Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On 10/01/2012 11:30 AM, Charles Goyard wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>> http://blinky.at.or.at:/auto-build/latest/Pd-extended_0.43.3~20121001-source.tar.bz2
>>
>> Ah, yes, that is a tarball, but they aren't supposed to be there... I
>> need to fix that, thanks for pointing it out.
>>
>> The source tarballs are still experimental, that's why I'm not posting
>> them on the latest/ listing.
> However, I find it super convenient to have them handy.
>

You can get them under each date on that page.

.hc

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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Charles Goyard]

Hi,

Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> http://blinky.at.or.at:/auto-build/latest/Pd-extended_0.43.3~20121001-source.tar.bz2
> 
> Ah, yes, that is a tarball, but they aren't supposed to be there... I
> need to fix that, thanks for pointing it out.
>
> The source tarballs are still experimental, that's why I'm not posting
> them on the latest/ listing.

However, I find it super convenient to have them handy.

-- 
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

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On 10/01/2012 10:34 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2012-10-01 15:42, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>
> > Besides, the source link you added is pointless and misleading
> > because there is no source tarball on the 'latest' listing. Please
> > remove it.
>
> removed. sorry for any inconvenience.
>
> btw, isn't [1] a source tarball?
>
> fgmsdr
> IOhannes
>
> [1]
>
http://blinky.at.or.at:/auto-build/latest/Pd-extended_0.43.3~20121001-source.tar.bz2

Ah, yes, that is a tarball, but they aren't supposed to be there... I
need to fix that, thanks for pointing it out.

The source tarballs are still experimental, that's why I'm not posting
them on the latest/ listing.

.hc
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

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On 2012-10-01 15:42, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> Besides, the source link you added is pointless and misleading
> because there is no source tarball on the 'latest' listing. Please
> remove it.

removed. sorry for any inconvenience.

btw, isn't [1] a source tarball?

fgmsdr
IOhannes

[1]
http://blinky.at.or.at:/auto-build/latest/Pd-extended_0.43.3~20121001-source.tar.bz2

> 
> .hc
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

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On 10/01/2012 06:31 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2012-10-01 12:14, Charles Goyard wrote:
> > Sure, thanks.
>
> > On a side note, it could be nice to have the link to the source
> > code for beta here:
> > https://puredata.info/downloads/pd-extended/releases/0.43.1
>
>
> i added a generic link to the download-folder at blinky.
> since the source-tarballs of the beta-release still have the
> packaging-date as part of their filename and are generated on a
> nightly basis, i'd rather not add the full URL.

Please do not edit my Pd-extended downloads page without checking with
me first.  The same rules as the SVN should apply to downloads pages.  I
created and maintain the Pd-extended downloads page, therefore no one
should edit it without asking me first.  I think the same should go with
every page there.

Besides, the source link you added is pointless and misleading because
there is no source tarball on the 'latest' listing. Please remove it.

.hc
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

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On 2012-10-01 12:14, Charles Goyard wrote:
> Sure, thanks.
> 
> On a side note, it could be nice to have the link to the source
> code for beta here: 
> https://puredata.info/downloads/pd-extended/releases/0.43.1
> 

i added a generic link to the download-folder at blinky.
since the source-tarballs of the beta-release still have the
packaging-date as part of their filename and are generated on a
nightly basis, i'd rather not add the full URL.

fgmasdr
IOhannes
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Charles Goyard]

IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 2012-10-01 10:02, Charles Goyard wrote:
> > In these days of universal binaries for mac, the "All platforms"
> > wording is really misleading to newcomers.
> we should prepare ourselves for the time when apple decides to reveal
> their dark side and use the term "source" for everything that grants
> sith-power, so we don't mislead any newcomers.
> any ideas for a good wording?

I get your point, but since the modification you just made is helpful
AND does not hide details away, I guess we're set.


> hopefully this will help.

Sure, thanks.

On a side note, it could be nice to have the link to the source code for
beta here:
https://puredata.info/downloads/pd-extended/releases/0.43.1

++
-- 
Charles

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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

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On 2012-10-01 10:02, Charles Goyard wrote:
> In these days of universal binaries for mac, the "All platforms"
> wording is really misleading to newcomers.

we should prepare ourselves for the time when apple decides to reveal
their dark side and use the term "source" for everything that grants
sith-power, so we don't mislead any newcomers.
any ideas for a good wording?


> 
> I second that "Get Pd-extended for All platforms" should read "Get 
> Pd-extended source code".

i changed the text to read "All platforms (Source code)" (since the
website uses a template "Get  for " which would give
use "Get Pd-extended for source code" which is probably even more
confusing), and also changed the icon to be little more technoid.

hopefully this will help.

fgmasdr
IOhannes
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Charles Goyard]

Hi,

Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> I think there is going to be no good order for that page.  One thing
> that would make things easier is if there was some platform detection,
> and then there was a link at the top of the page for the detected
> platform.  If anyone did the work to add that support to our Plone
> download page, I would definitely support that change.

I second that "Get Pd-extended for All platforms" should read "Get
Pd-extended source code".

In these days of universal binaries for mac, the "All platforms" wording
is really misleading to newcomers.

Cheers,
-- 
Charlot

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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Joel Matthys]

I realize that no solution will solve all of the installation problems. 
There is a whole 'nother conversation here about students following 
directions...


I do post specific install links to the OSX and Windows binaries on the 
class webpage since the pd download page is so often too confusing for 
them. That strategy works just fine for me, but I can't help but think 
that this is an issue that would be an easy fix and would improve in 
some small way the accessibility of Pd.


Adding features is great but sometimes removing obstacles is good too.

Joel

On 09/30/2012 08:23 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

I definitely understand your desire to save class time by having the students 
install before hand.  I've been trying for years to find ways of making that 
actually happen.  In my classes at NYU, 95% of the students have Mac laptops, 
so that makes it a lot easier.  But even still, I always start out in the first 
class having a session on installation troubles.

So even if we move the source download to the bottom, I doubt that will solve 
all the installation difficulties.

I would try emailing and linking to the common platfroms in your class.  So if 
its mostly Windows users, send them the Windows links, etc.

.hc

On Sep 30, 2012, at 7:36 AM, Antonio Roberts wrote:


... and then they got puzzled, asked someone else, downloaded the proper
one and learnt something about software in the process ... isn't that part
of the reason you get students to download it themselves?

No. That could be part of the learning process for some tutorials, but
in my case I wanted the tutorial to start from opening the program,
not downloading it. In my class of five just over five mnutes was
wasted downloading and installing Pure Data for four students.

If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
page

Antonio

On 30 September 2012 05:19, Simon Wise  wrote:

On 30/09/12 05:40, Antonio Roberts wrote:

This has also happened to me on a couple of occasions. They saw that
it was for all platforms and so downloaded it, regardless of operating
system


... and then they got puzzled, asked someone else, downloaded the proper
one and learnt something about software in the process ... isn't that part
of the reason you get students to download it themselves?

Simon


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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

I think there is going to be no good order for that page.  One thing that would 
make things easier is if there was some platform detection, and then there was 
a link at the top of the page for the detected platform.  If anyone did the 
work to add that support to our Plone download page, I would definitely support 
that change.

.hc

On Sep 30, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Scott R. Looney wrote:

> i think moving it to the bottom or renaming the source code link is a good 
> idea. maybe just rename the source link to 'Get PD Source Code For All 
> Platforms'. the gray colored 'Source tarball' can be missed if you're in a 
> hurry.
> 
> scott
> 
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Joel Matthys  wrote:
> Yes, I totally understand the political argument for placing src first. I 
> guess the debate comes down to how far we want to go to make things easier 
> for new users. To me, this seems like a move that may help avoid confusion 
> and frustration among new users, a very important demographic for the future 
> of the project, and it doesn't seem like it would be a violation of our FOSS 
> philosophy.
> 
> On the other hand, I *don't* support the idea of putting all of the "major" 
> platforms at the top. Start with BSD, by all means. For me, it's just the 
> phrase "all platforms" at the top of the page that caused the confusion.
> 
> Joel
> 
> 
> 
> On 09/30/2012 10:20 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> On 09/30/2012 01:36 PM, Antonio Roberts wrote:
> If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
> I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
> page
> so which one should be first? bsd?
> 
> (personally i prefer src as first entry for political reasons; otoh, a
> system like on sourceforge, where the top-download is determined based
> on the client's OS might be most helpful; however, i don't know how to
> implement that in the current framework)
> 
> fmsar
> IOhannes
> 
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

I definitely understand your desire to save class time by having the students 
install before hand.  I've been trying for years to find ways of making that 
actually happen.  In my classes at NYU, 95% of the students have Mac laptops, 
so that makes it a lot easier.  But even still, I always start out in the first 
class having a session on installation troubles.

So even if we move the source download to the bottom, I doubt that will solve 
all the installation difficulties.

I would try emailing and linking to the common platfroms in your class.  So if 
its mostly Windows users, send them the Windows links, etc.

.hc

On Sep 30, 2012, at 7:36 AM, Antonio Roberts wrote:

>> ... and then they got puzzled, asked someone else, downloaded the proper
>> one and learnt something about software in the process ... isn't that part
>> of the reason you get students to download it themselves?
> No. That could be part of the learning process for some tutorials, but
> in my case I wanted the tutorial to start from opening the program,
> not downloading it. In my class of five just over five mnutes was
> wasted downloading and installing Pure Data for four students.
> 
> If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
> I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
> page
> 
> Antonio
> 
> On 30 September 2012 05:19, Simon Wise  wrote:
>> On 30/09/12 05:40, Antonio Roberts wrote:
>>> 
>>> This has also happened to me on a couple of occasions. They saw that
>>> it was for all platforms and so downloaded it, regardless of operating
>>> system
>> 
>> 
>> ... and then they got puzzled, asked someone else, downloaded the proper
>> one and learnt something about software in the process ... isn't that part
>> of the reason you get students to download it themselves?
>> 
>> Simon
>> 
>> 
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Scott R. Looney]

i think moving it to the bottom or renaming the source code link is a good
idea. maybe just rename the source link to 'Get PD Source Code For All
Platforms'. the gray colored 'Source tarball' can be missed if you're in a
hurry.

scott

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Joel Matthys  wrote:

> Yes, I totally understand the political argument for placing src first. I
> guess the debate comes down to how far we want to go to make things easier
> for new users. To me, this seems like a move that may help avoid confusion
> and frustration among new users, a very important demographic for the
> future of the project, and it doesn't seem like it would be a violation of
> our FOSS philosophy.
>
> On the other hand, I *don't* support the idea of putting all of the
> "major" platforms at the top. Start with BSD, by all means. For me, it's
> just the phrase "all platforms" at the top of the page that caused the
> confusion.
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> On 09/30/2012 10:20 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
>
>> On 09/30/2012 01:36 PM, Antonio Roberts wrote:
>>
>>> If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
>>> I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
>>> page
>>>
>> so which one should be first? bsd?
>>
>> (personally i prefer src as first entry for political reasons; otoh, a
>> system like on sourceforge, where the top-download is determined based
>> on the client's OS might be most helpful; however, i don't know how to
>> implement that in the current framework)
>>
>> fmsar
>> IOhannes
>>
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Joel Matthys]

Yes, I totally understand the political argument for placing src first. 
I guess the debate comes down to how far we want to go to make things 
easier for new users. To me, this seems like a move that may help avoid 
confusion and frustration among new users, a very important demographic 
for the future of the project, and it doesn't seem like it would be a 
violation of our FOSS philosophy.


On the other hand, I *don't* support the idea of putting all of the 
"major" platforms at the top. Start with BSD, by all means. For me, it's 
just the phrase "all platforms" at the top of the page that caused the 
confusion.


Joel


On 09/30/2012 10:20 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:

On 09/30/2012 01:36 PM, Antonio Roberts wrote:

If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
page

so which one should be first? bsd?

(personally i prefer src as first entry for political reasons; otoh, a
system like on sourceforge, where the top-download is determined based
on the client's OS might be most helpful; however, i don't know how to
implement that in the current framework)

fmsar
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Antonio Roberts]

> so which one should be first? bsd?
Move everything up one. Of course it would be better if the first one
on the list was relevant to the client's OS but with this at least the
source isn't the first one to be downloaded

Antonio

On 30 September 2012 15:20, IOhannes m zmölnig  wrote:
> On 09/30/2012 01:36 PM, Antonio Roberts wrote:
>>
>> If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
>> I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
>> page
>
> so which one should be first? bsd?
>
> (personally i prefer src as first entry for political reasons; otoh, a
> system like on sourceforge, where the top-download is determined based
> on the client's OS might be most helpful; however, i don't know how to
> implement that in the current framework)
>
> fmsar
> IOhannes
>
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 09/30/2012 01:36 PM, Antonio Roberts wrote:
> 
> If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
> I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
> page

so which one should be first? bsd?

(personally i prefer src as first entry for political reasons; otoh, a
system like on sourceforge, where the top-download is determined based
on the client's OS might be most helpful; however, i don't know how to
implement that in the current framework)

fmsar
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Antonio Roberts]

>  ... and then they got puzzled, asked someone else, downloaded the proper
> one and learnt something about software in the process ... isn't that part
> of the reason you get students to download it themselves?
No. That could be part of the learning process for some tutorials, but
in my case I wanted the tutorial to start from opening the program,
not downloading it. In my class of five just over five mnutes was
wasted downloading and installing Pure Data for four students.

If the proposed change means that I can save five or more minutes then
I fully support moving the source code download to the bottom of the
page

Antonio

On 30 September 2012 05:19, Simon Wise  wrote:
> On 30/09/12 05:40, Antonio Roberts wrote:
>>
>> This has also happened to me on a couple of occasions. They saw that
>> it was for all platforms and so downloaded it, regardless of operating
>> system
>
>
>  ... and then they got puzzled, asked someone else, downloaded the proper
> one and learnt something about software in the process ... isn't that part
> of the reason you get students to download it themselves?
>
> Simon
>
>
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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Simon Wise]

On 30/09/12 05:40, Antonio Roberts wrote:

This has also happened to me on a couple of occasions. They saw that
it was for all platforms and so downloaded it, regardless of operating
system


 ... and then they got puzzled, asked someone else, downloaded the proper one 
and learnt something about software in the process ... isn't that part of the 
reason you get students to download it themselves?


Simon

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Re: [PD] Pd download page

[Antonio Roberts]

This has also happened to me on a couple of occasions. They saw that
it was for all platforms and so downloaded it, regardless of operating
system

On 29 September 2012 22:24, Joel Matthys  wrote:
> I have a question about the download page at puredata.info. Is there a
> special reason that the source tarball is listed first in the file list?
>
> Would it offend our FOSS sensibilities to move the source package to the
> bottom of the download list? It seems unusual to me to see the source listed
> first.
>
> I use Pd with my students, many of them undergraduates with no understanding
> of the difference between source and binary. When I assign students to
> download and install the Pd binary, despite my explicit warnings, invariably
> a few of them will grab the source, since it's at the top of the page and
> says "all platforms."
>
> (In the most recent incident, a student downloaded the source, and, unsure
> how to proceed, asked the university IT department, who told him "just to
> open it in Adobe.") :-)
>
> Joel
>
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[PD] Pd download page

[Joel Matthys]

I have a question about the download page at puredata.info. Is there a 
special reason that the source tarball is listed first in the file list?


Would it offend our FOSS sensibilities to move the source package to the 
bottom of the download list? It seems unusual to me to see the source 
listed first.


I use Pd with my students, many of them undergraduates with no 
understanding of the difference between source and binary. When I assign 
students to download and install the Pd binary, despite my explicit 
warnings, invariably a few of them will grab the source, since it's at 
the top of the page and says "all platforms."


(In the most recent incident, a student downloaded the source, and, 
unsure how to proceed, asked the university IT department, who told him 
"just to open it in Adobe.") :-)


Joel
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