Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

I believe a lot of the original GUI rewrite has been incorporated into Pd 
Vanilla.  At least the part where pd.tk was broken into separate tcl packages.
-Jonathan
 

 On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 10:14 PM, Seb Shader via Pd-list 
 wrote:
   

 It seems that the main/only thing to do in order to update the Pd-extended 
core is to update vanilla to incorporate the GUI rewrite stuff, as well as 
closebang and initbang (what other things?).It seems that someone just needs to 
go through and copy all of the code directly, deciding which GUI things to keep 
and which to discard
 -Sebastian
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Simon Wise]

On 05/03/15 14:12, Seb Shader via Pd-list wrote:

It seems that the main/only thing to do in order to update the Pd-extended
core is to update vanilla to incorporate the GUI rewrite stuff, as well as
closebang and initbang (what other things?). It seems that someone just needs
to go through and copy all of the code directly, deciding which GUI things to
keep and which to discard


isn't that exactly what has already been done in the last few versions of 
vanilla?

And if you take a different view of the appropriate things to include, of 
backward compatibility, of the pace of changes, of how desirable a fancier 
'modernised' GUI is etc then there has been a lot of that done in pd-l2ork as well.


The other issue lurking in the background with libraries is that copyleft 
licensing is avoided by vanilla and by those who need to comply with Apple's 
conditions for their app stores and mainstream access to their platform.


Simon

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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Seb Shader via Pd-list]

It seems that the main/only thing to do in order to update the Pd-extended core 
is to update vanilla to incorporate the GUI rewrite stuff, as well as closebang 
and initbang (what other things?).
It seems that someone just needs to go through and copy all of the code 
directly, deciding which GUI things to keep and which to discard


-Sebastian
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Simon Wise]

On 05/03/15 03:43, Martin Peach wrote:

You can build single libraries in the sourceforge repository at
http://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/svn/HEAD/tree/trunk/
Run make in the externals directory with the name of the library, for
example 'make cyclone'. The valid commands are all in the
externals/Makefile.




A problem with this for WindowsOS is that vanilla is built with MSVC and
extended with MinGW, they use different c runtime libraries, so some things
like file operations will crash Pd.


that certainly makes it harder, and means an MSVC set up machine and work-flow 
is required.


Maybe if what is attractive about extended is a unified, libraries-included 
application with an improved GUI it would make more sense to work with the 
pd-l2ork team and build that for windows. They have often expressed a 
willingness to get it built, but a lack of time and a priority to re-base the 
GUI first so that, amongst other things, other OSes are easier.



Simon

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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

Hi Antonio,Unless I hit a snag, everything down to the box sizes and font 
choice will be the same.  This includes the one-window-per-canvas design.  Most 
of the core functionality covered by FLOSS should remain the same.  (Exceptions 
would be things like the styling of the preferences dialog, and curvy 
anti-aliased patch cords.)

What should be different, however, is that a lot of the graphics updates will 
be GPU accelerated.  So theoretically it should be possible to do stuff like 
coding up a PacMan clone and getting flawless graphics animation alongside 
realtime audio.  You can't do that currently with Tk GUI because it's too slow.
Additionally, it should be fairly straightforward to use any HTML5 app or UI to 
interface with Pd under this setup.  I don't have an API for it yet, but it'd 
be as simple as opening an html page in a new window and loading the pdgui 
node.js module I'm using to talk to Pd over the socket.  Then you can send 
messages from the app to the running Pd instance by using
pdgui.pdsend("foo 1 2 3 4");

That could be a really powerful little dev environment, because you can use any 
of the hundreds of HTML5 frameworks out there.  Plus all the GUI logic would 
run in the web page and leave the Pd process to deal exclusively with audio 
computation.  (But I still prefer leveraging data structures, because you don't 
have to learn HTML5 and can prototype and cross visual and aural boundaries 
more quickly.)

-Jonathan

 On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 7:20 AM, Antonio Roberts 
 wrote:
   

 > I'm making progress on the port of the GUI from Tk to Node-Webkit (or nw.js
> as its now called).  I've got the iemgui properties dialogs finished, plus
> some basic internationalization.
Cool! Do you have screenshots/snapshots of your efforts?

Also, I'm in the process of trying to get a team/event going to update
the PD Floss Manuals site. Do you think it's worth holding off until
the gui port is finished?

Antonio

On 3 March 2015 at 22:15, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list
 wrote:
> On 03/03/2015 10:42 AM, João Pais wrote:
>
> I can't do anything active (i.e. edit scripts, etc), but I could follow
> instructions - in case they're clear, and correct.
>
>
> I'm making progress on the port of the GUI from Tk to Node-Webkit (or nw.js
> as its now called).  I've got the iemgui properties dialogs finished, plus
> some basic internationalization.
>
> There is still a lot of development left to do, but already I can run
> patches, open/close subpatches, display data structures and interact with
> iemguis.  Once it has feature parity with Tk it will essentially be a
> replacement for Pd-Extended for Linux, OSX, and Windows (7 and beyond).
>
> What version of Windows are you using these days?  It looks like going
> forward nw.js will only compile on 64-bit versions of Windows, but it
> currently has 32-bit binaries.
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
> Joao
>
> 2015-03-03 15:05 GMT+01:00 Hans-Christoph Steiner :
>>
>>
>> Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep up
>> these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.
>>
>> .hc
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:
>>
>> > Hello list,
>> >
>> > I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended
>> > distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of 
>> > them
>> > with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is still from
>> > almost 2 years ago.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > jmmmp
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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>
>
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Martin Peach]

You can build single libraries in the sourceforge repository at
http://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/svn/HEAD/tree/trunk/
Run make in the externals directory with the name of the library, for
example 'make cyclone'. The valid commands are all in the
externals/Makefile.
A problem with this for WindowsOS is that vanilla is built with MSVC and
extended with MinGW, they use different c runtime libraries, so some things
like file operations will crash Pd.
Martin

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Simon Wise  wrote:

> On 05/03/15 01:38, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
>
>> It might work better to switch to a model of
>>> separately maintained libraries
>>>
>>
>> I vouch for that as well as I've been suggesting it too. In a sense we
>> could make it very easy to install "extended libraries" into vanilla.
>>
>
> isn't that already the case in linux ... quite a few libraries are
> individually packaged for debian, all of them for vanilla, they have a few
> maintainers but all that and where upstream is etc is documented within the
> packages and this is accessible directly on debian web pages. They end up
> ready to install in many linux distributions from there, and readily
> convertible to the other main linux packaging systems. Some other libraries
> are maintained elsewhere as drop-in folders.
>
> I guess the situation is much more limited for other OSes (I rarely use
> them) but if there are committed people from those then surely it is easier
> to build on the upstream sources and repositories that already exist??
>
> Without comparable OS wide packaging/distribution systems then building
> drop-in folders built for the most common variations of each OS would be
> the only sensible way to go.
>
> The libdir format is supported by the package listed here:
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/pd-libdir
>
> follow the links to the source and browse, eg in this case:
> http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-multimedia/pd-libdir.git/tree/
>
> A hell of a lot of work is waiting there, ready to reuse in other OSes.
>
> Most of it listed in this search (though there are more):
> https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=names&keywords=pd-
>
> If you really want to run pd on sparc, there is where you may well find
> binaries that at least build, but you will also find working sources and
> all the appropriate links to upstream, licenses etc etc.
>
> And if there aren't many committed developers (with enough time) using the
> other OSes ... then nothing much is going to change. I get the impression
> that most active developers here use linux?? maybe I'm wrong? It would seem
> also to be the same with pd-l2ork.
>
>
>
>> Not that I want to see the end of Pd-Extended, quite the opposite. But it
>> seems a few changes need to be made in order for it to become more open as
>> well and easier to maintain the fixes. Perhaps in a similar fashion than
>> the "extended vanilla" idea.
>>
>> For example, the fixes that have already been made to the cyclone library,
>> why can't we see it being put into an update right away? And why can't we
>> download it and use it in Vanilla? It ain't right... the reasonable thing
>> is that the community could manage it faster by fixing it and making it
>> readily available for Extended and Vanilla.
>>
>> Obviously I know there are issues involved that I cannot even begin to
>> grasp for making things the way they are, but this is my two cents
>> anyway...
>>
>> cheers
>>
>>
>>
>>   seems that it is not To the contrary, but I find it particularly
>> problematic
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-03-03 17:44 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette:
>>
>>  It might work better to switch to a model of separately maintained
>>> libraries
>>> (as Joe Deken has suggested) - see the thread with subject line
>>> "Extending Vanilla []"
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> Miller
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 07:19:50PM +0100, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:
>>>


 On 2015-03-03 03:05 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

>
> Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep
>
 up these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.
>>>

>
 I want to participate in the maintenance, but it is probably much more
 complex than fixing some minor issues in cyclone. Assuming more people
 are interested but in a similar situation, is there a way to split it up
 in more manageable pieces? It would be more of a community effort then,
 which is always preferable.

  .hc
>

 Fred Jan

>
> On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:
>
>  Hello list,
>>
>> I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended
>>
> distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of
>>> them with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is
>>> still
>>> from almost 2 years ago.
>>>

>> Best,
>>
>> jmmmp
>>
>> ___
>> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing lis

Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Simon Wise]

On 05/03/15 01:38, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:

It might work better to switch to a model of
separately maintained libraries


I vouch for that as well as I've been suggesting it too. In a sense we
could make it very easy to install "extended libraries" into vanilla.


isn't that already the case in linux ... quite a few libraries are individually 
packaged for debian, all of them for vanilla, they have a few maintainers but 
all that and where upstream is etc is documented within the packages and this is 
accessible directly on debian web pages. They end up ready to install in many 
linux distributions from there, and readily convertible to the other main linux 
packaging systems. Some other libraries are maintained elsewhere as drop-in folders.


I guess the situation is much more limited for other OSes (I rarely use them) 
but if there are committed people from those then surely it is easier to build 
on the upstream sources and repositories that already exist??


Without comparable OS wide packaging/distribution systems then building drop-in 
folders built for the most common variations of each OS would be the only 
sensible way to go.


The libdir format is supported by the package listed here:
https://packages.debian.org/sid/pd-libdir

follow the links to the source and browse, eg in this case:
http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-multimedia/pd-libdir.git/tree/

A hell of a lot of work is waiting there, ready to reuse in other OSes.

Most of it listed in this search (though there are more):
https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=names&keywords=pd-

If you really want to run pd on sparc, there is where you may well find binaries 
that at least build, but you will also find working sources and all the 
appropriate links to upstream, licenses etc etc.


And if there aren't many committed developers (with enough time) using the other 
OSes ... then nothing much is going to change. I get the impression that most 
active developers here use linux?? maybe I'm wrong? It would seem also to be the 
same with pd-l2ork.




Not that I want to see the end of Pd-Extended, quite the opposite. But it
seems a few changes need to be made in order for it to become more open as
well and easier to maintain the fixes. Perhaps in a similar fashion than
the "extended vanilla" idea.

For example, the fixes that have already been made to the cyclone library,
why can't we see it being put into an update right away? And why can't we
download it and use it in Vanilla? It ain't right... the reasonable thing
is that the community could manage it faster by fixing it and making it
readily available for Extended and Vanilla.

Obviously I know there are issues involved that I cannot even begin to
grasp for making things the way they are, but this is my two cents anyway...

cheers



  seems that it is not To the contrary, but I find it particularly
problematic



2015-03-03 17:44 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette:


It might work better to switch to a model of separately maintained
libraries
(as Joe Deken has suggested) - see the thread with subject line
"Extending Vanilla []"

cheers
Miller

On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 07:19:50PM +0100, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:



On 2015-03-03 03:05 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:


Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep

up these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.




I want to participate in the maintenance, but it is probably much more
complex than fixing some minor issues in cyclone. Assuming more people
are interested but in a similar situation, is there a way to split it up
in more manageable pieces? It would be more of a community effort then,
which is always preferable.


.hc


Fred Jan


On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:


Hello list,

I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended

distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of
them with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is still
from almost 2 years ago.


Best,

jmmmp

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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

> It might work better to switch to a model of
> separately maintained libraries

I vouch for that as well as I've been suggesting it too. In a sense we
could make it very easy to install "extended libraries" into vanilla.

Not that I want to see the end of Pd-Extended, quite the opposite. But it
seems a few changes need to be made in order for it to become more open as
well and easier to maintain the fixes. Perhaps in a similar fashion than
the "extended vanilla" idea.

For example, the fixes that have already been made to the cyclone library,
why can't we see it being put into an update right away? And why can't we
download it and use it in Vanilla? It ain't right... the reasonable thing
is that the community could manage it faster by fixing it and making it
readily available for Extended and Vanilla.

Obviously I know there are issues involved that I cannot even begin to
grasp for making things the way they are, but this is my two cents anyway...

cheers



 seems that it is not To the contrary, but I find it particularly
problematic



2015-03-03 17:44 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette :

> It might work better to switch to a model of separately maintained
> libraries
> (as Joe Deken has suggested) - see the thread with subject line
> "Extending Vanilla []"
>
> cheers
> Miller
>
> On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 07:19:50PM +0100, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2015-03-03 03:05 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> > >
> > > Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep
> up these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.
> > >
> >
> > I want to participate in the maintenance, but it is probably much more
> > complex than fixing some minor issues in cyclone. Assuming more people
> > are interested but in a similar situation, is there a way to split it up
> > in more manageable pieces? It would be more of a community effort then,
> > which is always preferable.
> >
> > > .hc
> >
> > Fred Jan
> > >
> > > On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello list,
> > >>
> > >> I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended
> distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of
> them with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is still
> from almost 2 years ago.
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >>
> > >> jmmmp
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> > >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> >
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Antonio Roberts]

> I'm making progress on the port of the GUI from Tk to Node-Webkit (or nw.js
> as its now called).  I've got the iemgui properties dialogs finished, plus
> some basic internationalization.
Cool! Do you have screenshots/snapshots of your efforts?

Also, I'm in the process of trying to get a team/event going to update
the PD Floss Manuals site. Do you think it's worth holding off until
the gui port is finished?

Antonio

On 3 March 2015 at 22:15, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list
 wrote:
> On 03/03/2015 10:42 AM, João Pais wrote:
>
> I can't do anything active (i.e. edit scripts, etc), but I could follow
> instructions - in case they're clear, and correct.
>
>
> I'm making progress on the port of the GUI from Tk to Node-Webkit (or nw.js
> as its now called).  I've got the iemgui properties dialogs finished, plus
> some basic internationalization.
>
> There is still a lot of development left to do, but already I can run
> patches, open/close subpatches, display data structures and interact with
> iemguis.  Once it has feature parity with Tk it will essentially be a
> replacement for Pd-Extended for Linux, OSX, and Windows (7 and beyond).
>
> What version of Windows are you using these days?  It looks like going
> forward nw.js will only compile on 64-bit versions of Windows, but it
> currently has 32-bit binaries.
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
> Joao
>
> 2015-03-03 15:05 GMT+01:00 Hans-Christoph Steiner :
>>
>>
>> Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep up
>> these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.
>>
>> .hc
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:
>>
>> > Hello list,
>> >
>> > I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended
>> > distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of 
>> > them
>> > with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is still from
>> > almost 2 years ago.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > jmmmp
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
>> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

On 03/03/2015 10:42 AM, João Pais wrote:
I can't do anything active (i.e. edit scripts, etc), but I could 
follow instructions - in case they're clear, and correct.


I'm making progress on the port of the GUI from Tk to Node-Webkit (or 
nw.js as its now called).  I've got the iemgui properties dialogs 
finished, plus some basic internationalization.


There is still a lot of development left to do, but already I can run 
patches, open/close subpatches, display data structures and interact 
with iemguis.  Once it has feature parity with Tk it will essentially be 
a replacement for Pd-Extended for Linux, OSX, and Windows (7 and beyond).


What version of Windows are you using these days?  It looks like going 
forward nw.js will only compile on 64-bit versions of Windows, but it 
currently has 32-bit binaries.


-Jonathan



Joao

2015-03-03 15:05 GMT+01:00 Hans-Christoph Steiner >:



Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't
keep up these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.

.hc

On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended
distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently
(some of them with interesting developments), but the latest
pd-ext version is still from almost 2 years ago.
>
> Best,
>
> jmmmp
>
> ___
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Miller Puckette]

It might work better to switch to a model of separately maintained libraries
(as Joe Deken has suggested) - see the thread with subject line
"Extending Vanilla []"

cheers
Miller

On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 07:19:50PM +0100, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2015-03-03 03:05 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> > 
> > Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep up 
> > these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.
> > 
> 
> I want to participate in the maintenance, but it is probably much more
> complex than fixing some minor issues in cyclone. Assuming more people
> are interested but in a similar situation, is there a way to split it up
> in more manageable pieces? It would be more of a community effort then,
> which is always preferable.
> 
> > .hc
> 
> Fred Jan
> > 
> > On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:
> > 
> >> Hello list,
> >>
> >> I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended 
> >> distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of 
> >> them with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is 
> >> still from almost 2 years ago.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> jmmmp
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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> > 
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Fred Jan Kraan]

On 2015-03-03 03:05 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> 
> Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep up these 
> days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.
> 

I want to participate in the maintenance, but it is probably much more
complex than fixing some minor issues in cyclone. Assuming more people
are interested but in a similar situation, is there a way to split it up
in more manageable pieces? It would be more of a community effort then,
which is always preferable.

> .hc

Fred Jan
> 
> On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:
> 
>> Hello list,
>>
>> I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended distribution? 
>> Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of them with 
>> interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is still from 
>> almost 2 years ago.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> jmmmp
>>
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[João Pais]

I can't do anything active (i.e. edit scripts, etc), but I could follow
instructions - in case they're clear, and correct.

Joao

2015-03-03 15:05 GMT+01:00 Hans-Christoph Steiner :

>
> Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep up
> these days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.
>
> .hc
>
> On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:
>
> > Hello list,
> >
> > I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended
> distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of
> them with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is still
> from almost 2 years ago.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > jmmmp
> >
> > ___
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> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Re: [PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

Pd-extended is in need of a new maintainer.  Obviously, I can't keep up these 
days. I'm happy to help anyone get up to speed.

.hc

On Dec 24, 2014, at 2:00 PM, João Pais wrote:

> Hello list,
> 
> I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended distribution? 
> Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of them with 
> interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is still from almost 
> 2 years ago.
> 
> Best,
> 
> jmmmp
> 
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[PD] Updating Pd-Extended

[João Pais]

Hello list,

I wanted to ask, what is the current state of the pd-extended  
distribution? Pd-vanilla has had some regular updates recently (some of  
them with interesting developments), but the latest pd-ext version is  
still from almost 2 years ago.


Best,

jmmmp

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