Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Yeah for some form of enforcing the accountability of professional practice. Start by linking this to the ACMI professional accountability expectations of at least 40 hours worth of accrued ongoing professional development per year. Until this is enforced by linking to registration, Midwives will continue to be apathetic regarding their professional accountabilty because their paycheks will continue to arrive. Enforcing professional accountability will open the politicaleyes of most of the quiet 7000(Tina's figure). This is where the wave of activism will come from so that Midwifery models of care will become the norm in this nation Alesa Alesa KoziolClinical Midwifery EducatorMelbourne - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long In a message dated 13/10/03 11:02:18 PM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with you Tina wholeheartedly! However I ask How do we muster the collective wisdom of those midwives into action in their individual workplaces and motivate them to unite to change? I see time and time again the excuse of increased workloads and lack of support from management as fixed obstacles preventing such organized action.Late night reflections. Cheers LouiseHI Louise...all the more reasons to unite to change I would suggest.However, the trick as to all political action is in the collective numbers of the membersMidwifery here has made many advances over the last few yearsparticularly in its efforts to firmly establish its own sense of self identity and self determinisim, standards and scope of practiceThe ACMI has enjoyed strong leadership that has driven many of these changes, but the College is only as good and as strong as its membership base, which for a National organisation, has the potential to be representative of some 1 registered and/or endorsed midwives (Tracey et al 2000).However, given the apathy that Barb speaks about within the profession and the oppressed nature of midwifery, I think the College can only boast about 3000 members Nationally (about 30% of practising midwives in this country)...now this is a disgrace and even more so given we will be the hosts of the ICM Conference in Brisbaine in 2005! Midwives have a professional responsibility to ensure that their practice is evidenced based and to ensure that their level of practice "mirrors the professional standard"...Perhaps one way we could "muster the collective wisdom of those midwives into action in their individual workplaces and motivate them to unite to change" would be to link their right to practice midwifery (reregistration) to competency as in accordance with the ACMI Competency Standards for Midwives, which clearly endorses the ICM definition of a midwife! My understanding is that Tasmania is currently the only State/Territory in which this applies. As a profession why should we accept any less for all midwives, why should women??Yours in reforming midwiferyTina Pettigrew.B Mid Student ACU Melbhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/BMidStudentCollective/" As we trust the flowers to open to new life - So we can trust birth"Harriette Hartigan.---
RE: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Title: Message Ditto, well put Joy. We must always remember that all women have the right to choose. High risk women have much reduced choices but lets ensure that these women can also be attended to by midwives educated and mindful of the risk factors. Many women are delaying birth so often have pre-existing medical needs due to age. A respectful midwife, who can make a difference, in collaboration with medicalstaff that has clearly defined roles and reporting responsibilities outlined should be able to care for a so called high risk woman in the safest environment. Or are we saying they should have obstetric nurses as some often refer to hospital midwives as. I have been there for a woman in an ICU in a previous life. She was 35 weeks ventilated due to severe asthma attack. Although she was not aware of the birth, sad, at least she had a midwife who was able to tell her of the birth at a later stage. We luckily had a Polaroid to take photo's as this birth was totally unexpected!! Lets not forget some midwives would notbe comfortableto be isolated in a free standing birthing centre, is she a bad midwife for saying so Cheers Barb. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jen SempleSent: Tuesday, 14 October 2003 4:32 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long From Joy Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] : I think we all need to seeJan's caseas an extreme case. This is bullying, and unfortunately it will always occur. Even midwives can be bullies. Its a human trait to want to dominate and control. The doctor in this case may have been dreadfully upset about the loss of a baby the previous day. Hopefully he was. But his use of the experience to coerce the labouring woman and her partner into submission appears totally unfair. Access to one to one midwifery even NMAP will not change the system overnight. The woman in the story had Jan with her, and Jans a very good midwife. Women in Australia will continue to seek out the care of specialist obstetricians as long as the system biases the care in that direction. In NZ you have to pay extra to see an ob without clinical indication but there are still women who choose that option. Justines reference to NZ is an example of how vastly different the options are in NZ to here. However I have to disagree with Justines conclusion that we cant settle for midwifery programs under the acute setting AT ALL! The acute setting has a monopoly of funding for ALL births in this country, and there is no sign that thats about to change. The hospitals can offer homebirth now if they want to. In the light of all the evidence (and NMAP has put it out there for all to see) its only reasonable that hospitals will see the homebirth option as attractive for the service as well as the women. Maternity Coalition is about mothers and midwives working together for better maternity care (thats a long way from the ideal, but its pointing in the right direction). We support womens choice and access. Choice of model of care and provider of that care, and access to midwifery models of care and birth in the home or hospital. In supporting choice, we also support a womans right to choose the fully medical models of care. Australian maternity services need total reform, and thats what we are trying to bring about. Until that reform has been achieved we really cant afford to be idealistic about demanding that all midwifery be offered outside the acute (hospital) setting, when thats where the money goes, thats where the bulk of the workforce is, and thats where the woman look for their care. Joy Johnston Yahoo! Search- Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search
Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long Dear Barb and all Somehow Joy has not understood what I meant. I was talking about new programs and the fact that midwifery must have its own scope of practice. Yes women must have access to a full range of choice. No one EVER suggested taking choice away. Currently less than 1% of women can access best practice care, that of a known midwife and yet a woman has no trouble accessing a C/S with no medical indication. So my comment was about a full continuum of choice. Why should a woman seeking best practice have her rights denied, while a woman accessing unnecessary specialist care is well catered for (via the public purse!). This sad irony is that while healthy women access specialist care unnecessarily, there is the risk that those in real need can be compromised. I believe this to be a real issue in regional referral units, esp with the reduction in practitioners. The majority of women are not high risk, but best practice would allow for what you describe, the great support of midwifery in concert with other care, women in high risk situations would greatly benefit from the relationship of a known midwife, as would healthy women. When I say stand alone. I mean midwives being responsible for a full scope of practice. ie being able to care for a healthy woman throughout the episode in any setting. Naturally when there is indication of complication etc a collaborative approach is necessary. What we have now is Obstetrics determining the normal. This is against best practice and is unsafe. As I understand a midwife is trained to care for a healthy woman throughout the episode in a variety of settings, but due to medical domination the majority work in a highly fragmented system. Hope this makes more sense. Justine Ditto, well put Joy. We must always remember that all women have the right to choose. High risk women have much reduced choices but lets ensure that these women can also be attended to by midwives educated and mindful of the risk factors. Many women are delaying birth so often have pre-existing medical needs due to age. A respectful midwife, who can make a difference, in collaboration with medical staff that has clearly defined roles and reporting responsibilities outlined should be able to care for a so called high risk woman in the safest environment. Or are we saying they should have obstetric nurses as some often refer to hospital midwives as. I have been there for a woman in an ICU in a previous life. She was 35 weeks ventilated due to severe asthma attack. Although she was not aware of the birth, sad, at least she had a midwife who was able to tell her of the birth at a later stage. We luckily had a Polaroid to take photo's as this birth was totally unexpected!! Lets not forget some midwives would not be comfortable to be isolated in a free standing birthing centre, is she a bad midwife for saying so Cheers Barb. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jen Semple Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2003 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long >From Joy Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] : I think we all need to see Jan's case as an extreme case. This is bullying, and unfortunately it will always occur. Even midwives can be bullies. Its a human trait to want to dominate and control. The doctor in this case may have been dreadfully upset about the loss of a baby the previous day. Hopefully he was. But his use of the experience to coerce the labouring woman and her partner into submission appears totally unfair. Access to one to one midwifery even NMAP will not change the system overnight. The woman in the story had Jan with her, and Jans a very good midwife. Women in Australia will continue to seek out the care of specialist obstetricians as long as the system biases the care in that direction. In NZ you have to pay extra to see an ob without clinical indication but there are still women who choose that option. Justines reference to NZ is an example of how vastly different the options are in NZ to here. However I have to disagree with Justines conclusion that we cant settle for midwifery programs under the acute setting AT ALL! The acute setting has a monopoly of funding for ALL births in this country, and there is no sign that thats about to change. The hospitals can offer homebirth now if they want to. In the light of all the evidence (and NMAP has put it out there for all to see) its only reasonable that hospitals will see the homebirth option as attractive for the service as well as the women. Maternity Coalition is about mothers and midwives working together for better maternity care (thats a long way from the ideal, but its pointing in the right direction). We support womens choice and access. Choice of model of care and provider of that care, and access to midwifery models of care and birth in the h
RE: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Title: Message Justine, I agree with you on what you have put here. I'd love to be able to attend healthy women which most are but even healthy women can run into difficulties. It is then a 'good' midwife who would consult and refer with the woman's best interests in mind. An adverse outcome scars all, sometimes that's for life. Nice to see someone else up late. Cheers Barb -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justine CainesSent: Tuesday, 14 October 2003 10:43 PMTo: OzMid ListSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long Dear Barb and allSomehow Joy has not understood what I meant.I was talking about new programs and the fact that midwifery must have its own scope of practice. Yes women must have access to a full range of choice. No one EVER suggested taking choice away. Currently less than 1% of women can access best practice care, that of a known midwife and yet a woman has no trouble accessing a C/S with no medical indication. So my comment was about a full continuum of choice. Why should a woman seeking best practice have her rights denied, while a woman accessing unnecessary specialist care is well catered for (via the public purse!). This sad irony is that while healthy women access specialist care unnecessarily, there is the risk that those in real need can be compromised. I believe this to be a real issue in regional referral units, esp with the reduction in practitioners.The majority of women are not high risk, but best practice would allow for what you describe, the great support of midwifery in concert with other care, women in high risk situations would greatly benefit from the relationship of a known midwife, as would healthy women.When I say stand alone. I mean midwives being responsible for a full scope of practice. ie being able to care for a healthy woman throughout the episode in any setting. Naturally when there is indication of complication etc a collaborative approach is necessary. What we have now is Obstetrics determining the normal. This is against best practice and is unsafe. As I understand a midwife is trained to care for a healthy woman throughout the episode in a variety of settings, but due to medical domination the majority work in a highly fragmented system.Hope this makes more sense. JustineDitto, well put Joy.We must always remember that all women have the right to choose. High risk women have much reduced choices but lets ensure that these women can also be attended to by midwives educated and mindful of the risk factors. Many women are delaying birth so often have pre-existing medical needs due to age. A respectful midwife, who can make a difference, in collaboration with medical staff that has clearly defined roles and reporting responsibilities outlined should be able to care for a so called high risk woman in the safest environment. Or are we saying they should have obstetric nurses as some often refer to hospital midwives as.I have been there for a woman in an ICU in a previous life. She was 35 weeks ventilated due to severe asthma attack. Although she was not aware of the birth, sad, at least she had a midwife who was able to tell her of the birth at a later stage. We luckily had a Polaroid to take photo's as this birth was totally unexpected!!Lets not forget some midwives would not be comfortable to be isolated in a free standing birthing centre, is she a bad midwife for saying soCheers Barb. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jen SempleSent: Tuesday, 14 October 2003 4:32 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? longFrom Joy Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] :I think we all need to see Jan's case as an extreme case. This is bullying, and unfortunately it will always occur. Even midwives can be bullies. Its a human trait to want to dominate and control. The doctor in this case may have been dreadfully upset about the loss of a baby the previous day. Hopefully he was. But his use of the experience to coerce the labouring woman and her partner into submission appears totally unfair.Access to one to one midwifery even NMAP will not change the system overnight. The woman in the story had Jan with her, and Jans a very good midwife. Women in Australia will continue to seek out the care of specialist obstetricians as long as the system biases the care in that direction. In NZ you have to pay extra to see an ob without clinical indication but there are still women who choose that option. Justines reference to NZ is an example of how vastly
Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long So sorry, hit the wrong key and sent it off without salutation. So, if you wont transfer for meconium, you simply don't write it as a reason you would do so. Of course you need to be able to defend your position should the situation ever arise. Also these documents must be available to your clients as it gives them an insight as to your comfort zone of practice. I know, from being on this list, that many independent midwives here hold dearly to the concept of discussing this individually with each woman and trusting the woman to make these decisions in concert with yourself of course. I am truly impressed by and honour this, and there must be a way of writing this in a document(s) so that you don't have other peoples guidelines etc.. imposed upon you. Just my opinion marilyn - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long Hi Julie and allI totally agree. Collaboration is the way forward but medical control of midwifery is not collaboration, collaboration is a 2 way street not something dictated by Obstetrics. Midwives must have an scope of practice in their own right (and this is what the Dutch do). We need to acknowledge that midwives are experts in the normal and that when conditions change they collaborate and refer to other providers. This is what the ACMI national guidelines for referral and transfer are going to be used for.As for independent homebirth practitioners, we legally dont have them (this is the choice women are most unable to access) there is no respect for the professionalism of midwifery outside the system (by Government) as they have not only refused to assist with indemnity but in NSW and VIC have made it illegal for any health practitioner to practice without insurance.Public funded homebirth is a very important choice as it will allow so many more to access it. It will no longer be an elite private service. However there is no evidence for and significant evidence against a homebirth program being managed in the acute setting. Obstetricians are not trained in normal birth. The safety and success of homebirth is in the relationship and trust between midwife and woman (not obstetric protocol).Birth Centre transfer statistics and protocols speak volumes. Once again obstetric control allows a little bit of midwifery and then reins in where it sees fit (often against evidence and not in the best interests of women). With the current obstetric crisis we have the best opportunity to develop stand alone midwifery programs. We do not need to accept a re-hash of what we have now. The UK now has 70 odd freestanding birth centres and some very positive work on providing all women who want homebirth with it and providing women with the real facts on C/S risk. So no we dont need to speak Dutch!! JustineActing National President Maternity CoalitionNational Co-ordinator, Homebirth AustraliaMum of 3 and a halfDear JustineWe all know there are better models of care for example in Holland but to transplant that model here, rapidly would be about as difficult / impossible as trying to change our culture to the extent of making Australians speak the Dutch language.If we have birth centres, midwifery group practice, hospital based homebirth models and independent homebirth practitioners then women have a range of options from which to choose.If we prevent one of these then we are limiting womens choices.In solidarity, we need to be working together, to strengthen ALL options, which empower women and midwives to work together.For credibility, it needs to be evidenced based and collaborative in approach. The Dutch collaborate.Warmest regards,JulieJulie Clarke CBEChildbirth and Parenting EducatorACE Grad-Dip SupervisorNACE Advanced Educator and TrainerTransition into Parenthood9 Withybrook PlSylvania NSW 2224.T. (02) 9544 6441F. (02) 9544 9257Mobile 0401 2655 30email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.transitionintoparenthood.com.au-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justine CainesSent: Saturday, 11 October 2003 7:39 PMTo: OzMid ListSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long No Jan not just one to one midwifery, but stand alone midwifery where midwives and women decide what is best and when they need medical assistance. To me Birth Centres continue to set women up while ever they are under medical control. A penny for every time Ive heard I went to the BC and wanted natural but I just couldnt etc etc!NZ with its
Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
In a message dated 13/10/03 11:02:18 PM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with you Tina wholeheartedly! However I ask How do we muster the collective wisdom of those midwives into action in their individual workplaces and motivate them to unite to change? I see time and time again the excuse of increased workloads and lack of support from management as fixed obstacles preventing such organized action. Late night reflections. Cheers Louise HI Louise...all the more reasons to unite to change I would suggest.However, the trick as to all political action is in the collective numbers of the membersMidwifery here has made many advances over the last few yearsparticularly in its efforts to firmly establish its own sense of self identity and self determinisim, standards and scope of practiceThe ACMI has enjoyed strong leadership that has driven many of these changes, but the College is only as good and as strong as its membership base, which for a National organisation, has the potential to be representative of some 1 registered and/or endorsed midwives (Tracey et al 2000).However, given the apathy that Barb speaks about within the profession and the oppressed nature of midwifery, I think the College can only boast about 3000 members Nationally (about 30% of practising midwives in this country)...now this is a disgrace and even more so given we will be the hosts of the ICM Conference in Brisbaine in 2005! Midwives have a professional responsibility to ensure that their practice is evidenced based and to ensure that their level of practice "mirrors the professional standard"...Perhaps one way we could "muster the collective wisdom of those midwives into action in their individual workplaces and motivate them to unite to change" would be to link their right to practice midwifery (reregistration) to competency as in accordance with the ACMI Competency Standards for Midwives, which clearly endorses the ICM definition of a midwife! My understanding is that Tasmania is currently the only State/Territory in which this applies. As a profession why should we accept any less for all midwives, why should women?? Yours in reforming midwifery Tina Pettigrew. B Mid Student ACU Melb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BMidStudentCollective/ " As we trust the flowers to open to new life - So we can trust birth" Harriette Hartigan. ---
Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Jan that is absolutely appalling!!! What was the outcome? What are you and the family going to do about it. Linda Trewern - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 7:46 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long THEY ARE A HEALTHY HAPPY, WELL PREPARED AND CONFIDENT COUPLE BOOKED INTO BIRTH CENTRE AN TAKING MW ALONG 1ST BABE TERM PLUS 5 DAYS srom SMIDGEN OF MEC CTG PERFECT 2hrs later and she is in good labour standing with monitor on working happily adjusted well with transfer and then the grand pooh barr arrives minimal intro of self no intro of others [4 others in total] up on bed umm get the portable U/S and see what the PP part is. Oh its head first she says he glares at her they rush to his command TO GET THE U/S MACHINE I introduce myself he nods I ask if he knows I am an independent midwife he tells me he knows EVERY THINGignores me and turns to woman glumly he says I am sorryu have meconium do u know what that means? yes she said that is why I am here the baby has done a pooh and thetas probablynormal but I will need to adjust my birthing plans to include the monitor meconium is serious HE SAYS yesterday a baby died because of meconium all nod the young dad to be bravely said but our baby looks great on monitor nothing to do with it this baby was on monitor and by the time we got to theatreit was dead sigh meconium we could do a c/Ds now and hope for best she looked defeated he cried in fear and they all stood behind him looking grave and nodding and I thought wow is this for real? This is why one to one midwifery care from a known midwife must happen to stop this abuse Jan
Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long No Jan not just one to one midwifery, but stand alone midwifery where midwives and women decide what is best and when they need medical assistance. To me Birth Centres continue to set women up while ever they are under medical control. A penny for every time Ive heard I went to the BC and wanted natural but I just couldnt etc etc! NZ with its radically better system has not seen the outcomes it should have and the Kiwis say this is because of the medical protocols underpinning the system. This is why we cant settle for midwifery programs under the acute setting AT ALL! and this is what NMAP says. I think some forget this periodically, but I DONT!! In solidarity Justine Jan that is absolutely appalling!!! What was the outcome? What are you and the family going to do about it. Linda Trewern - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 7:46 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long THEY ARE A HEALTHY HAPPY, WELL PREPARED AND CONFIDENT COUPLE BOOKED INTO BIRTH CENTRE AN TAKING MW ALONG 1ST BABE TERM PLUS 5 DAYS srom SMIDGEN OF MEC CTG PERFECT 2hrs later and she is in good labour standing with monitor on working happily adjusted well with transfer and then the grand pooh barr arrives minimal intro of self no intro of others [4 others in total] up on bed umm get the portable U/S and see what the PP part is. Oh its head first she says he glares at her they rush to his command TO GET THE U/S MACHINE I introduce myself he nods I ask if he knows I am an independent midwife he tells me he knows EVERY THING ignores me and turns to woman glumly he says I am sorry u have meconium do u know what that means? yes she said that is why I am here the baby has done a pooh and thetas probably normal but I will need to adjust my birthing plans to include the monitor meconium is serious HE SAYS yesterday a baby died because of meconium all nod the young dad to be bravely said but our baby looks great on monitor nothing to do with it this baby was on monitor and by the time we got to theatre it was dead sigh meconium we could do a c/Ds now and hope for best she looked defeated he cried in fear and they all stood behind him looking grave and nodding and I thought wow is this for real? This is why one to one midwifery care from a known midwife must happen to stop this abuse Jan
Re: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Jan, This brought tears to my eyes.How dare this woman her partner (baby) be treated this way. Tina H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 7:46 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long THEY ARE A HEALTHY HAPPY, WELL PREPARED AND CONFIDENT COUPLE BOOKED INTO BIRTH CENTRE AN TAKING MW ALONG 1ST BABE TERM PLUS 5 DAYS srom SMIDGEN OF MEC CTG PERFECT 2hrs later and she is in good labour standing with monitor on working happily adjusted well with transfer and then the grand pooh barr arrives minimal intro of self no intro of others [4 others in total] up on bed umm get the portable U/S and see what the PP part is. Oh its head first she says he glares at her they rush to his command TO GET THE U/S MACHINE I introduce myself he nods I ask if he knows I am an independent midwife he tells me he knows EVERY THINGignores me and turns to woman glumly he says I am sorryu have meconium do u know what that means? yes she said that is why I am here the baby has done a pooh and thetas probablynormal but I will need to adjust my birthing plans to include the monitor meconium is serious HE SAYS yesterday a baby died because of meconium all nod the young dad to be bravely said but our baby looks great on monitor nothing to do with it this baby was on monitor and by the time we got to theatreit was dead sigh meconium we could do a c/Ds now and hope for best she looked defeated he cried in fear and they all stood behind him looking grave and nodding and I thought wow is this for real? This is why one to one midwifery care from a known midwife must happen to stop this abuse Jan
RE: [ozmidwifery] who is really there for women ? long
Title: Message OMG. That is disgusting. I agree with Justine. Free standing birth centres are a must. They may have cont. of care in NZ but they still have high intervention rates. In the Netherlands however, they have birthing hotels for women who don't want to birth at their home and their C-section rate is only 12 per cent (as of 2000 data). I'm thinking next baby I will go and book myself into the Sheraton : ). So sorry you and your clients had that horrible experience Jan. When are these obs going to learn? We had one ob up here suggest that women's rights should be overalled if they refuse a C-sect. The suggestion is appalling, not least because it goes against basic human rights but because if a woman refuses intervention when it is needed(as sometimes it is)it is an indication that there is a lack of support and trust...the very things we are fighting to establish with NMAP. Soldier on... cheers, Cas.
