suppose it's that or try to live on Macklin's $35 a day. Xamarin looks too good to be true. I'll have to read more fine print. It seems to contradict much of what I said about .NET and C# being useless on different devices. This xamarin listhttp://blog.xamarin.com/eight-reasons-c-sharp-is-the-best-language-for-mobile-developmentalso seems too good to be true, but it gives some hints about how it works. Some study to do. Anyway, thanks again. Perhaps I'm not feeling so hopeless now, and since it's Friday pm perhaps I can drink myself happy. Cheers, Greg On 4 January 2013 15:58, BC brendencono...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not quite sure I follow Craig - what is missing from Xamarin's toolset that MS may add? From my experience (admittedly not exhaustive), Xamarin already have a first class toolkit for cross platform mobile and desktop apps. Web's not quite where I'd like it to be, but with HTML5 / CSS3 etc it's not a big deal. Xamarin and Mono are now native for Windows, Mac, Linux, BSD varieties, iOS and Android. Not trying to be facetious by the way, genuinely interested in what you feel is missing. Brenden On 4 January 2013 14:49, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.com wrote: I would love if MS bought Xamarin and created a first class .NET tool for developing Mobile and cross platform apps. The only problem I can see is that Apple and Google would try and block it. Imagine where .NET would be today if MS had executed on cross platform the way Xamarin do.
Re: More on cross-platform development
I don't think you should try and port complex business applications to a phone, but specific features suit a phone. For example I sell a Beauty Salon specific Point of Sale SAAS package. Will I could never imagine anyone trying to run their whole business from it, my users are crying out for a mobile app that will allow them to take appointments while on the road or at home (I am currently building this). Ian, I'm certainly aftraid that consumer demand for apps on mobile devices will result in a dumb versions of sophisticatd applications and will probably require developing parallel apps. I have some Windows WinForms and WPF apps out live now that have complex UIs and comprehensive functionality, and I have no idea on earth how these apps could be ported to mobile devices, let alone to Metro style on Win8.
