Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:04:47AM -0400, Kevin McCoy wrote: what distro are you on? Ubuntu Studio Feisty 7.04. I usually do load some GNOME things ocasionally and I wonder if they are staying in the system... I'm running a P4 1.6 GHz 384 MB RAM so I need to keep the memory freed up. I will look into the running processes, I haven't taken the time to find out what is what yet. Application startup (including pd) is slow and the pc doesn't seem to be paging or anything to disk... km i'm not very positive about ubuntu .. i'd recoment you slackware - the latest release (12) now has HAL and 2.6.12 kernel ..it didn't have either before for a reason .. well .. it's up to you which distro to run .. but some of them aren't designed to run on older hardware (such as suse and probably ubuntu).. .. also may be it's a good idea to minimize the kernel (just too be sure :) i'd say - i can set up a dedicated box which would have only necessary apps on it and would take the full advantage of the hw .. but it is very hard to explain all i would do setting it up. try studing more about linux, i think if you feel up for it - you'll get to the point when you can sort it out. Companies Act 2006 : http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/companyinfo ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 16:16 +, ilya .d wrote: On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:04:47AM -0400, Kevin McCoy wrote: what distro are you on? Ubuntu Studio Feisty 7.04. I usually do load some GNOME things ocasionally and I wonder if they are staying in the system... I'm running a P4 1.6 GHz 384 MB RAM so I need to keep the memory freed up. I will look into the running processes, I haven't taken the time to find out what is what yet. Application startup (including pd) is slow and the pc doesn't seem to be paging or anything to disk... km i'm not very positive about ubuntu .. yo, for my part, i am very positive about ubuntu. i still have ubuntu dapper installed and i changed to fluxbox, though sometimes i still run some gnome applications. all drivers have been running out of the box (inlcuding video drivers, wireless and all that stufff); no issues with binary firmware of any hardware; getting realtime priority for pd and jack wasn't complicated at all; i get can 7ms roundtrip latency, if i want; i never had the feeling, that it takes too much time to start pd (though, i usually load only the libs needed); and i have also only 512MB RAM. for all that, i wouldn't know why to use a distro, where it requires much more effort to get things working. this is just the experience i had, that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else. my two cents roman i'd recoment you slackware - the latest release (12) now has HAL and 2.6.12 kernel ..it didn't have either before for a reason .. well .. it's up to you which distro to run .. but some of them aren't designed to run on older hardware (such as suse and probably ubuntu).. .. also may be it's a good idea to minimize the kernel (just too be sure :) i'd say - i can set up a dedicated box which would have only necessary apps on it and would take the full advantage of the hw .. but it is very hard to explain all i would do setting it up. try studing more about linux, i think if you feel up for it - you'll get to the point when you can sort it out. Companies Act 2006 : http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/companyinfo ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
heppo i'm fluxboxing too f.e. kdeinit in the .fluxbox/startup minimizes startup time for kde programms. On 10/6/07, Roman Haefeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 16:16 +, ilya .d wrote: On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:04:47AM -0400, Kevin McCoy wrote: what distro are you on? Ubuntu Studio Feisty 7.04. I usually do load some GNOME things ocasionally and I wonder if they are staying in the system... I'm running a P4 1.6 GHz 384 MB RAM so I need to keep the memory freed up. I will look into the running processes, I haven't taken the time to find out what is what yet. Application startup (including pd) is slow and the pc doesn't seem to be paging or anything to disk... km i'm not very positive about ubuntu .. yo, for my part, i am very positive about ubuntu. i still have ubuntu dapper installed and i changed to fluxbox, though sometimes i still run some gnome applications. all drivers have been running out of the box (inlcuding video drivers, wireless and all that stufff); no issues with binary firmware of any hardware; getting realtime priority for pd and jack wasn't complicated at all; i get can 7ms roundtrip latency, if i want; i never had the feeling, that it takes too much time to start pd (though, i usually load only the libs needed); and i have also only 512MB RAM. for all that, i wouldn't know why to use a distro, where it requires much more effort to get things working. this is just the experience i had, that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else. my two cents roman i'd recoment you slackware - the latest release (12) now has HAL and 2.6.12 kernel ..it didn't have either before for a reason .. well .. it's up to you which distro to run .. but some of them aren't designed to run on older hardware (such as suse and probably ubuntu).. .. also may be it's a good idea to minimize the kernel (just too be sure :) i'd say - i can set up a dedicated box which would have only necessary apps on it and would take the full advantage of the hw .. but it is very hard to explain all i would do setting it up. try studing more about linux, i think if you feel up for it - you'll get to the point when you can sort it out. Companies Act 2006 : http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/companyinfo ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Planet Pluto bleibt! ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:51:32PM -0400, Kevin McCoy wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Kevin McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Oct 4, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time To: Andy Farnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use fluxbox WM, no hassle, no fancy bollocks. It's just X with some coloured window bars and a program launcher menu. I should have mentioned that I use the same, I love fb but the programs are still slow to start - problems must be elsewhere. I ended up liking xterm better because it is so speedy but I am still interested in finding out more. xterm is even the slowest around (the start up benchmarks that i have seen, recomend gnome-term, but i think gnome-term is fast to start-up, but it takes A LOT while running! ) rxvt and aterm are very good, i use aterm for general purpose and urxvt when i need unicode (mutt, irc). generaly unicode does make apps take more memory, cause characters take more ... you know .. People always say you shouldn't have to reinstall linux to maintain it so I would love to hear about possible remedies.. just don't. (i mean about doing reinstall) what distro are you on? km -- http://pocketkm.blogspot.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
384MB ram seems a bit low.. (nowadays) My old duron 800 has 1GB. I've not noticed PD starting more slowly than it always has on my feisty or etch machines... you can always try oprofile to see what is using up what (CPU wise) .b. Kevin McCoy wrote: what distro are you on? Ubuntu Studio Feisty 7.04. I usually do load some GNOME things ocasionally and I wonder if they are staying in the system... I'm running a P4 1.6 GHz 384 MB RAM so I need to keep the memory freed up. I will look into the running processes, I haven't taken the time to find out what is what yet. Application startup (including pd) is slow and the pc doesn't seem to be paging or anything to disk... km ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
I notice this not only on Pd but on most programs... gnome-terminal eventually starting taking so long to start up the first couple of times that I gave up and started with xterm, for example. Firefox takes a long time as well and I am using that every day... km On 10/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 09:15:06AM -0700, Miller Puckette wrote: Hmm, now has anyone noticed that Pd (first time after booting) starts up progressively more slowly over the months you own a linux machine? I'm suspicious that there's a correlation with how much software you have loaded on the machine. Maybe having lots of shared libraries and programs to use them makes dynamic linking slower (see, e.g., 'man ldconfig'). That's nothing but a guess. cheers Miller i think this is not what is happening really.. i noticed a slowdown when i added a huge bunch of externals with different paths to them. so now i removed all and set the nessary once in one locations but with subdirectories (by name, as appears in the cvs). this seems to be fine .. i think that ldconfig caches frequently used stuff in /etc/ld.conf.cache but still keeps only file descriptors in the memory .. On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:53:46AM +0100, Andy Farnell wrote: Yes this is page/cache feature and seen with many apps. If you have a very frequently used app that you want to load fast each time then consider creating a RAM disk. Study Knoppix and Puredyne to see that in action. A start script to load Pd bins into RAM and then set the path to them. Useful for performance situations maybe. On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:10:27 +0200 Atte Andr? Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi When I run pd the first time it takes a while to load, the second time it's much faster. I use a bash script to load my session (ardour, muse, pd + more) so if pd isn't running before muse, muse can't connect it's midi outs to pd's midi in. I assume the load time is a matter of loading a binary, that's cached the second time. If so, where's the big binary? I tried running cat /usr/local/bin/pd /dev/null in the beginning of my bash script, but that didn't seem to work. If the above is a blind alley, whe could be done to speed up pd loadtime the first time? NB: pd is version 0.40.3, and I'm running debian/linux... -- peace, love harmony Atte http://atte.dk | http://myspace.com/attejensen http://anagrammer.dk | http://modlys.dk ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Use the source ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://pocketkm.blogspot.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Kevin McCoy wrote:
I notice this not only on Pd but on most programs... gnome-terminal
eventually starting taking so long to start up the first couple of times
that I gave up and started with xterm, for example. Firefox takes a long
time as well and I am using that every day...
Last time that I was having huge slowdowns, I looked at top by CPU
usage, and it was showing a program called hal sucking 100% cpu all of
the time and keeping the cpu hot.
(without any special priorities, in that case, one other program trying
to get 100% will only get 50%, because cpu is shared equally)
gnome-terminal is an utter waste of RAM, but most people have plenty of
RAM to waste. top now says it has 100 megs virtual RAM of which 9 megs
are shared RAM, so I might be led to think that it's really taking 91
megs, but that is false. Say that the process id is 5262; then open the
pseudo-file /proc/5262/maps as plain text. I have:
08089000-090c3000 rw-p 08089000 00:00 0 [heap]
Which is the main chunk of process-specific memory. The size is not
written but you may compute it like this using bash:
echo $(( 0x090c3000-0x08089000 ))
and then it says 17014784, which is about 16.2 megs of RAM, only. It's a
lot more RAM than what the scrollback buffers would warrant (here it says
636k per tab and I have 7 tabs open) but it's not 91 megs.
In a more automated way:
cat /proc/5262/maps |
ruby -ne 'a=split;b=a[0].split-;c=b[1].hex-b[0].hex;puts#{c} #{a[1]}
#{a[5]}' | sort -n
all on one line, sorts all RAM segments of a process per size, and it
seems that it's counting 25 megs of RAM per Gnome process just for the
icons, which is mapped read-only. Now, by default, read-only mapped files
do not take any more RAM than what they take in the disk cache. This is a
lot less cumbersome than a read-write segment, which is the kind of
segment that has to be swapped out when you lack RAM.
In short, top is not making a good breakdown of RAM usage.
I'd like to hear more reasons why startup and general operation might be
slow.
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Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
I use fluxbox WM, no hassle, no fancy bollocks. It's just
X with some coloured window bars and a program launcher menu.
The MS Windows philosophy seriously subverted peoples expectations
and understanding of what an Operating System and Desktop are.
MS Windows and its imitators are not *operating systems* they are
background application suites that burn energy running pointless tat
you don't really need. I don't want spinning windows and dancing monkeys,
if I wanted that I'd take drugs.
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:56:43 -0400 (EDT)
Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Kevin McCoy wrote:
I notice this not only on Pd but on most programs... gnome-terminal
eventually starting taking so long to start up the first couple of times
that I gave up and started with xterm, for example. Firefox takes a long
time as well and I am using that every day...
Last time that I was having huge slowdowns, I looked at top by CPU
usage, and it was showing a program called hal sucking 100% cpu all of
the time and keeping the cpu hot.
(without any special priorities, in that case, one other program trying
to get 100% will only get 50%, because cpu is shared equally)
gnome-terminal is an utter waste of RAM, but most people have plenty of
RAM to waste. top now says it has 100 megs virtual RAM of which 9 megs
are shared RAM, so I might be led to think that it's really taking 91
megs, but that is false. Say that the process id is 5262; then open the
pseudo-file /proc/5262/maps as plain text. I have:
08089000-090c3000 rw-p 08089000 00:00 0 [heap]
Which is the main chunk of process-specific memory. The size is not
written but you may compute it like this using bash:
echo $(( 0x090c3000-0x08089000 ))
and then it says 17014784, which is about 16.2 megs of RAM, only. It's a
lot more RAM than what the scrollback buffers would warrant (here it says
636k per tab and I have 7 tabs open) but it's not 91 megs.
In a more automated way:
cat /proc/5262/maps |
ruby -ne 'a=split;b=a[0].split-;c=b[1].hex-b[0].hex;puts#{c} #{a[1]}
#{a[5]}' | sort -n
all on one line, sorts all RAM segments of a process per size, and it
seems that it's counting 25 megs of RAM per Gnome process just for the
icons, which is mapped read-only. Now, by default, read-only mapped files
do not take any more RAM than what they take in the disk cache. This is a
lot less cumbersome than a read-write segment, which is the kind of
segment that has to be swapped out when you lack RAM.
In short, top is not making a good breakdown of RAM usage.
I'd like to hear more reasons why startup and general operation might be
slow.
_ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ...
| Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada
--
Use the source
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Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
-- Forwarded message -- From: Kevin McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Oct 4, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time To: Andy Farnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use fluxbox WM, no hassle, no fancy bollocks. It's just X with some coloured window bars and a program launcher menu. I should have mentioned that I use the same, I love fb but the programs are still slow to start - problems must be elsewhere. I ended up liking xterm better because it is so speedy but I am still interested in finding out more. People always say you shouldn't have to reinstall linux to maintain it so I would love to hear about possible remedies.. km -- http://pocketkm.blogspot.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:51:32PM -0400, Kevin McCoy wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Kevin McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Oct 4, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time To: Andy Farnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use fluxbox WM, no hassle, no fancy bollocks. It's just X with some coloured window bars and a program launcher menu. I should have mentioned that I use the same, I love fb but the programs are still slow to start - problems must be elsewhere. I ended up liking xterm better because it is so speedy but I am still interested in finding out more. People always say you shouldn't have to reinstall linux to maintain it so I would love to hear about possible remedies.. I know that whenever a Gnome based program is launched under a lighter window manager like fluxbox, all kinds of weird background stuff happens like the launch of gconfd (I guess so they can emulate the cpu-hogginess and bugginess of the windows registry). Any one of those many activities could be causing troubles. I have not experienced the slowdown in Pd launch time myself. You can get a better idea of what might be slowing it down by doing an strace and looking for places where it blocks. Best, Chris. PS for people who want a nice middle ground between fluxbox's minimalism and gnome/kde's user friendly funcitonality, xfce4 comes highly recommended. It's very light, very fast, and very configurable (through menus, not text files). --- http://mccormick.cx ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:48:39 -0400 Chris McCormick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS for people who want a nice middle ground between fluxbox's minimalism and gnome/kde's user friendly funcitonality, xfce4 comes highly recommended. It's very light, very fast, and very configurable Yes. Xfce is a good compromise, it looks great, has loads of gizmos that don't launch unless you want them, and has the feel of a bigger desktop but (almost) the lightness of blckbox/fluxbox. (through menus, not text files). --- http://mccormick.cx ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Use the source ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
Hmm, now has anyone noticed that Pd (first time after booting) starts up progressively more slowly over the months you own a linux machine? I'm suspicious that there's a correlation with how much software you have loaded on the machine. Maybe having lots of shared libraries and programs to use them makes dynamic linking slower (see, e.g., 'man ldconfig'). That's nothing but a guess. cheers Miller On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:53:46AM +0100, Andy Farnell wrote: Yes this is page/cache feature and seen with many apps. If you have a very frequently used app that you want to load fast each time then consider creating a RAM disk. Study Knoppix and Puredyne to see that in action. A start script to load Pd bins into RAM and then set the path to them. Useful for performance situations maybe. On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:10:27 +0200 Atte Andr? Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi When I run pd the first time it takes a while to load, the second time it's much faster. I use a bash script to load my session (ardour, muse, pd + more) so if pd isn't running before muse, muse can't connect it's midi outs to pd's midi in. I assume the load time is a matter of loading a binary, that's cached the second time. If so, where's the big binary? I tried running cat /usr/local/bin/pd /dev/null in the beginning of my bash script, but that didn't seem to work. If the above is a blind alley, whe could be done to speed up pd loadtime the first time? NB: pd is version 0.40.3, and I'm running debian/linux... -- peace, love harmony Atte http://atte.dk | http://myspace.com/attejensen http://anagrammer.dk | http://modlys.dk ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Use the source ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
one could avoid the dynamic linking by prelinking the binary ... t On Wed, 2007-10-03 at 09:15 -0700, Miller Puckette wrote: Hmm, now has anyone noticed that Pd (first time after booting) starts up progressively more slowly over the months you own a linux machine? I'm suspicious that there's a correlation with how much software you have loaded on the machine. Maybe having lots of shared libraries and programs to use them makes dynamic linking slower (see, e.g., 'man ldconfig'). That's nothing but a guess. cheers Miller On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:53:46AM +0100, Andy Farnell wrote: Yes this is page/cache feature and seen with many apps. If you have a very frequently used app that you want to load fast each time then consider creating a RAM disk. Study Knoppix and Puredyne to see that in action. A start script to load Pd bins into RAM and then set the path to them. Useful for performance situations maybe. On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:10:27 +0200 Atte Andr? Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi When I run pd the first time it takes a while to load, the second time it's much faster. I use a bash script to load my session (ardour, muse, pd + more) so if pd isn't running before muse, muse can't connect it's midi outs to pd's midi in. I assume the load time is a matter of loading a binary, that's cached the second time. If so, where's the big binary? I tried running cat /usr/local/bin/pd /dev/null in the beginning of my bash script, but that didn't seem to work. If the above is a blind alley, whe could be done to speed up pd loadtime the first time? NB: pd is version 0.40.3, and I'm running debian/linux... -- peace, love harmony Atte http://atte.dk | http://myspace.com/attejensen http://anagrammer.dk | http://modlys.dk ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Use the source ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]ICQ: 96771783 http://tim.klingt.org Linux is like a wigwam: no windows, no gates, apache inside, stable. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] linux - faster load first time
On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 09:15:06AM -0700, Miller Puckette wrote: Hmm, now has anyone noticed that Pd (first time after booting) starts up progressively more slowly over the months you own a linux machine? I'm suspicious that there's a correlation with how much software you have loaded on the machine. Maybe having lots of shared libraries and programs to use them makes dynamic linking slower (see, e.g., 'man ldconfig'). That's nothing but a guess. cheers Miller i think this is not what is happening really.. i noticed a slowdown when i added a huge bunch of externals with different paths to them. so now i removed all and set the nessary once in one locations but with subdirectories (by name, as appears in the cvs). this seems to be fine .. i think that ldconfig caches frequently used stuff in /etc/ld.conf.cache but still keeps only file descriptors in the memory .. On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 12:53:46AM +0100, Andy Farnell wrote: Yes this is page/cache feature and seen with many apps. If you have a very frequently used app that you want to load fast each time then consider creating a RAM disk. Study Knoppix and Puredyne to see that in action. A start script to load Pd bins into RAM and then set the path to them. Useful for performance situations maybe. On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:10:27 +0200 Atte Andr? Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi When I run pd the first time it takes a while to load, the second time it's much faster. I use a bash script to load my session (ardour, muse, pd + more) so if pd isn't running before muse, muse can't connect it's midi outs to pd's midi in. I assume the load time is a matter of loading a binary, that's cached the second time. If so, where's the big binary? I tried running cat /usr/local/bin/pd /dev/null in the beginning of my bash script, but that didn't seem to work. If the above is a blind alley, whe could be done to speed up pd loadtime the first time? NB: pd is version 0.40.3, and I'm running debian/linux... -- peace, love harmony Atte http://atte.dk | http://myspace.com/attejensen http://anagrammer.dk | http://modlys.dk ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Use the source ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
