Re: [PD] Tcl 8.4 /8.5 on mac-ppc

[rolfm]

From: sebfumas...@aol.com
To: ro...@dds.nl, pd-list@lists.iem.at
Subject: Re: [PD] Tcl 8.4 /8.5 on mac-ppc
Message-ID: <16361798739-179d-4...@webjas-vad222.srv.aolmail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


I don't know the specifics but you could use the ox-app.sh script in
the mac directory of the the source tree after building pd.
e.g. osx-app.sh --tk 8.5.19 as the help option -h shows. (so just cd
to the /mac directory and run the script)


great hint. very clear explanation what should be possible.
however, it didn't work because of problems with SSL certificates,
for which i  don't have a solution.
(the output is at the end of this mail)

@IOhannes


-should it then be necessary/possible to compile Pd with this Tcl 8.5


the good thing is, you don't need to compile Pd with Tcl/Tk *at all*.
Wish (the Tcl/Tk interpreter), is a standalone program that is started
by Pd and interprets Pd's tcl/tk commands.
you should be able to replace the embedded Wish implementation by a
newer version.


i had a look at that.
the Pd-tree of the 'regular' mac version differs from the ppc one.
it has a "frameworks" folder (with Tcl in it) that's not in the ppc one.

furthermore, it's unclear for me what exactly is part of the embedded 
Wish implementation.

i tried replacing the whole tcl folder, to no avail.



btw, you could also consider installing Debian on your ppc to get newer
software.


nice try.
my cooperation is with other people with old and new macs,
for whom Linux is out of the question.



i don't remember the details, but maybe kiosk-plugin doesn't *really*
require tcl/tk 8.5 (and just assumes it does).
you could try removing the version from kiosk-plugin.tcl:9 (so it only
reads `package require Tcl`), and see whether it bites back.


i did that already. it bites back.

rolf

OUTPUT

maccie:mac rolfmeesters$ ./osx-app.sh --tk 8.5.19 0.48-1
Using custom 8.5.19 Wish.app
 Creating Tcl/Tk Wish-8.5.19.app
  % Total% Received % Xferd  Average Speed   TimeTime Time  
Current
 Dload  Upload   Total   SpentLeft  
Speed
100   345  100   3450 0 21  0  0:00:16  0:00:15  0:00:01 
0
curl: (60) SSL certificate problem, verify that the CA cert is OK. 
Details:
error:14090086:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_SERVER_CERTIFICATE:certificate 
verify failed

More details here: http://curl.haxx.se/docs/sslcerts.html

curl performs SSL certificate verification by default, using a "bundle"
 of Certificate Authority (CA) public keys (CA certs). The default
 bundle is named curl-ca-bundle.crt; you can specify an alternate file
 using the --cacert option.
If this HTTPS server uses a certificate signed by a CA represented in
 the bundle, the certificate verification probably failed due to a
 problem with the certificate (it might be expired, or the name might
 not match the domain name in the URL).
If you'd like to turn off curl's verification of the certificate, use
 the -k (or --insecure) option.

(i tried the suggestion of 'curl -insecure' but i needs an URL which i 
don't know)


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Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Ingo Stock]

Now this works without error messages, combining some of the approaches
in this thread.

ingo


On 05/15/2018 03:47 PM, Ingo Stock wrote:
> But it works by creating the message with set and changing messages!
> 
> [set obj 30 30 array define, adddollsym $2-$3( --> [( does the trick.
> 
> See also attached working demo.
> 
> 
> On 05/15/2018 03:26 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
>> On Tue, 2018-05-15 at 14:09 +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
 [obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
>>>
>>> this only works as long as you don't save and reopen the patch, where
>>> "$$1" will become "$\$1" (which is resolved to "$\\$1" instead of
>>> "\\$1").
>>
>> I see. Thanks for pointing it out.
>>
>> Roman
>>
>>
>>
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#X msg 37 103 5;
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#X obj 97 172 mod;
#X obj 37 126 t f f b;
#X msg 139 149 clear;
#N canvas 749 289 231 201 \$0-arrays 1;
#X obj 30 30 array define \$0-snd0;
#X obj 30 53 array define \$0-snd1;
#X obj 30 76 array define \$0-snd2;
#X obj 30 99 array define \$0-snd3;
#X obj 30 122 array define \$0-snd4;
#X restore 37 34 pd \$0-arrays;
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#X obj 37 83 bng 15 250 50 0 empty empty write_to_text 17 7 0 10 -262144
-1 -1;
#X obj 139 172 text define -k \$0-arraynames;
#A set snd0 \; snd1 \; snd2 \; snd3 \; snd4 \;;
#X msg 74 425 0;
#X msg 37 540 obj 30 \$1 array define $\$2-snd4;
#X obj 254 327 loadbang;
#X msg 107 517 set obj 30 \, adddollar 1 \, add2 array define \, adddollsym
\$1;
#X obj 37 471 pack f f;
#X obj 37 402 t f b f;
#X obj 107 448 list fromsymbol;
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#X obj 107 471 list prepend 36 50 45;
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#X connect 15 0 16 0;
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#X connect 18 0 12 0;
#X connect 19 0 13 0;
#X connect 19 1 16 1;
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#X connect 21 0 29 0;
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#X connect 33 0 32 0;


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Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Ingo Stock]

But it works by creating the message with set and changing messages!

[set obj 30 30 array define, adddollsym $2-$3( --> [( does the trick.

See also attached working demo.


On 05/15/2018 03:26 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-05-15 at 14:09 +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
>>> [obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
>>
>> this only works as long as you don't save and reopen the patch, where
>> "$$1" will become "$\$1" (which is resolved to "$\\$1" instead of
>> "\\$1").
> 
> I see. Thanks for pointing it out.
> 
> Roman
> 
> 
> 
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#N canvas 181 88 734 679 12;
#X msg 39 116 5;
#X obj 39 162 until;
#X obj 39 185 f;
#X obj 69 185 + 1;
#X msg 39 208 symbol snd\$1;
#X obj 39 231 text set \$0-arraynames 1e+06;
#X obj 99 185 mod;
#X obj 39 139 t f f b;
#X msg 141 162 clear;
#N canvas 932 380 231 201 \$0-arrays 1;
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#X msg 141 369 clear;
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#X obj 39 323 text size \$0-arraynames;
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#X obj 39 392 f;
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#X obj 99 392 mod;
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#X obj 39 303 bng 15 250 50 0 empty empty create_arrays 17 7 0 10 -262144
-1 -1;
#X obj 39 346 t f f b;
#X obj 39 530 s pd-\$0-arrays;
#X obj 39 461 + 30;
#X obj 39 438 * 23;
#X obj 39 96 bng 15 250 50 0 empty empty write_to_text 17 7 0 10 -262144
-1 -1;
#X obj 141 185 text define -k \$0-arraynames;
#A set snd0 \; snd1 \; snd2 \; snd3 \; snd4 \;;
#X msg 76 438 0;
#X obj 39 484 pack f f s;
#X obj 39 415 t f b f b;
#X msg 39 507;
#X msg 123 484 set obj 30 \, adddollar 1 \, add2 array define \, adddollsym
\$2-\$3;
#X obj 256 340 loadbang;
#X msg 39 589 set obj 30 30 array define \, adddollsym \$2-\$3;
#X msg 39 612;
#X msg 256 363 set;
#X connect 0 0 7 0;
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Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Roman Haefeli]

On Tue, 2018-05-15 at 14:09 +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > [obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
> 
> this only works as long as you don't save and reopen the patch, where
> "$$1" will become "$\$1" (which is resolved to "$\\$1" instead of
> "\\$1").

I see. Thanks for pointing it out.

Roman

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Re: [PD] Fw: Re: Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Ingo Stock]

With both solutions the $ in the created arrays are escaped like [array
define \$0-snd0] and cannot be accessed by [array get $0-snd0].


On 05/15/2018 02:22 PM, Christof Ressi wrote:
> sorry, I think I misread your question. for what you want Jack's solution is 
> right. mine is for dynamically creating patch *files*.
> 
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 14:09 Uhr
>> Von: "Christof Ressi" 
>> An: "Roman Haefeli" 
>> Cc: pd-list@lists.iem.at
>> Betreff: Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?
>>
>>> [obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
>>
>> this only works as long as you don't save and reopen the patch, where "$$1" 
>> will become "$\$1" (which is resolved to "$\\$1" instead of "\\$1").
>>
>> this should do the trick: [0( --> [makefilename $%d] --> [;pd-mysubpatch obj 
>> 0 0 array define $1-snd0(
>>
>> one case where this is necessary is when you dynamically create pd patch 
>> files which take creation arguments or need $0-symbols.
>>
>> Christof
>>
>>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 13:52 Uhr
>>> Von: "Roman Haefeli" 
>>> An: pd-list@lists.iem.at
>>> Betreff: Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2018-05-15 at 04:15 -0700, Derek Kwan wrote:
 Hello list,

 Perhaps a bit of a long shot and pretty much the exact opposite of
 the $0
 in messages conversations as of late: Is there a way to NOT resolve
 dollar arguments in messages and/or objects?
>>>
>>> I think you cannot dynamically disable the resolution of dollar
>>> symbols.
>>>
 Example case: Lately for a project I've wanted to create vast swaths
 of
 [array define]s and I've done so with dynamic patching. Since I want
 their bound symbols to be something like "$0-snd0", "$0-snd1"
 $0"-snd2"... "$0-snd50", I DON'T want dollar arguments (particularly
 the
 $0) to resolve to anything
>>>
>>> Do I understand correctly that you want to be able to create those
>>> objects containing literal '$0'?
>>>
>>> You can "trick" Pd into creating a symbol that itself has a dollar
>>> variable:
>>>
>>> [0 (
>>> |
>>> [obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
>>> |
>>> [s canvas]
>>>
 . Similarly, I store filepath + array symbol
 pairs in texts to do a big load at the beginning and for right now
 and
 can always add the $0-bit via passing that symbol through a
 [makefilename], but I'm wondering if I can pass $0s unresolved into a
 text without having to manually type it in via the popup window.
>>>
>>> You could use the same trick.
>>>
 Of course I can always edit the patch in emacs/vim and do a
 search/replace, but I'm looking for an in-Pd solutions... Also for
 the
 array business I suppose I could do that via [clone], but that
 situation
 doesn't seem ideal either...
>>>
>>> I was just wondering why I haven't ever experienced the same need for
>>> literal dollar symbols in my patching career and realized that I never
>>> save dynamically created stuff. I rather let the dynamic stuff be
>>> created each time I load the patch. This way all dollar variables
>>> resolve to the currently correct value and I never bothered to use
>>> literal dollar signs in dynamic patching. Maybe I'm not fully
>>> understanding your case, but I can't see how having dynamically
>>> generated '$0' is useful in any way. Either you create all dynamic
>>> stuff from scratch, then you can as well use the value of $0 or you're
>>> saving stuff for later, but why do you need $0 then? Don't you rather
>>> want something fixed/controllable, that evaluates to the same value on
>>> each run?
>>>
>>> Roman
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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[PD] Fw: Re: Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Christof Ressi]

sorry, I think I misread your question. for what you want Jack's solution is 
right. mine is for dynamically creating patch *files*.

> Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 14:09 Uhr
> Von: "Christof Ressi" 
> An: "Roman Haefeli" 
> Cc: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> Betreff: Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?
>
> > [obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
> 
> this only works as long as you don't save and reopen the patch, where "$$1" 
> will become "$\$1" (which is resolved to "$\\$1" instead of "\\$1").
> 
> this should do the trick: [0( --> [makefilename $%d] --> [;pd-mysubpatch obj 
> 0 0 array define $1-snd0(
> 
> one case where this is necessary is when you dynamically create pd patch 
> files which take creation arguments or need $0-symbols.
> 
> Christof
> 
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 13:52 Uhr
> > Von: "Roman Haefeli" 
> > An: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> > Betreff: Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?
> >
> > On Tue, 2018-05-15 at 04:15 -0700, Derek Kwan wrote:
> > > Hello list,
> > > 
> > > Perhaps a bit of a long shot and pretty much the exact opposite of
> > > the $0
> > > in messages conversations as of late: Is there a way to NOT resolve
> > > dollar arguments in messages and/or objects?
> > 
> > I think you cannot dynamically disable the resolution of dollar
> > symbols.
> > 
> > > Example case: Lately for a project I've wanted to create vast swaths
> > > of
> > > [array define]s and I've done so with dynamic patching. Since I want
> > > their bound symbols to be something like "$0-snd0", "$0-snd1"
> > > $0"-snd2"... "$0-snd50", I DON'T want dollar arguments (particularly
> > > the
> > > $0) to resolve to anything
> > 
> > Do I understand correctly that you want to be able to create those
> > objects containing literal '$0'?
> > 
> > You can "trick" Pd into creating a symbol that itself has a dollar
> > variable:
> > 
> > [0 (
> > |
> > [obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
> > |
> > [s canvas]
> > 
> > > . Similarly, I store filepath + array symbol
> > > pairs in texts to do a big load at the beginning and for right now
> > > and
> > > can always add the $0-bit via passing that symbol through a
> > > [makefilename], but I'm wondering if I can pass $0s unresolved into a
> > > text without having to manually type it in via the popup window.
> > 
> > You could use the same trick.
> > 
> > > Of course I can always edit the patch in emacs/vim and do a
> > > search/replace, but I'm looking for an in-Pd solutions... Also for
> > > the
> > > array business I suppose I could do that via [clone], but that
> > > situation
> > > doesn't seem ideal either...
> > 
> > I was just wondering why I haven't ever experienced the same need for
> > literal dollar symbols in my patching career and realized that I never
> > save dynamically created stuff. I rather let the dynamic stuff be
> > created each time I load the patch. This way all dollar variables
> > resolve to the currently correct value and I never bothered to use
> > literal dollar signs in dynamic patching. Maybe I'm not fully
> > understanding your case, but I can't see how having dynamically
> > generated '$0' is useful in any way. Either you create all dynamic
> > stuff from scratch, then you can as well use the value of $0 or you're
> > saving stuff for later, but why do you need $0 then? Don't you rather
> > want something fixed/controllable, that evaluates to the same value on
> > each run?
> > 
> > Roman
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
> > https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> > 
> 
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Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Jack]

Don't know if this could help for your case...
++

Jack



Le 15/05/2018 à 13:15, Derek Kwan a écrit :
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> Perhaps a bit of a long shot and pretty much the exact opposite of the $0
> in messages conversations as of late: Is there a way to NOT resolve
> dollar arguments in messages and/or objects?
> 
> Example case: Lately for a project I've wanted to create vast swaths of
> [array define]s and I've done so with dynamic patching. Since I want
> their bound symbols to be something like "$0-snd0", "$0-snd1"
> $0"-snd2"... "$0-snd50", I DON'T want dollar arguments (particularly the
> $0) to resolve to anything. Similarly, I store filepath + array symbol
> pairs in texts to do a big load at the beginning and for right now and
> can always add the $0-bit via passing that symbol through a
> [makefilename], but I'm wondering if I can pass $0s unresolved into a
> text without having to manually type it in via the popup window.
> 
> Of course I can always edit the patch in emacs/vim and do a
> search/replace, but I'm looking for an in-Pd solutions... Also for the
> array business I suppose I could do that via [clone], but that situation
> doesn't seem ideal either...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Derek
> 



not_resolving_dollar.pd
Description: application/extension-pd
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Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Ingo Stock]

Hi,

usually this is not necessary. As $0 changes with every patch opening,
the dynamically created objects containing $0 must be recreated again
every time. $0 resolves to an actual number in this process (i.e. 1023),
but this is alright, as you can access 1023-array1 through [array get
$0-array1] (if $0 equals 1023 in that session).

I attached a demo patch that shows how it can be done (even without
[makefilename]).

best wishes, ingo


On 05/15/2018 01:15 PM, Derek Kwan wrote:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> Perhaps a bit of a long shot and pretty much the exact opposite of the $0
> in messages conversations as of late: Is there a way to NOT resolve
> dollar arguments in messages and/or objects?
> 
> Example case: Lately for a project I've wanted to create vast swaths of
> [array define]s and I've done so with dynamic patching. Since I want
> their bound symbols to be something like "$0-snd0", "$0-snd1"
> $0"-snd2"... "$0-snd50", I DON'T want dollar arguments (particularly the
> $0) to resolve to anything. Similarly, I store filepath + array symbol
> pairs in texts to do a big load at the beginning and for right now and
> can always add the $0-bit via passing that symbol through a
> [makefilename], but I'm wondering if I can pass $0s unresolved into a
> text without having to manually type it in via the popup window.
> 
> Of course I can always edit the patch in emacs/vim and do a
> search/replace, but I'm looking for an in-Pd solutions... Also for the
> array business I suppose I could do that via [clone], but that situation
> doesn't seem ideal either...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Derek
> 
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#X connect 0 0 7 0;
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#X connect 17 0 24 2;
#X connect 18 0 12 0;
#X connect 19 0 23 0;
#X connect 19 1 17 0;
#X connect 20 0 13 0;
#X connect 20 1 16 1;
#X connect 20 2 10 0;
#X connect 22 0 24 0;
#X connect 23 0 22 0;
#X connect 24 0 25 0;
#X connect 25 0 21 0;
#X connect 26 0 0 0;


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Re: [PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Roman Haefeli]

On Tue, 2018-05-15 at 04:15 -0700, Derek Kwan wrote:
> Hello list,
> 
> Perhaps a bit of a long shot and pretty much the exact opposite of
> the $0
> in messages conversations as of late: Is there a way to NOT resolve
> dollar arguments in messages and/or objects?

I think you cannot dynamically disable the resolution of dollar
symbols.

> Example case: Lately for a project I've wanted to create vast swaths
> of
> [array define]s and I've done so with dynamic patching. Since I want
> their bound symbols to be something like "$0-snd0", "$0-snd1"
> $0"-snd2"... "$0-snd50", I DON'T want dollar arguments (particularly
> the
> $0) to resolve to anything

Do I understand correctly that you want to be able to create those
objects containing literal '$0'?

You can "trick" Pd into creating a symbol that itself has a dollar
variable:

[0 (
|
[obj 20 20 array define $$1-snd0]
|
[s canvas]

> . Similarly, I store filepath + array symbol
> pairs in texts to do a big load at the beginning and for right now
> and
> can always add the $0-bit via passing that symbol through a
> [makefilename], but I'm wondering if I can pass $0s unresolved into a
> text without having to manually type it in via the popup window.

You could use the same trick.

> Of course I can always edit the patch in emacs/vim and do a
> search/replace, but I'm looking for an in-Pd solutions... Also for
> the
> array business I suppose I could do that via [clone], but that
> situation
> doesn't seem ideal either...

I was just wondering why I haven't ever experienced the same need for
literal dollar symbols in my patching career and realized that I never
save dynamically created stuff. I rather let the dynamic stuff be
created each time I load the patch. This way all dollar variables
resolve to the currently correct value and I never bothered to use
literal dollar signs in dynamic patching. Maybe I'm not fully
understanding your case, but I can't see how having dynamically
generated '$0' is useful in any way. Either you create all dynamic
stuff from scratch, then you can as well use the value of $0 or you're
saving stuff for later, but why do you need $0 then? Don't you rather
want something fixed/controllable, that evaluates to the same value on
each run?

Roman





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[PD] Escaping/not resolving dollar argts in msgs/objects?

[Derek Kwan]

Hello list,

Perhaps a bit of a long shot and pretty much the exact opposite of the $0
in messages conversations as of late: Is there a way to NOT resolve
dollar arguments in messages and/or objects?

Example case: Lately for a project I've wanted to create vast swaths of
[array define]s and I've done so with dynamic patching. Since I want
their bound symbols to be something like "$0-snd0", "$0-snd1"
$0"-snd2"... "$0-snd50", I DON'T want dollar arguments (particularly the
$0) to resolve to anything. Similarly, I store filepath + array symbol
pairs in texts to do a big load at the beginning and for right now and
can always add the $0-bit via passing that symbol through a
[makefilename], but I'm wondering if I can pass $0s unresolved into a
text without having to manually type it in via the popup window.

Of course I can always edit the patch in emacs/vim and do a
search/replace, but I'm looking for an in-Pd solutions... Also for the
array business I suppose I could do that via [clone], but that situation
doesn't seem ideal either...

Thanks!

Derek

-- 
Derek Kwan
www.derekxkwan.com

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Re: [PD] Tcl 8.4 /8.5 on mac-ppc

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2018-05-14 21:34, ro...@dds.nl wrote:
> 
> -should it then be necessary/possible to compile Pd with this Tcl 8.5

the good thing is, you don't need to compile Pd with Tcl/Tk *at all*.
Wish (the Tcl/Tk interpreter), is a standalone program that is started
by Pd and interprets Pd's tcl/tk commands.
you should be able to replace the embedded Wish implementation by a
newer version.

> -how to get Tcl 8.5 for a mac-ppc

i have no clue.
not even, whether there are binaries available at all.

btw, you could also consider installing Debian on your ppc to get newer
software.

> 
> (other then the kiosk-plugin, everything works with my patches on
> mac-ppc as well as Windows 10).
i don't remember the details, but maybe kiosk-plugin doesn't *really*
require tcl/tk 8.5 (and just assumes it does).
you could try removing the version from kiosk-plugin.tcl:9 (so it only
reads `package require Tcl`), and see whether it bites back.

fgamsdr
IOhannes



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