PhD, medicalization of childbirth
I wanted to thank everyone for their comments. I am new at this listserv option- so I ended up sending my remarks to individuals rather than to the list. Your comments were great- even those who did not agree with my research. I value your comments and your experiences. Maybe my comment to one of the individuals from your list will help clarify my standpoint. Good question- what do I mean about the desire- I base this on two things. One being a surprisingly large amount of women, within countries such as America and Australia, who are requesting or demanding procedures such as caesarean sections. There have been numerous reports of this within Australian and American media. Mid last year I read an article which describes a pregnancy phobia- a fear of giving birth- they even labelled it tokophobia . This relates back to what I mention above- a request for medical intervention. It seems that, at least in regards to the women interviewed, there is a decreasing amount of trust in ones own body. These women fear birth, they fear the pain and they fear the possible consequences of a vaginal birth (the cosmetic purposes). We have to question where this fear stems from and the subsequent desire for medical intervention. Of course this article was only in the mainstream magazine She. However, we should realize the impact on this type of publication for a mainstream audience. I do not seriously believe that all women desire medical intervention. However, I do believe that in the vast majority of cases, birth within Australia occurs within the medicalised birth paradigm. Even with woman who choose a natural birth- these women are seen as not complying with the norm- the norm being the medicalised birth. Alphia Garrety (Ba. Hons.) PhD. Candidate School of Sociology and Justice Studies Bankstown Campus, University of Western Sydney UWS Locked Bag 1797 South Penrith Distribution Centre NSW 1797 Australia Phone: 02 97726628 Fax: 02 97726584 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: A Breaktrhough in the ACT
Dear Barb Justine, Many congrats on the breakthrough! Hopefully your meeting implementation will go well. Keep up to good work! Jen BMid student, Melbourne --- Vernon at Stringybark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear all, For those of you who have not already heard the news - a breakthrough in the ACT happened last Wed. Maternity Coalition has secured a meeting with the ACT Health minister to discuss development and implementation of this proposal, but for a few days at least, we're enjoying the fruits of 8 months of hard lobbying. regards Barb Vernon and Justine Caines. __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
formula factory
No Marina - I have never even been to Austria -who is she? I was born in New Zealand though. Pinky
Re: monitoring at 41+ weeks
If travelling for the CTG is the problem, why not put her on a kick chart so she can monitor the baby herself??.. It is a really effective way to monitor the baby's wellbeing by the "expert"..the mum. She WILL know when things aren't right. Re "DUE" dates, well we have just had a discussion on the list about the innacuracy of Naegles rule. Last year I had a woman 37 wks gest. who was planning a homebirth. She rang me to tell me she was concerned about the baby's movements. I put her on a kick chart Tuesday and all was wll until thursday when the baby slowed down consideraably. She didn't tell me until Friday when I visited for a routine A/N checkup, she greeted me at the door in tears telling me that the baby was NOT alright. I took one look at the kick chart and saw a marked drop off in movements over 24hrs. After going for a CTG, U/S finding a sinosoidal pattern, she was having an emergency C/S at 5pm. Baby had a Hb of 30.After a small blood transfusion she was fine.I guess all it illustrates that the movements tell us if baby is o.k provided we watch them carefully listen to the mother. cheers, MM
RE: Formula factory
Well, today I approached the head of science department, armed with a photocopy of page 270 from G Palmers book, The politics of b/f. It talks about the specific company in question (I didnt think about the code). I decided to keep it simple because I didnt want to be fobbed off as a loony! I said to him, "Re the inservice and factory tours, I dont think its a good idea to tour meiji. There are terrible health and social risks associated with formula feeding. Health professionals go out of their way to advocate b/f, and as scientists, I think we should too. I believe that taking students to meiji could contribute to imbalanced decisions about future infant feeding choices." He said "Yeah well we probably wouldnt be allowed in there anyway." I gave him the bit of paper and left it at that. If it comes up that they do decide to do a tour of meiji, I will approach him again with the WHO code and some other facts, and if that doesnt work I will try the principal or Dep of Edu, Emp and Training. Sound like a good plan? Even if I just get to have my say, I'll be happy.
Formula factory
Well done Macha, Pinky
Re: Launch of www.birthjourney
Dear Lois: A truly lovely site. What an inspiration. Marilyn
Re: NCAD 'C-Scape' 2002
Wow, Jo I think this is wonderful. I think this is the kind of exposure that women need. I hope you all didn't think in my comment about informative videos on c/s that I think women should be scared out of having them. I really don't think the surgery should be minimised, however I think it is a truly difficult though significant task to educate women thoroughly on the matter. Looks like "C-Scape 2002" is a step in the right direction. marilyn
Re: 'educated' women
Dear Debbie - I was saddened to read your posting but also so pleased you turned your experience into a positive learning one for yourself and others, as you shared with this list. Some years ago I had to do an assignment for uniwhere we had to choose a group of disadvantaged women and prepare a resource package for them, to make available for them in order to "maximise" their chances of a good birth (that means so many things to different people doesn't it?). Anyway, I chose privately insured women as a disadvantaged group andbased my arguments on the high operative outcomes, that cannot be explained away by 'risk', and strengthened that argument using the way in which , and what information is provided to women by obstetricians (as women with Private Health insurance would get the majority of their information from their ob with that ever pervasive medical perspective). I would love to talk to you more about this if you would be willing. Also I do agree that we (in Oz) need, as you say, some leaflets like the informed choice leaflets thatare available in the UK. However, I was looking through them againh, the other day, and thinking that there are still some of the brochures which subtly (and some not-so-subtly) lead a woman 'that' way, and lead them away from listening to, believing in and acting on theirown bodily knowledgeand what it tells them at this time. Just my two cents worth - regards, Lynne - Original Message - From: Debby M To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: Re: 'educated' women I consider myself an educated woman. Two degrees and post graduate studies would certainly indicate such however it is only since the birth of my first child that I came to realise how difficult it is for a medical lay person to obtain information that truely allows them to make an informed choice. My first birth was the classic cascade of intervention leading to a csec and I was led down that path by my obstetrician. It wasn't until some months after the birth and a lot of reading, that I discovered there were many many aspects of the decisions made by myself that were far from informed. On almost every aspect related to my "care" my obstetrician presented me with advice and information that could only lead me to conclude and agree that his advice for the recommended intervention was right. I later found there were a whole range of risks and options that I was not told about and on one piece of intervention he actually out and out lied to me. I can only presume that he thought he was doing the right thing, but I also get the feeling that often we, the woman, are only told what our carer wants us to hear. Whilst we may think we are informed at the time it is not until we get our noses into some good medical research papers and text books that we discover how much wider the risks and options are. This in itself presents a couple of problems. The first being time, and what do you teach women? There is obviously a lot to learn or obstetric and midwifery training wouldn't take so long. Some of the concepts I have read about I have had to bounce of my husband (a radiographer) to fully grasp what is being discussed and its implications, indicating that those with a lesser education than I may have even more difficulty in grasping some of the risks or benefits of different ideas related to labour management. I am very pro informing the woman. I think one of the best ways this could be done would be to have a series of little brochures that talk in simplified terms that most women could understand what the causes, treatments and consequences of the myriad of birth related problems and procedures are, eg. Understanding Fetal Distress 1. Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here-- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Information
Hi there Ladies, I've been laying low on this list but soaking up all of the wonderful information that you share. I currently work in Singapore as a Doula and am studying to be a Childbirth Educator. I was wanting to hear from anyone out there who can give me some information on the Bachelor of Midwifery degree. I understand that UTS offers this and that they only take a certain amount of entries per year. Is anyone currently doing this degree? What is the criteria to gain entry like? What is the workload like? Any mature aged students out there? I'm 35. As I am currently in Singapore I don't intend to stay here forever but wanted to start researching possible options for me upon my return to Sydney. Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated Thank you Tania Grose-Hodge Singapore.
Re: PhD research on the medicalization of pregnancy and childbirth
Title: Re: PhD research on the medicalization of pregnancy and childbirth Certainly my experience research on the far north coast of NSW is that many women want both - midwives MOs. Mostly, I believe, because of incorrect, ill informed hype that an MO is needed for birthing. We need to be really vigilant proactive in informing communities the mediaabout just what midwives can do autonomously! Especially as the time may well be ripe for change with the PI insurance issues that are occurring at the moment. Liz McCall - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 9:44 PM Subject: Re: PhD research on the medicalization of pregnancy and childbirth These are not necessarily ignorant women either, they are educated, articulate women.Monica and allI understand what you mean that women screaming the loudest for the epidural have high levels of education in a general sense (ie high school, uni etc). What is missing is unbiased information and support about birth.As we all know there has been a 70% increase in the number of preventable maternal deaths (with C/S a major factor). Yet still out there so very many women believe C/S to be the safer option (I know a woman who elected a C/S so as not to get burst facial capilaries from pushing!! - does this even happen??) and yet she went hysterical when her husband sprayed fly spray in an adjacent room when she was pregnant! Her education, post graduate level; her information education and support around birth, mainstream fear and control and down right lies about the safety of her choice.As a post graduate educated woman I am seemingly part of a very small (yet lovely) clique of women that believe in their bodies and babies to get on with it and birth beautifully. So until the truth gets out (and I know lots of us continue to put it there) women are NOT really educated or informed about their beautiful bodies and birth.In solidarityJustine Caines
Re: A Breaktrhough in the ACT
Great news well deserved for hard work commitment. I hope that your aims are achieved as it could mean a precedent for others of us working to cahnge our own maternity services. Please keep us informed good luck. Liz McCall - Original Message - From: Vernon at Stringybark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmid [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: A Breaktrhough in the ACT Dear all, For those of you who have not already heard the news - a breakthrough in the ACT happened last Wed. Maternity Coalition has secured a meeting with the ACT Health minister to discuss development and implementation of this proposal, but for a few days at least, we're enjoying the fruits of 8 months of hard lobbying. regards Barb Vernon and Justine Caines. -- Forwarded Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 17:23:11 +1000 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Government Looks To Expand Midwifery Program ACT Government's Ministerial Media Release Service The following media release has been supplied in a text only format. The full text of the release is provided below. Title : Government Looks To Expand Midwifery Program Minister : Mr Jon Stanhope GOVERNMENT LOOKS TO EXPAND MIDWIFERY PROGRAM The Government will pursue a plan to expand Canberra Hospital's midwifery program to help overcome insurance problems, Chief Minister, Jon Stanhope, said today. Mr Stanhope told the Legislative Assembly the Government was keen to help independent midwives find a solution to their insurance crisis. The current problems in the insurance industry have resulted in independent midwives simply being unable to obtain professional indemnity insurance, he said. This is unfair for the midwives. It seems to be totally unrelated to claims' experience, and solely related to the insurance industry's decision to withdraw from providing certain types of business. The Government tried to find insurance for midwives. My Department fully investigated the possibility but cannot find it for them in Australia at this time. At the same time, we know many women want access to birthing services outside the traditional hospital setting. I have asked my Department to work with the Canberra Midwifery Program at the Hospital on the development of proposals to extend the midwifery led care in that Program to include homebirth as an option. This is still in the planning stage, and there will need to be consultation with the community. But it is an exciting prospect, and one that will provide equality of access to homebirth for women who are public patients, Mr Stanhope said. Released: Wednesday 8 May 2002 Inquiries: Greg Friedewald: (02) 6205 0434(w)(02) 6231 0993 (h) 0408 680 471(m) ACT LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ___ -- End of Forwarded Message -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: 'educated' women
Lynne Interesting that you cite the (I presume) MIDIRS Informed Choice leaflets. I Mavis Kirkham's attended presentationat the ICM Congress in Vienna regarding the analysis of the effectiveness of the leaflets. Very big study. From memory the results have been published in the BMJ . Unfortunately, once again the findings were not positive as the analysis indicated that women continue to believe the MO rather than evidence based leaflets. Mavis concludesthat auhtorative knowledge ( that is the dominant ideology) is all and thatdecisions are made in a climate ofblame manipulation and control fear. This is not to say don't use them, develop your own etc. Just to be aware that they are not necessarily going to be as influencing on decision making as we may think ( or hope)! Liz McCall - Original Message - From: Lynne Staff To: Debby M Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 8:53 AM Subject: Re: 'educated' women Dear Debbie - I was saddened to read your posting but also so pleased you turned your experience into a positive learning one for yourself and others, as you shared with this list. Some years ago I had to do an assignment for uniwhere we had to choose a group of disadvantaged women and prepare a resource package for them, to make available for them in order to "maximise" their chances of a good birth (that means so many things to different people doesn't it?). Anyway, I chose privately insured women as a disadvantaged group andbased my arguments on the high operative outcomes, that cannot be explained away by 'risk', and strengthened that argument using the way in which , and what information is provided to women by obstetricians (as women with Private Health insurance would get the majority of their information from their ob with that ever pervasive medical perspective). I would love to talk to you more about this if you would be willing. Also I do agree that we (in Oz) need, as you say, some leaflets like the informed choice leaflets thatare available in the UK. However, I was looking through them againh, the other day, and thinking that there are still some of the brochures which subtly (and some not-so-subtly) lead a woman 'that' way, and lead them away from listening to, believing in and acting on theirown bodily knowledgeand what it tells them at this time. Just my two cents worth - regards, Lynne - Original Message - From: Debby M To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: Re: 'educated' women I consider myself an educated woman. Two degrees and post graduate studies would certainly indicate such however it is only since the birth of my first child that I came to realise how difficult it is for a medical lay person to obtain information that truely allows them to make an informed choice. My first birth was the classic cascade of intervention leading to a csec and I was led down that path by my obstetrician. It wasn't until some months after the birth and a lot of reading, that I discovered there were many many aspects of the decisions made by myself that were far from informed. On almost every aspect related to my "care" my obstetrician presented me with advice and information that could only lead me to conclude and agree that his advice for the recommended intervention was right. I later found there were a whole range of risks and options that I was not told about and on one piece of intervention he actually out and out lied to me. I can only presume that he thought he was doing the right thing, but I also get the feeling that often we, the woman, are only told what our carer wants us to hear. Whilst we may think we are informed at the time it is not until we get our noses into some good medical research papers and text books that we discover how much wider the risks and options are. This in itself presents a couple of problems. The first being time, and what do you teach women? There is obviously a lot to learn or obstetric and midwifery training wouldn't take so long. Some of the concepts I have read about I have had to bounce of my husband (a radiographer) to fully grasp what is being discussed and its implications, indicating that those with a lesser education than I may have even more difficulty in grasping some of the risks or benefits of different ideas related to labour management. I am very pro informing the woman. I think one of the best ways this could be done would be to have a series of little brochures that talk in simplified terms that most women could understand what the causes, treatments and consequences of the myriad of birth related problems and procedures are, eg. Understanding Fetal Distress
Re: monitoring at 41+ weekslong
How about a discussion about what advice Midwivesoffer post dates women. This has recently been an issue for me one woman said fine I'll know if my baby is ok, but another said I want tests to show me my baby is well . Obviously there is no 1 answer but research suggests that post term induction can prevent stillbirth.[for every 500 inductions 1 baby will be saved however the problems with inductions etc as we all know are emormous . So is it a kick chart ,serial GTGS ,ctg combined with AFI and arterial blood flow, an u/s or wait and see? For me in pardon me this "climate " I think the best advice is to get really good dates every bit of information incl if nec an early scan . But this can backfire too! For instance I have a client who on dates and conception is due say on the 19th of the month then the family decides to have a scan [11 weeks] for other reasons. I recommeed a good practitioner and the dates are not confirmed but are 19 days earlier.so is the baby due the 1st or 19th ?How do u agree on a date ? Iwould love tohave a good chat about these issues. jan - Original Message - From: Monica To: Ozmidwifery Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 8:30 PM Subject: Re: monitoring at 41+ weeks Penny, Recent research (which I can't lay my hands on at the moment but could when I go back to work if you like) suggests that intrauterine death from placental insufficiency/ degradation (post dates) is unlikely withinn 48 hrs of a reactive, variable ctg. Your niece's advice represents most recent thought, provided the staff available are able to interpret the ctg effectively. Monica ---Original Message--- From: Penelope Gibson Date: Monday, 13 May 2002 11:37:26 AM To: chatline Subject: monitoring at 41+ weeks Dear all, My neice is giving birth to her first baby at a fairly small country hospital and is now 10 days past her due date by dates and early scan. She has been advised to travel 11/2 hours each way every two days for ctg monitoring if she elects not to be induced by syntocinon drip. Prostaglandins is not an option at this country hospital. An ultrasound is available one day per week. Her baby is moving well and she does not feel impatient to have her baby and feels well. I feel that the added stress of the travel for monitoring does not justify its limited information. What are your interpretations on the research available? Thanks Penelope Gibson IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: Formula factory
Good on you, Macha. That takes guts. Kind regards, Lois - Original Message - From: Macha McDonald To: ozmidwifery Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 8:39 PM Subject: RE: Formula factory Well, today I approached the head of science department, armed with a photocopy of page 270 from G Palmers book, The politics of b/f. It talks about the specific company in question (I didnt think about the code). I decided to keep it simple because I didnt want to be fobbed off as a loony! I said to him, "Re the inservice and factory tours, I dont think its a good idea to tour meiji. There are terrible health and social risks associated with formula feeding. Health professionals go out of their way to advocate b/f, and as scientists, I think we should too. I believe that taking students to meiji could contribute to imbalanced decisions about future infant feeding choices." He said "Yeah well we probably wouldnt be allowed in there anyway." I gave him the bit of paper and left it at that. If it comes up that they do decide to do a tour of meiji, I will approach him again with the WHO code and some other facts, and if that doesnt work I will try the principal or Dep of Edu, Emp and Training. Sound like a good plan? Even if I just get to have my say, I'll be happy.
The Sunday Times/Mail Article
Ok I got riled when I read that article from the Sunday Mail and wrote a response to the editor. With any luck they may take some notice and publish an article that shows the opposite side of the argument. Ref: Too Posh to Push What a crying shame so many women have been mislead in thinking a caesarean birth is safer than a vaginal delivery. A woman is between two and five times (depending on which research paper you read) more likely to die during a caesarean than she is during a vaginal delivery. She will also have a longer recovery time, is likely to have more problems breastfeeding if she wants to, is more likely to suffer from infertility in subsequent attempts at pregnancy, she is more likely to suffer endrometriosis and she is more likely to suffer from painful internal adhesions. In the meantime her baby is more likely to be born premature and is more likely to suffer from the potentially fatal fetal respiratory syndrome. No I am not a doctor or a midwife. My first child was born by emergency csec and I was very keen to ensure that my second would be born as safely as possible - so I read the medical research for myself. Despite my obstetrician saying a caesarean was safer and more convenient I was horrified to find that his information was not supported by the research. An ascertion that was confirmed when I visited another obstetrician who agreed that the research did indeed show vaginal delivery is safer. Having had both a caesarean and a 27 hour labour to birth my second child vaginally I would say that the few hours of pain in childbirth and a second degree tear were significantly easier to recover from than the months of pain I suffered after my caesarean (and I had a good recovery according to most my caesarean commrades). The other big arguement many women use is for a caesarean over a vaginal delivery is that they wish to remain "intact". This too is dissillusionment a caesarean does not reduce your risk of uterine prolaspse or urinary incontinence. The damage that increases the risk of these conditions occurs during pregnancy not birth. The third factor commonly cited is the problem with the pain. When it comes to pain I am the worlds biggest wimp. However pain can be dealt with, there are a number of medical and non medical ways that can make birth significantly more comfortable - there is of course some risk in pain relief too depending on the choice taken. Medicated pain reliefs can go through the placenta to the baby (pethadine) or slow the labour down (epidural). Non medicated pain reliefs are not as effective - massage, warm baths etc - although I personally found a warm bath more effective than pethadine. With regards to convenience, there is always the option of induction (although this is also not without its risks), however I personally would prefer a healthy baby than one born by my diary - and yes I work full time in a professional position. Our children too precious to take unnecessary risks with. There are most certainly instances when a caesarean delivery is safer than a vaginal delivery but not at the 25% rate Australia currently has - according to WHO the safe caesarean rate is around 10%. I am now looking forward to the birth of my next child and unless there is a medical reason either before or during my labour she will be born the way Mother Nature designed me to have her.Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: monitoring at 41+ weeks
The due date is the difficult one Jan. I had a similar case where the due dates were the 14 Feb, the U/S 5th March. Baby born on the 22nd march. no obvious evidence of "overdue" 3400gms.(She went 16 days Over her dates with her first as well) always a dilemma.MM
address for ACMI Melbourne?
Could someone please post the email address for ACMI ? It has disappeared out of my address book. thanks, MM
Re: address for ACMI Melbourne?
Hi Mary, For Vic branch: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is that the one you were after? Andrea Bilcliff
Re: address for ACMI Melbourne?
Thanks Andrea but the one I want is for the National office. MM For Vic branch: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is that the one you were after? Andrea Bilcliff
Re: address for ACMI Melbourne?
Mary, there are a few email addresses listed for the National Office on the back of Feb's "Australian Midwifery News". You can contact: Vanessa Owen: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alana Street: [EMAIL PROTECTED] General enquires: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Membership: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hope one of them helps! Andrea - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy To: Andrea Bilcliff ; list Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 12:31 PM Subject: Re: address for ACMI Melbourne? Thanks Andrea but the one I want is for the National office. MM
Re: Information
Hi there Tania, I am a BMid student Flinders Uni in Adelaide SA. There is another Uni here in SA (UNISA) 2 Uni's in Victoria offering Bmid this year for the first time. The entry criteria for UNISA was scores based, or what they call TER ranking, which goes on yr school leaving score or yr Mature Entrance Exam score. Flinders did this but also asked for applicants to submit a 1000 word essay outlining the changes/challenges facing midwifery at this time what they saw their role in that would be. I am not sure what the Victorian Unis entry criteria was. At this stage UTS does not offer the BMid, I think they will next year or soonish at any rate. The workload is do-able, the major crisis facing Flinders atm is that the Uni has not been able to renew its Public Indemnity Insurance for any of its students or staff to work or gain placements in maternity or obstetric areas. The placements I will be doing in a few weeks time will be general nursing. UNISA the 2 Unis in Vicland do not yet face this crisis, but it may come when their insurance runs out in June/July. I am 36, a single parent of 2 girls, live 45 mins by car away from Uni, and coping. (sometimes only just:)) The person to contact UTS is prolly Nicki Leap, I dont have her email addy here right now but someone will:) On Tue, 14 May 2002 09:52, Tania Simon wrote: Hi there Ladies, I've been laying low on this list but soaking up all of the wonderful information that you share. I currently work in Singapore as a Doula and am studying to be a Childbirth Educator. I was wanting to hear from anyone out there who can give me some information on the Bachelor of Midwifery degree. I understand that UTS offers this and that they only take a certain amount of entries per year. Is anyone currently doing this degree? What is the criteria to gain entry like? What is the workload like? Any mature aged students out there? I'm 35. As I am currently in Singapore I don't intend to stay here forever but wanted to start researching possible options for me upon my return to Sydney. Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated Thank you Tania Grose-Hodge Singapore. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: The Sunday Times/Mail Article
HEAR HEAR DEBBY!!! I hope they publish THIS one. - Original Message - From: Debby M To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 11:27 AM Subject: The Sunday Times/Mail Article Ok I got riled when I read that article from the Sunday Mail and wrote a response to the editor. With any luck they may take some notice and publish an article that shows the opposite side of the argument. Ref: Too Posh to Push What a crying shame so many women have been mislead in thinking a caesarean birth is safer than a vaginal delivery. A woman is between two and five times (depending on which research paper you read) more likely to die during a caesarean than she is during a vaginal delivery. She will also have a longer recovery time, is likely to have more problems breastfeeding if she wants to, is more likely to suffer from infertility in subsequent attempts at pregnancy, she is more likely to suffer endrometriosis and she is more likely to suffer from painful internal adhesions. In the meantime her baby is more likely to be born premature and is more likely to suffer from the potentially fatal fetal respiratory syndrome. No I am not a doctor or a midwife. My first child was born by emergency csec and I was very keen to ensure that my second would be born as safely as possible - so I read the medical research for myself. Despite my obstetrician saying a caesarean was safer and more convenient I was horrified to find that his information was not supported by the research. An ascertion that was confirmed when I visited another obstetrician who agreed that the research did indeed show vaginal delivery is safer. Having had both a caesarean and a 27 hour labour to birth my second child vaginally I would say that the few hours of pain in childbirth and a second degree tear were significantly easier to recover from than the months of pain I suffered after my caesarean (and I had a good recovery according to most my caesarean commrades). The other big arguement many women use is for a caesarean over a vaginal delivery is that they wish to remain "intact". This too is dissillusionment a caesarean does not reduce your risk of uterine prolaspse or urinary incontinence. The damage that increases the risk of these conditions occurs during pregnancy not birth. The third factor commonly cited is the problem with the pain. When it comes to pain I am the worlds biggest wimp. However pain can be dealt with, there are a number of medical and non medical ways that can make birth significantly more comfortable - there is of course some risk in pain relief too depending on the choice taken. Medicated pain reliefs can go through the placenta to the baby (pethadine) or slow the labour down (epidural). Non medicated pain reliefs are not as effective - massage, warm baths etc - although I personally found a warm bath more effective than pethadine. With regards to convenience, there is always the option of induction (although this is also not without its risks), however I personally would prefer a healthy baby than one born by my diary - and yes I work full time in a professional position. Our children too precious to take unnecessary risks with. There are most certainly instances when a caesarean delivery is safer than a vaginal delivery but not at the 25% rate Australia currently has - according to WHO the safe caesarean rate is around 10%. I am now looking forward to the birth of my next child and unless there is a medical reason either before or during my labour she will be born the way Mother Nature designed me to have her. Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.-- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: 'educated' women
Hi Liz Kirkham Mavis gave the Oration at the ACMI Fellows Investiture last year, and I enjoyed her presentation thoroughly. I would love a copy of her full paper, so must peruse BMJ. No, I was thinking about the way in which the leaflets were put together, not only in actual terminolgy used but in the way some of the sentences were construced as well. The messages still come through in some of them (even though they are evidence based),that birthis a potential disaster.Yes, lurking on the fringes, and it is these veiled meanings, I guess you could call them, that I was particularly referring to. I do think it is wonderful the leafletsareavailable (and wasn't it about time, too) and they are a positive step for women, and I know Rome wasn't built in a day (but these leaflets do lay a good foundation).These are just somethoughts I have after reflecting a bit on them. (and I am sure there are many midwives out there who are ready to throttle me for my posting to Debby and the list!! But, as I said,the comment is meant to be a constructive one, and not destructive, and based on my own musings/observations - whatever you like to call them.) This is entirely separate from what Mavis Kirkham's study is about. I interpreted the content of her orationas meaningthe way in which midwives used the leaflets, and in the ways midwivesprovided women with"packages of dense information" without actually ascertaining what women's individual information needs were, or hearing what the women were telling them their needs were. I am truely an academic novice, and haven't got the words to say what I mean yet,but I have this thing about information and the ways in which it is provided (not hard to pick THAT!!! I wonder if it is obsessive compulsive disorder, and what I should do with it!!). By the way, I love Kirkham and Perkins' "Reflections on Midwifery" Recommended reading for all midwives, GPs and obstetricians involved in maternity care. Regards, Lynne - Original Message - From: Ms Elizabeth McCall To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: Re: 'educated' women Lynne Interesting that you cite the (I presume) MIDIRS Informed Choice leaflets. I Mavis Kirkham's attended presentationat the ICM Congress in Vienna regarding the analysis of the effectiveness of the leaflets. Very big study. From memory the results have been published in the BMJ . Unfortunately, once again the findings were not positive as the analysis indicated that women continue to believe the MO rather than evidence based leaflets. Mavis concludesthat auhtorative knowledge ( that is the dominant ideology) is all and thatdecisions are made in a climate ofblame manipulation and control fear. This is not to say don't use them, develop your own etc. Just to be aware that they are not necessarily going to be as influencing on decision making as we may think ( or hope)! Liz McCall - Original Message - From: Lynne Staff To: Debby M Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 8:53 AM Subject: Re: 'educated' women Dear Debbie - I was saddened to read your posting but also so pleased you turned your experience into a positive learning one for yourself and others, as you shared with this list. Some years ago I had to do an assignment for uniwhere we had to choose a group of disadvantaged women and prepare a resource package for them, to make available for them in order to "maximise" their chances of a good birth (that means so many things to different people doesn't it?). Anyway, I chose privately insured women as a disadvantaged group andbased my arguments on the high operative outcomes, that cannot be explained away by 'risk', and strengthened that argument using the way in which , and what information is provided to women by obstetricians (as women with Private Health insurance would get the majority of their information from their ob with that ever pervasive medical perspective). I would love to talk to you more about this if you would be willing. Also I do agree that we (in Oz) need, as you say, some leaflets like the informed choice leaflets thatare available in the UK. However, I was looking through them againh, the other day, and thinking that there are still some of the brochures which subtly (and some not-so-subtly) lead a woman 'that' way, and lead them away from listening to, believing in and acting on theirown bodily knowledgeand what it tells them at this time. Just my two cents worth - regards, Lynne - Original Message - From: Debby M To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: Re: 'educated' women I
