Re: [PD] libpd and objective c
Le 2011-10-21 à 14:35:00, ronni montoya a écrit : Hi , do anybody have any experience using libpd for iphone using objective c? Yes. It's easy to add libpd to your project in XCode. However, I decided not to use libpd's own interface to Objective-C, most of which is just a détour if you compare it to how things can be written like in plain C. In that sense, I'm using more directly vanilla, except for the soundcard interface. Due to some concerns of portability, most of my iPhone code is not in ObjectiveC, just like most of my Android code wouldn't be in Java if I wrote an Android app. It's not necessarily a matter of how much those languages themselves are portable, it's mostly that I only need them for using platform-specific APIs. is it possible to develop a comercial iphone app with embedded libpd and sell it in the app store. «just» avoid all GPL libraries, which are not allowed in AppStore. This means even [expr] is banned. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] expr alternative
how hard would it be to rewrite the expr code so that it doesn't need to be GPL licensed? or has anyone ever tried contacting the original authors and asking them to change the license so it can fit in with pd's standard BSD ?? sorry if i'm being naive. just wondering. seems a bit of a pain that vanilla pd has this one chocolate fleck. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
Le 2011-10-24 à 02:27:00, i go bananas a écrit : how hard would it be to rewrite the expr code so that it doesn't need to be GPL licensed? The only other implementation of [expr] is [#expr], but that's GPL too. But it shows that an implementation of [expr] doesn't have to be long and complicated like the original [expr]. At the moment, [#expr] supports only floats. It was meant to also support symbols and grids, but that's not implemented yet. Signals are in some way another business, but nearly all of the same code can be reused. or has anyone ever tried contacting the original authors and asking them to change the license so it can fit in with pd's standard BSD ?? I don't think anyone here ever wrote to the guy... you could try. BTW, would LGPL be fine ? To GPL fans, that's easier to accept, yet it works in contexts where GPL is not acceptable, such as iPhone development. For example, the gzip codec (libz) is LGPL, yet it's used in several iPhone activities such as decompressing http streams and png images. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
On Oct 23, 2011, at 1:45 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Le 2011-10-24 à 02:27:00, i go bananas a écrit : how hard would it be to rewrite the expr code so that it doesn't need to be GPL licensed? The only other implementation of [expr] is [#expr], but that's GPL too. But it shows that an implementation of [expr] doesn't have to be long and complicated like the original [expr]. At the moment, [#expr] supports only floats. It was meant to also support symbols and grids, but that's not implemented yet. Signals are in some way another business, but nearly all of the same code can be reused. or has anyone ever tried contacting the original authors and asking them to change the license so it can fit in with pd's standard BSD ?? I don't think anyone here ever wrote to the guy... you could try. BTW, would LGPL be fine ? To GPL fans, that's easier to accept, yet it works in contexts where GPL is not acceptable, such as iPhone development. For example, the gzip codec (libz) is LGPL, yet it's used in several iPhone activities such as decompressing http streams and png images. I think the Apple App Store conflicts with all GNU/FSF licenses. Any effort to switch code to BSD in order to work around Apple's lameness should also be matched with efforts to get Apple to stop being so lame. .hc Free software means you control what your computer does. Non-free software means someone else controls that, and to some extent controls you. - Richard M. Stallman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
Le 2011-10-23 à 13:54:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit : I think the Apple App Store conflicts with all GNU/FSF licenses. Then think again ! __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] editing pd silence
Le 2011-10-22 à 15:29:00, martin brinkmann a écrit : On 10/22/2011 02:39 PM, saskia diez wrote: I just discover this since i bought a nice speakers, before i havent realize that sound editors add that hiss. i could hardly believe that, but you are right! i have just created a file with writesf~, ensured that it contained only zeros (hexeditor), loaded it in audacity, exported as 16bit wav, and after normalizing, there was a lot of noise. How much is a lot ? What's the amplitude in the noise ? If it's something like 1/65536 of the maximum level, that's not what I'd call « a lot »... It could appear because of different conceptions of where the home volume is. Lots of code assumes that in a range going from -32768 to +32767, the middle is 0 ; but it's also possible to assume that the middle is -½, which is the average of -32768 and +32767. The latter makes it impossible to make a completely empty signal. However, that signal is still DC. It needs some kind of misinterpretation of 0 (using two different conceptions at once) to think that 0 really means ½ and that ½ has to be dithered because it's not a whole number. Personally, I don't understand what's the point of dither in audio. Maybe it's just an evil plot to make CD quality sound like 8-track cartridges. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] editing pd silence - dither
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 02:20:38PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Personally, I don't understand what's the point of dither in audio. Maybe it's just an evil plot to make CD quality sound like 8-track cartridges. Without dither, truncation error becomes truncation distortion. It is correlated with the signal, yet not harmonic. While under certain circumstances this can be exploited as a special effect, it is not desirable when your goal is fidelity. The use of dither in digital audio is directly analogous to the use of dither to defeat posterization and achieve the illusion of smooth color transitions in visual images with limited color levels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colour_banding_example01.png In that image, the 24-bit gradient would be analogous to the full width audio signal prior to bit depth reduction, the 8 bit gradient, dithered would be analogous to dithered audio, and the 8 bit gradient displaying obvious color banding would be analogous to truncated audio. Marvin Humphrey ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] editing pd silence
On 10/23/2011 08:20 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: How much is a lot ? What's the amplitude in the noise ? If it's something like 1/65536 of the maximum level, that's not what I'd call « a lot »... it is more. after normalizing i had about 8 different sample values (including zero) in the file. the (unnormalized) noise is audible, when the volume is rather high, it is at least 2 times louder than the natural noisefloor of my soundcard/amp/speakers. ...and i have archived all my music as flac using audacity, since 2006. fortunately i should still have the original 32bit float files somwhere in my cdr-pile... it is also explained here: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Dither Personally, I don't understand what's the point of dither in audio. Maybe it's just an evil plot to make CD quality sound like 8-track cartridges. bis denn! martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] editing pd silence - dither
Le 2011-10-23 à 11:36:00, Marvin Humphrey a écrit : In that image, the 24-bit gradient would be analogous to the full width audio signal prior to bit depth reduction, the 8 bit gradient, dithered would be analogous to dithered audio, and the 8 bit gradient displaying obvious color banding would be analogous to truncated audio. I understand all of that already, but my impression is that it's more like making a 24-bit gradient use dithering so that it looks more like a 48-bit gradient. Would it make a perceptual improvement if you did so ? I recall that the audio dithering technique worked really great on PC-Speakers running on a 1-bit DAC (it's called an on/off switch). But that's because it used only a 1-bit device. If the device already has 16 bits, it takes silly mistakes to emphasise the truncation error so much that it can be heard. E.g. if you have a fully 16-bit-digital volume control on an amp, and the amp has a big volume range and you only use the quiet range, the effective number of bits can down a lot. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
From: i go bananas hard@gmail.com To: PD List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:27 PM Subject: [PD] expr alternative how hard would it be to rewrite the expr code so that it doesn't need to be GPL licensed? or has anyone ever tried contacting the original authors and asking them to change the license so it can fit in with pd's standard BSD ?? sorry if i'm being naive. just wondering. seems a bit of a pain that vanilla pd has this one chocolate fleck. What is the pain? -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] editing pd silence - dither
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 04:04:58PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: I understand all of that already, but my impression is that it's more like making a 24-bit gradient use dithering so that it looks more like a 48-bit gradient. Would it make a perceptual improvement if you did so ? No, of course not -- such a difference, though measurable, would fall below a human's perceptual threshold. But truncate over and over again, and eventually, the error accumulates and rises above threshold. It's hard to hear the first pass of a perceptual codec. But run audio through a codec multiple times, and you get a cliff edge effect: nothing... nothing... nothing... oh wow now I hear it. Truncation distortion, being enharmonic, is pretty nasty. It's not like analog tape overload. A little truncation distortion goes a long way, and unless you are going for glitch, best practice to keep it at bay by managing gain structure wisely and dithering when appropriate. E.g. if you have a fully 16-bit-digital volume control on an amp, and the amp has a big volume range and you only use the quiet range, the effective number of bits can down a lot. It's also not uncommon to capture a killer take under less than ideal recording conditions -- including input gain structure. It's worthwhile for developers of audio software to think about such things, so that downstream users benefit from the additional headroom. Marvin Humphrey ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
What is the pain? -Jonathan Hi Jonathan, if you want to use pd in a commercial application, and particularly if you want to use it as the basis for an iphone application, then you cannot include anything that is licensed under the GPL license. In vanilla PD, this means that you have to remove any expr objects. The rest of pd is licensed under the 'standard improved BSD license, which if freer, and allows you to use pd for commercial applications without revealing the source code, too. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
ok, so i checked out the http link that's listed at the top of expr help in pd. http://www.crca.ucsd.edu/~yadegari/expr.html and it says, Based on original sources from IRCAM's jMax http://www.ircam.fr/jmax Released under GNU's General Public License. so, if it is based on jMax code, does that mean that the original jMax code would also have to be cleared? (it is GPL too) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
jMax is distributed under GNU’s Lesser General Public License http://jmax.sourceforge.net/ is that the LGPL that mattieu is talking about? in that case, it might be as simple as a nice email to Shadrokh Yadegari to get his expr for pd license changed to LGPL too?? i agree with hans that apple is being lame here too. but don't like my chances of getting any sort of positive action from them. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] expr alternative
On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:47 PM, i go bananas wrote: What is the pain? -Jonathan Hi Jonathan, if you want to use pd in a commercial application, and particularly if you want to use it as the basis for an iphone application, then you cannot include anything that is licensed under the GPL license. In vanilla PD, this means that you have to remove any expr objects. The rest of pd is licensed under the 'standard improved BSD license, which if freer, and allows you to use pd for commercial applications without revealing the source code, too. The GPL has absolutely no restrictions on commerce. You are free to sell any GPL software however you see fit. But you must give the source code to everyone you give the software to. As the author of a fair mount of GPL software, I want to reiterate: please sell my software. The more people that are using it, the more likely they'll want to hire me to improve it. .hc I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Android latency tester
Hi all, In an effort to discover which Android devices are going to be best to run Pd on, here is an app and a page you can help contribute to. Please test your Android device and submit the outcome! :) http://puredata.info/AndroidLatency Cheers, Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
