Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

2012-12-22 Thread Ed Kelly
Hey Mark,

RIAA - the original RIAA curve is the one, forget the variants, especially the 
IEC variety. 
It's a high-frequency pre-emphasis filter that overcomes the inherent surface 
noise of vinyl by boosting the HF, and reducing the. bass so that the needle 
doesn't jump out of the groove. 
Also, the curve you most commonly see is the reproduction (de-emphasis) curve 
(the one which slopes downwards) - this is irrelevant, since anything you play 
the vinyl back on will have this frequency response built-in. The recording 
curve is the one which matters -  I think it should not be too hard to 
implement the original equation in C, or even using exp~ or fexp~ - just to 
send it to the lathe.

The problem is that the mechanical nature of vinyl means that, a standard 
6dB/octave single-pole highpass filter won't work, because the amplification 
needed to restore the bass would be too great. It's a sort of kinked highpass 
filter. See this 
article: http://www.stereophile.com/features/cut_and_thrust_riaa_lp_equalization

Also, the mix must be mono compatible. This mostly means keeping bass 
frequencies in-phase and trying to make everything below about 220Hz mono.

Metastudio 4. I call that a lost metastudio, because I variously did and 
didn't distribute (leak) it on a personal basis (I was slack/busy, I had kids, 
you know...)

Metastudio 5 on the other hand, is currently being worked on. New synthesis 
units based on analogue wavefolding techniques, the tracker sequencer with cut 
and paste, and the quadtracker - a monster 4-channel tracker style sequencer. I 
need to write a whole load of help files this time also, and some more 
explicative performance patches...early 2013

Cheers,
Ed
 
Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
http://sharktracks.co.uk/




 From: me.grimm megr...@gmail.com
To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk 
Cc: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at 
Sent: Friday, 21 December 2012, 14:40
Subject: Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd
 

hey all thanks for the tips!

nicolas: your phasemeter looks great. i will use that.

but what is a riaa filter then? is there an implementation in pd? from eds 
link it looks like there is two such curves. one original RIAA curve and the 
other as RIAA/IEC curve.

btw nicolas your website looks super great and slick. im curious on the 
topography record you made. any for sale? sound samples?

ed: thanks for reminding me of your metastudio project. i just revisited and 
remembered all the nice stuff you had going on. were not you promoting a 
version 4 at one point? what happened to that?

hopefully ill get something cutting over break before the next semester starts!

m


On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

These are some abstractions I have made that do some of what you are 
asking...the compressor~ is vanilla.
Mastering is primarily about developing golden ears but you also need to 
take into account the RIAA curve: http://www.tanker.se/lidstrom/riaa.htm

Remember it's mechanical - I understand that once the RIAA is taken into 
account, the most pressing issue is bass - extreme bass and the needle jumps, 
too much and the track is too wide so you get less time. If it's set up wrong 
then tracks will overlap (but there could be some interesting jumping 
record experiments in there. 

Best,
Ed
 
Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
http://sharktracks.co.uk/




- Original Message -
 From: Lorenzo Sutton lorenzofsut...@gmail.com
 To: pd-list@iem.at
 Cc:
 Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2012, 21:23
 Subject: Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd



 On 19/12/12 03:10, me.grimm wrote:
  does anyone know much about mastering? i dont.

  anyway i have this record recorder/cutter/lathe and was thinking of
  doing something like this:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnpXVUKXM0

 Very interesting--- thanks for sharing, I couldn't resist noting (and
 continuously concentrating) on the ground loop (maybe empathised by the
 woofer..) I'm not totally sure that was intended though ..

  which is funny because i have a similar recorder. although i was
  thinking just cutting in real-time straight from PD. but to get the best
  sound maybe i could run it through some kind of mastering
 patch. has
  anyone made such a thing or know best to do in terms of getting decent
  masters right from PD? I would think something like:

 Emulating it as well? I know you lose all the materic thing, but it
 could be fun.

 The voice as heard in the video has something fascinating, it would be
 interesting to find out what modern digital audio compressions (data
 such as mp3, ogg etc. can create similar suggetions...)

 Lorenzo.

  [equilizer~] - but what one? [adaptive/nlms3~]? adaptive_equilization
  example which im not sure i would know how to use for this
  |
  [unauthorized/compressor~] - although there is prob a good vanilla one

Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

2012-12-22 Thread dreamer
On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 Hey Mark,

 RIAA - the original RIAA curve is the one, forget the variants, especially
 the IEC variety.
 It's a high-frequency pre-emphasis filter that overcomes the inherent
 surface noise of vinyl by boosting the HF, and reducing the. bass so that
 the needle doesn't jump out of the groove.


But doesn't this greatly matter on where on the vinyl you are? As the more
inner track takes a much more narrow curve, different frequencies in the
surface noise arrise. At least that's how I understand it and why mastering
for vinyl is quite a different trade as it is for other media.

drmr



 Also, the curve you most commonly see is the reproduction (de-emphasis)
 curve (the one which slopes downwards) - this is irrelevant, since anything
 you play the vinyl back on will have this frequency response built-in. The
 recording curve is the one which matters -  I think it should not be too
 hard to implement the original equation in C, or even using exp~ or fexp~ -
 just to send it to the lathe.

 The problem is that the mechanical nature of vinyl means that, a standard
 6dB/octave single-pole highpass filter won't work, because the
 amplification needed to restore the bass would be too great. It's a sort of
 kinked highpass filter. See this article:
 http://www.stereophile.com/features/cut_and_thrust_riaa_lp_equalization

 Also, the mix must be mono compatible. This mostly means keeping bass
 frequencies in-phase and trying to make everything below about 220Hz mono.

 Metastudio 4. I call that a lost metastudio, because I variously did and
 didn't distribute (leak) it on a personal basis (I was slack/busy, I had
 kids, you know...)

 Metastudio 5 on the other hand, is currently being worked on. New
 synthesis units based on analogue wavefolding techniques, the tracker
 sequencer with cut and paste, and the quadtracker - a monster 4-channel
 tracker style sequencer. I need to write a whole load of help files this
 time also, and some more explicative performance patches...early 2013

 Cheers,
 Ed

 Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
 http://sharktracks.co.uk/

   --
 *From:* me.grimm megr...@gmail.com
 *To:* Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk
 *Cc:* pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at
 *Sent:* Friday, 21 December 2012, 14:40

 *Subject:* Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

 hey all thanks for the tips!

 nicolas: your phasemeter looks great. i will use that.

 but what is a riaa filter then? is there an implementation in pd? from eds
 link it looks like there is two such curves. one original RIAA curve and
 the other as RIAA/IEC curve.

 btw nicolas your website looks super great and slick. im curious on the
 topography record you made. any for sale? sound samples?

 ed: thanks for reminding me of your metastudio project. i just revisited
 and remembered all the nice stuff you had going on. were not you promoting
 a version 4 at one point? what happened to that?

 hopefully ill get something cutting over break before the next semester
 starts!

 m

 On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 These are some abstractions I have made that do some of what you are
 asking...the compressor~ is vanilla.
 Mastering is primarily about developing golden ears but you also need to
 take into account the RIAA curve: http://www.tanker.se/lidstrom/riaa.htm

 Remember it's mechanical - I understand that once the RIAA is taken into
 account, the most pressing issue is bass - extreme bass and the needle
 jumps, too much and the track is too wide so you get less time. If it's set
 up wrong then tracks will overlap (but there could be some interesting
 jumping record experiments in there.

 Best,
 Ed

 Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
 http://sharktracks.co.uk/



 - Original Message -
  From: Lorenzo Sutton lorenzofsut...@gmail.com
  To: pd-list@iem.at
  Cc:
  Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2012, 21:23
  Subject: Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd
 
 
 
  On 19/12/12 03:10, me.grimm wrote:
   does anyone know much about mastering? i dont.
 
   anyway i have this record recorder/cutter/lathe and was thinking of
   doing something like this:
 
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnpXVUKXM0
 
  Very interesting--- thanks for sharing, I couldn't resist noting (and
  continuously concentrating) on the ground loop (maybe empathised by the
  woofer..) I'm not totally sure that was intended though ..
 
   which is funny because i have a similar recorder. although i was
   thinking just cutting in real-time straight from PD. but to get the
 best
   sound maybe i could run it through some kind of mastering
  patch. has
   anyone made such a thing or know best to do in terms of getting decent
   masters right from PD? I would think something like:
 
  Emulating it as well? I know you lose all the materic thing, but it
  could be fun

Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

2012-12-21 Thread me.grimm
hey all thanks for the tips!

nicolas: your phasemeter looks great. i will use that.

but what is a riaa filter then? is there an implementation in pd? from eds
link it looks like there is two such curves. one original RIAA curve and
the other as RIAA/IEC curve.

btw nicolas your website looks super great and slick. im curious on the
topography record you made. any for sale? sound samples?

ed: thanks for reminding me of your metastudio project. i just revisited
and remembered all the nice stuff you had going on. were not you promoting
a version 4 at one point? what happened to that?

hopefully ill get something cutting over break before the next semester
starts!

m

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 These are some abstractions I have made that do some of what you are
 asking...the compressor~ is vanilla.
 Mastering is primarily about developing golden ears but you also need to
 take into account the RIAA curve: http://www.tanker.se/lidstrom/riaa.htm

 Remember it's mechanical - I understand that once the RIAA is taken into
 account, the most pressing issue is bass - extreme bass and the needle
 jumps, too much and the track is too wide so you get less time. If it's set
 up wrong then tracks will overlap (but there could be some interesting
 jumping record experiments in there.

 Best,
 Ed

 Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
 http://sharktracks.co.uk/



 - Original Message -
  From: Lorenzo Sutton lorenzofsut...@gmail.com
  To: pd-list@iem.at
  Cc:
  Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2012, 21:23
  Subject: Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd
 
 
 
  On 19/12/12 03:10, me.grimm wrote:
   does anyone know much about mastering? i dont.
 
   anyway i have this record recorder/cutter/lathe and was thinking of
   doing something like this:
 
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnpXVUKXM0
 
  Very interesting--- thanks for sharing, I couldn't resist noting (and
  continuously concentrating) on the ground loop (maybe empathised by the
  woofer..) I'm not totally sure that was intended though ..
 
   which is funny because i have a similar recorder. although i was
   thinking just cutting in real-time straight from PD. but to get the
 best
   sound maybe i could run it through some kind of mastering
  patch. has
   anyone made such a thing or know best to do in terms of getting decent
   masters right from PD? I would think something like:
 
  Emulating it as well? I know you lose all the materic thing, but it
  could be fun.
 
  The voice as heard in the video has something fascinating, it would be
  interesting to find out what modern digital audio compressions (data
  such as mp3, ogg etc. can create similar suggetions...)
 
  Lorenzo.
 
   [equilizer~] - but what one? [adaptive/nlms3~]? adaptive_equilization
   example which im not sure i would know how to use for this
   |
   [unauthorized/compressor~] - although there is prob a good vanilla one
 no?
   |
   [expander~] ???
   |
   [exciter~]
   |
   [zexy/limiter~]
   |
   [hip~ 40]
   |
   [lop~ 16000]
   |
   [dac~]
 
 
   but i might just make a mess with this
 
   m
 
 
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   UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -
  http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
 
 
 
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megr...@gmail.com
_
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Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

2012-12-20 Thread Ed Kelly
These are some abstractions I have made that do some of what you are 
asking...the compressor~ is vanilla.
Mastering is primarily about developing golden ears but you also need to take 
into account the RIAA curve: http://www.tanker.se/lidstrom/riaa.htm

Remember it's mechanical - I understand that once the RIAA is taken into 
account, the most pressing issue is bass - extreme bass and the needle jumps, 
too much and the track is too wide so you get less time. If it's set up wrong 
then tracks will overlap (but there could be some interesting jumping record 
experiments in there. 

Best,
Ed
 
Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics!
http://sharktracks.co.uk/



- Original Message -
 From: Lorenzo Sutton lorenzofsut...@gmail.com
 To: pd-list@iem.at
 Cc: 
 Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2012, 21:23
 Subject: Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd
 
 
 
 On 19/12/12 03:10, me.grimm wrote:
  does anyone know much about mastering? i dont.
 
  anyway i have this record recorder/cutter/lathe and was thinking of
  doing something like this:
 
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnpXVUKXM0
 
 Very interesting--- thanks for sharing, I couldn't resist noting (and 
 continuously concentrating) on the ground loop (maybe empathised by the 
 woofer..) I'm not totally sure that was intended though ..
 
  which is funny because i have a similar recorder. although i was
  thinking just cutting in real-time straight from PD. but to get the best
  sound maybe i could run it through some kind of mastering 
 patch. has
  anyone made such a thing or know best to do in terms of getting decent
  masters right from PD? I would think something like:
 
 Emulating it as well? I know you lose all the materic thing, but it 
 could be fun.
 
 The voice as heard in the video has something fascinating, it would be 
 interesting to find out what modern digital audio compressions (data 
 such as mp3, ogg etc. can create similar suggetions...)
 
 Lorenzo.
 
  [equilizer~] - but what one? [adaptive/nlms3~]? adaptive_equilization
  example which im not sure i would know how to use for this
  |
  [unauthorized/compressor~] - although there is prob a good vanilla one no?
  |
  [expander~] ???
  |
  [exciter~]
  |
  [zexy/limiter~]
  |
  [hip~ 40]
  |
  [lop~ 16000]
  |
  [dac~]
 
 
  but i might just make a mess with this
 
  m
 
 
  ___
  Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
  UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - 
 http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
 
 
 
 ___
 Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
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Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

2012-12-19 Thread Nicolas Montgermont

Hello,

I've done vinyl cutting from pd. One thing important is to have the low 
frequency in phase.
It means you must reduce the stereo component under a certain frequency 
(ex: 100Hz) and only keep mono.
If it's not mono (engraved horizontally) the stereo component (engraved 
vertically) of the basses will make the groove jump up and down.
You can use my phasemeter abstractions (joined) to check your signal, 
mono is vertical, stereo is horizontal.


Don't forget to use a RIAA filter to reduce the importance of basses as 
well.


Best,
Nicolas

Le 19/12/12 07:30, Richie Cyngler a écrit :
Thanks for the amazing vid. I've been thinking about a homemade record 
lathe for some time now. The disposable plate idea is genius.



On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:10 PM, me.grimm megr...@gmail.com 
mailto:megr...@gmail.com wrote:


does anyone know much about mastering? i dont.

anyway i have this record recorder/cutter/lathe and was thinking
of doing something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnpXVUKXM0

which is funny because i have a similar recorder. although i was
thinking just cutting in real-time straight from PD. but to get
the best sound maybe i could run it through some kind of
mastering patch. has anyone made such a thing or know best to do
in terms of getting decent masters right from PD? I would think
something like:

[equilizer~] - but what one? [adaptive/nlms3~]?
adaptive_equilization example which im not sure i would know how
to use for this
|
[unauthorized/compressor~] - although there is prob a good vanilla
one no?
|
[expander~] ???
|
[exciter~]
|
[zexy/limiter~]
|
[hip~ 40]
|
[lop~ 16000]
|
[dac~]


but i might just make a mess with this

m

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--
Richie

www.glitchpop.com http://www.glitchpop.com



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Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

2012-12-19 Thread Lorenzo Sutton



On 19/12/12 03:10, me.grimm wrote:

does anyone know much about mastering? i dont.

anyway i have this record recorder/cutter/lathe and was thinking of
doing something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnpXVUKXM0


Very interesting--- thanks for sharing, I couldn't resist noting (and 
continuously concentrating) on the ground loop (maybe empathised by the 
woofer..) I'm not totally sure that was intended though ..


which is funny because i have a similar recorder. although i was
thinking just cutting in real-time straight from PD. but to get the best
sound maybe i could run it through some kind of mastering patch. has
anyone made such a thing or know best to do in terms of getting decent
masters right from PD? I would think something like:


Emulating it as well? I know you lose all the materic thing, but it 
could be fun.


The voice as heard in the video has something fascinating, it would be 
interesting to find out what modern digital audio compressions (data 
such as mp3, ogg etc. can create similar suggetions...)


Lorenzo.


[equilizer~] - but what one? [adaptive/nlms3~]? adaptive_equilization
example which im not sure i would know how to use for this
|
[unauthorized/compressor~] - although there is prob a good vanilla one no?
|
[expander~] ???
|
[exciter~]
|
[zexy/limiter~]
|
[hip~ 40]
|
[lop~ 16000]
|
[dac~]


but i might just make a mess with this

m


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Re: [PD] mastering to vinyl live w/ pd

2012-12-18 Thread Richie Cyngler
Thanks for the amazing vid. I've been thinking about a homemade record
lathe for some time now. The disposable plate idea is genius.


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:10 PM, me.grimm megr...@gmail.com wrote:

 does anyone know much about mastering? i dont.

 anyway i have this record recorder/cutter/lathe and was thinking of doing
 something like this:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDnpXVUKXM0

 which is funny because i have a similar recorder. although i was thinking
 just cutting in real-time straight from PD. but to get the best sound maybe
 i could run it through some kind of mastering patch. has anyone made such
 a thing or know best to do in terms of getting decent masters right from
 PD? I would think something like:

 [equilizer~] - but what one? [adaptive/nlms3~]? adaptive_equilization
 example which im not sure i would know how to use for this
 |
 [unauthorized/compressor~] - although there is prob a good vanilla one no?
 |
 [expander~] ???
 |
 [exciter~]
 |
 [zexy/limiter~]
 |
 [hip~ 40]
 |
 [lop~ 16000]
 |
 [dac~]


 but i might just make a mess with this

 m

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 UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -
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-- 
Richie

www.glitchpop.com
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