RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message I have seen a subgaleal hemorrhage. The baby died. It was awful. It was the first neonatal death I had ever witnessed. Baby had cord round neck and after the cord was cut turned out to have shoulder dystocia. I cant remember whether they attempted ventouse I think so, but unsuccessfully, finally was forceps delivery, but unfortunately baby was severely damaged, we did CPR, transfused it, intubated, ventilatedetc etc. but no good. I will remember that for a long time. The swollen head was unbelievably large and went down its neck. Lindsay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gloria Lemay Sent: Monday, 1 August 2005 8:31 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information I have a video of a 20/20 segment from here in N. America which shows two severely injured babies after a ventouse extraction. The pediatrician on the film talks about how subgaleal hemmorhages can cause the infant to losehis/her entire blood volume. One of the baby girls in the film required extensive surgery in her first year of life and the other died from the trauma. The one who lived was presenting by the brow and the ventouse was applied over the front fontanelle. She looked like someone had hit her with a baseball bat---black eyes and huge swelling on the forehead. It's quite astounding that babies actually can take that kind of punishment and live. I'd love to send it to Australia---do you have players for VHS?? They were very critical in the film of drs applying it for longer than 30 minutes. Of course, one of the deadly things about both forceps and ventouse is the greatly increased risk of shoulder dystocia and all it's trauma. It's one thing to bring that unwilling head out that has not properly molded but then, the fundus doesn't have a chance to firm up and piston the rest of the baby out. Personally, I'd go for a cesarean before I'd allow these implements on my child's head. Not that that's any guarantee, because the ventouse and forceps are often used to help get babe's head out during surgery. Gloria - Original Message - From: Robyn Thompson To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:59 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Babies are affected by Ventousse and Forceps. Many babies in my years of breastfeeding data are unable to feed properly for up to 7 days due to trauma around the tempro-mandibular joint. If you watch carefully the baby is tentative, the pain is obvious as he/she avoids stretching the joint to allow the mandible to move downwards. They reduce the movement to protect themselves from the pain of extension. It is hard to imagine the pressure on their tiny little heads, the soft tissue bruising and extensive oedema. They often have difficulty breastfeeding and because of the magic 10% weight loss, many are teat fed. These little babies often need very gentle finger feeding with a periodontal syringe for the first 5 to 7 days to encourage gentle joint movement by the small let down from the long tapered tip of the syringe which flows gently over the back of the tongue creating the swallow reflex. In cases where these little babies are offered a teat it should be long and soft, definitely not teats attached to those narrow disposable hospital bottles, nor anything like the ridiculous Avent style wide neck teat with short nipple. Very gentle coaxing to move the joint with small amounts of milk at a time until the joint, soft tissue, muscles, ligaments and never endings recover. If cup feeding is used then small amounts gently given so the baby can cope with the flow when trying to co-ordinate the use of the painful tempro-mandibular joint. Robyn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicole Carver Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2005 12:00 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information One of the presentations at ICM was about ventouse. There are known side effects. Minor ones include caput succanadeum which is swelling of the scalp and cephal haematoma which is bruising between the skull bone and its membrane covering. The major one was a sub apponeuretic haemorrhage which I think is inside the skull and so the bleeding is less limited because there is more space, and the baby can lose quite a bit of blood. It can also cause pressure on the brain. The midwife suggested that hourly head circumferences after a ventouse might pick these up early. However, they are very rare. The higher the baby when the ventouse is applied, and the longer the time it is applied seems to be important. The pressure should not be on continuously for more than ten minutes, and the obstetrician should not use it for more than 2-3 contractions. I have had a quick look through the program, but can't find the midwife's name. She also mentioned
Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message Janet, Better than forceps. How about : www.gpnotebook.co.uk fairly comprehensive. Or: www.juniormagazine.co.uk Or: www.diseasesdatabase.com Any good? Brenda M - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information They don't have anything on how it might affect a baby. No one does. J - Original Message - From: Dean Jo To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information have you tried maternity wise? jo -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Hi all, can anyone direct me to online resources on the use and risks of ventouse? I have the info from ACE but that's about it really. Best, J Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first!http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recoveryhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message Thanks, Brenda. Diseases Database was the best so far in depth and discussion including a bit of a rave on what informed consent really is! Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone. I think I've got all that's possible apart from the ICM stuff : ) J - Original Message - From: brendamanning To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Janet, Better than forceps. How about : www.gpnotebook.co.uk fairly comprehensive. Or: www.juniormagazine.co.uk Or: www.diseasesdatabase.com Any good? Brenda M - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information They don't have anything on how it might affect a baby. No one does. J - Original Message - From: Dean Jo To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information have you tried maternity wise? jo -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Hi all, can anyone direct me to online resources on the use and risks of ventouse? I have the info from ACE but that's about it really. Best, J Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first!http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recoveryhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message Babies are affected by Ventousse and Forceps. Many babies in my years of breastfeeding data are unable to feed properly for up to 7 days due to trauma around the tempro-mandibular joint. If you watch carefully the baby is tentative, the pain is obvious as he/she avoids stretching the joint to allow the mandible to move downwards. They reduce the movement to protect themselves from the pain of extension. It is hard to imagine the pressure on their tiny little heads, the soft tissue bruising and extensive oedema. They often have difficulty breastfeeding and because of the magic 10% weight loss, many are teat fed. These little babies often need very gentle finger feeding with a periodontal syringe for the first 5 to 7 days to encourage gentle joint movement by the small let down from the long tapered tip of the syringe which flows gently over the back of the tongue creating the swallow reflex. In cases where these little babies are offered a teat it should be long and soft, definitely not teats attached to those narrow disposable hospital bottles, nor anything like the ridiculous Avent style wide neck teat with short nipple. Very gentle coaxing to move the joint with small amounts of milk at a time until the joint, soft tissue, muscles, ligaments and never endings recover. If cup feeding is used then small amounts gently given so the baby can cope with the flow when trying to co-ordinate the use of the painful tempro-mandibular joint. Robyn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicole Carver Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2005 12:00 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information One of the presentations at ICM was about ventouse. There are known side effects. Minor ones include caput succanadeum which is swelling of the scalp and cephal haematoma which is bruising between the skull bone and its membrane covering. The major one was a sub apponeuretic haemorrhage which I think is inside the skull and so the bleeding is less limited because there is more space, and the baby can lose quite a bit of blood. It can also cause pressure on the brain. The midwife suggested that hourly head circumferences after a ventouse might pick these up early. However, they are very rare. The higher the baby when the ventouse is applied, and the longer the time it is applied seems to be important. The pressure should not be on continuously for more than ten minutes, and the obstetrician should not use it for more than 2-3 contractions. I have had a quick look through the program, but can't find the midwife's name. She also mentioned an australian doctor who has a website with a lot of info about ventouse. I will check my notes and get back to you. Just going out for a bike ride with the family. Nicole. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Megan Larry Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:37 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information AnOsteopath may have some info on it, maybe try through the association, ora local practitioner? It is probably another of those practices (ventouse) that hasn't been looked into beyond 'saving' babies lives in the birth process. I would think its Osteos and the like that know more about long term impacts. Megan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2005 10:45 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information They don't have anything on how it might affect a baby. No one does. J - Original Message - From: Dean Jo To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information have you tried maternity wise? jo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Hi all, can anyone direct me to online resources on the use and risks of ventouse? I have the info from ACE but that's about it really. Best, J Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first! http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recovery http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message I have a video of a 20/20 segment from here in N. America which shows two severely injured babies after a ventouse extraction. The pediatrician on the film talks about how subgaleal hemmorhages can cause the infant to losehis/her entire blood volume. One of the baby girls in the film required extensive surgery in her first year of life and the other died from the trauma. The one who lived was presenting by the brow and the ventouse was applied over the front fontanelle. She looked like someone had hit her with a baseball bat---black eyes and huge swelling on the forehead. It's quite astounding that babies actually can take that kind of punishment and live. I'd love to send it to Australia---do you have players for VHS?? They were very critical in the film of drs applying it for longer than 30 minutes. Of course, one of the deadly things about both forceps and ventouse is the greatly increased risk of shoulder dystocia and all it's trauma. It's one thing to bring that unwilling head out that has not properly molded but then, the fundus doesn't have a chance to firm up and piston the rest of the baby out. Personally, I'd go for a cesarean before I'd allow these implements on my child's head. Not that that's any guarantee, because the ventouse and forceps are often used to help get babe's head out during surgery. Gloria - Original Message - From: Robyn Thompson To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:59 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Babies are affected by Ventousse and Forceps. Many babies in my years of breastfeeding data are unable to feed properly for up to 7 days due to trauma around the tempro-mandibular joint. If you watch carefully the baby is tentative, the pain is obvious as he/she avoids stretching the joint to allow the mandible to move downwards. They reduce the movement to protect themselves from the pain of extension. It is hard to imagine the pressure on their tiny little heads, the soft tissue bruising and extensive oedema. They often have difficulty breastfeeding and because of the magic 10% weight loss, many are teat fed. These little babies often need very gentle finger feeding with a periodontal syringe for the first 5 to 7 days to encourage gentle joint movement by the small let down from the long tapered tip of the syringe which flows gently over the back of the tongue creating the swallow reflex. In cases where these little babies are offered a teat it should be long and soft, definitely not teats attached to those narrow disposable hospital bottles, nor anything like the ridiculous Avent style wide neck teat with short nipple. Very gentle coaxing to move the joint with small amounts of milk at a time until the joint, soft tissue, muscles, ligaments and never endings recover. If cup feeding is used then small amounts gently given so the baby can cope with the flow when trying to co-ordinate the use of the painful tempro-mandibular joint. Robyn -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicole CarverSent: Sunday, 31 July 2005 12:00 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information One of the presentations at ICM was about ventouse. There are known side effects. Minor ones include caput succanadeum which is swelling of the scalp and cephal haematoma which is bruising between the skull bone and its membrane covering. The major one was a sub apponeuretic haemorrhage which I think is inside the skull and so the bleeding is less limited because there is more space, and the baby can lose quite a bit of blood. It can also cause pressure on the brain. The midwife suggested that hourly head circumferences after a ventouse might pick these up early. However, they are very rare. The higher the baby when the ventouse is applied, and the longer the time it is applied seems to be important. The pressure should not be on continuously for more than ten minutes, and the obstetrician should not use it for more than 2-3 contractions. I have had a quick look through the program, but can't find the midwife's name. She also mentioned an australian doctor who has a website with a lot of info about ventouse. I will check my notes and get back to you. Just going out for a bike ride with the family. Nicole. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Megan LarrySent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:37 AMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information AnOsteopath may have some info on it, maybe try through the association, ora local practitioner? It is probably another of those practices (ventouse) that hasn't been looked
Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
MessageThank you so much, everyone! I'm feeling very well informed now : ) J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message have you tried maternity wise? jo -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Hi all, can anyone direct me to online resources on the use and risks of ventouse? I have the info from ACE but that's about it really. Best, J Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first!http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recoveryhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message AnOsteopath may have some info on it, maybe try through the association, ora local practitioner? It is probably another of those practices (ventouse) that hasn't been looked into beyond 'saving' babies lives in the birth process. I would think its Osteos and the like that know more about long term impacts. Megan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Sunday, 31 July 2005 10:45 AMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information They don't have anything on how it might affect a baby. No one does. J - Original Message - From: Dean Jo To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information have you tried maternity wise? jo -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Hi all, can anyone direct me to online resources on the use and risks of ventouse? I have the info from ACE but that's about it really. Best, J Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first!http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recoveryhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information
Title: Message One of the presentations at ICM was about ventouse. There are known side effects. Minor ones include caput succanadeum which is swelling of the scalp and cephal haematoma which is bruising between the skull bone and its membrane covering. The major one was a sub apponeuretic haemorrhage which I think is inside the skull and so the bleeding is less limited because there is more space, and the baby can lose quite a bit of blood. It can also cause pressure on the brain. The midwife suggested that hourly head circumferences after a ventouse might pick these up early. However, they are very rare. The higher the baby when the ventouse is applied, and the longer the time it is applied seems to be important. The pressure should not be on continuously for more than ten minutes, and the obstetrician should not use it for more than 2-3 contractions. I have had a quick look through the program, but can't find the midwife's name. She also mentioned an australian doctor who has a website with a lot of info about ventouse. I will check my notes and get back to you. Just going out for a bike ride with the family. Nicole. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Megan LarrySent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:37 AMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information AnOsteopath may have some info on it, maybe try through the association, ora local practitioner? It is probably another of those practices (ventouse) that hasn't been looked into beyond 'saving' babies lives in the birth process. I would think its Osteos and the like that know more about long term impacts. Megan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Sunday, 31 July 2005 10:45 AMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information They don't have anything on how it might affect a baby. No one does. J - Original Message - From: Dean Jo To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information have you tried maternity wise? jo -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] ventouse information Hi all, can anyone direct me to online resources on the use and risks of ventouse? I have the info from ACE but that's about it really. Best, J Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first!http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recoveryhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
