Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 5/7/21 5:21 PM, Christof Ressi wrote:



> I think this has been discussed not too long ago.
> Maybe IOhannes remembers.

:-)

probably the discussion on [804]

to recap:
katja's original double-precision fixes (on which the current 
double-precision support is based) used different formats for displaying 
(and saving) numbers, based on whether you were using double precision 
or not.
i intentionally left this format magic out (because it also had 
undesired side-effects).


>
I'm not sure how to solve this... the problem is that "atom_string" is 
used to *save* and *display* floats, but these two operations don't 
require the same amount of precision.




yep.
i agree that we need two different atom2string converters for those two 
use-cases.

it would also solve the problem with spaces-in-symbols [824].


i've opened a feature-request [1310]

gfmsdra
IOhannes


[807] 
[824] 
[1310] 



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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[Christof Ressi]

The output looks entirely reasonable. Maybe your spreadsheet application 
expects floating pointer numbers in the German format (comma instead dot)? If 
yes, there surely is an option to change that. Either way, the problem is not 
on the side of Pd. ​

Am 9. Mai 2021, 18:36, um 18:36, ro...@dds.nl schrieb:
>Christof Ressi schreef op 09-05-2021 13:40:
>
>>Can you share the output?
>
>here's  a small part of it.
>
>putting the textfile into a spreadsheet (OpenOffice)
>
>only the %d data is seen as numbers.
>
>with [makefilename %d]
>49
>64
>81
>100
>121
>144
>169
>
>with [makefilename %.2f]
>49.00
>64.00
>81.00
>100.00
>121.00
>144.00
>169.00
>
>with [makefilename %f]
>49.00
>64.00
>81.00
>100.00
>121.00
>144.00
>169.00
>
>rolf
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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[rolfm]

Christof Ressi schreef op 09-05-2021 13:40: 

>Can you share the output? 

here's  a small part of it. 

putting the textfile into a spreadsheet (OpenOffice) 

only the %d data is seen as numbers. 

with [makefilename %d]
49
64
81
100
121
144
169

with [makefilename %.2f]
49.00
64.00
81.00
100.00
121.00
144.00
169.00

with [makefilename %f]
49.00
64.00
81.00
100.00
121.00
144.00
169.00

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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[Christof Ressi]

Can you share the output? ​

Am 9. Mai 2021, 13:21, um 13:21, ro...@dds.nl schrieb:
>thanks for the answers.
>
>i'm not asking about double-precision here.
>
>@Christof
>
> [makefilename %d]  together with [text] works: in the spreadsheet the
>'text'  in the output file is seen as numbers.
>
> with [makefilename %f]  this is not the case.
>
>rolf
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[rolfm]

thanks for the answers. 

i'm not asking about double-precision here. 

@Christof 

 [makefilename %d]  together with [text] works: in the spreadsheet the
'text'  in the output file is seen as numbers. 

 with [makefilename %f]  this is not the case. 

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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[Christof Ressi]

One has 64-bit address bus width and the other has 64-bit data bus width.
"double precision" has nothing to do with the data bus width. It just 
means that "t_float" and "t_sample" are defined as "double" instead of 
"float".


So "single precision"/"double precision" and "32-bit"/"64-bit" are 
really orthogonal. In fact, you can build a "32-bit double precision Pd".



Does the 'double-precision Pd' also save its patches to 6 significant digits?
I think so (prove me wrong!), because it foremost depends on the 
implementation of "%g" for "sprintf".


Christof

On 07.05.2021 18:15, Martin Peach wrote:

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:23 AM Christof Ressi  wrote:

Thanks for stressing the differences between 64bit and double precision!

The confusion persists though, as double precision is also 64-bit. One
has 64-bit address bus width and the other has 64-bit data bus width.
'64-bit Pd' appears to refer to the wide address version. So I guess
the wide data version is called 'double-precision Pd'? (although it
will also use the wide address bus)(the meaning of 'double precision'
is too ambiguous for me as it will change over time in a way that '64'
hopefully doesn't)
Does the 'double-precision Pd' also save its patches to 6 significant digits?
It is possible to write an external in 'normal' Pd that manipulates
numbers in whatever precision you like, you just can't save the
results unless you do so from within the same external.

Martin




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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[Martin Peach]

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:23 AM Christof Ressi  wrote:
>
> Thanks for stressing the differences between 64bit and double precision!

The confusion persists though, as double precision is also 64-bit. One
has 64-bit address bus width and the other has 64-bit data bus width.
'64-bit Pd' appears to refer to the wide address version. So I guess
the wide data version is called 'double-precision Pd'? (although it
will also use the wide address bus)(the meaning of 'double precision'
is too ambiguous for me as it will change over time in a way that '64'
hopefully doesn't)
Does the 'double-precision Pd' also save its patches to 6 significant digits?
It is possible to write an external in 'normal' Pd that manipulates
numbers in whatever precision you like, you just can't save the
results unless you do so from within the same external.

Martin



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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[Christof Ressi]

Thanks for stressing the differences between 64bit and double precision!

However, I think it's not about double precision, either. Single 
precision only becomes an issue if you need more than 23 bits precision 
(which is not the case here).


The actual issue is how Pd *prints* floating point numbers when writing 
text files. It uses the %g print specifier, which automatically switches 
to scientific notation beyond a certain number of digits. See the 
implementation of "atom_string".


My example with [makefilename %f] shows that you can indeed print/save 
numbers with much higher precision - without the need of double 
precision floating point numbers. But as you have correctly pointed out, 
excessive use can lead to "symbol table pollution". Note that Pd has 
recently increased the size of its symbol table by a factor of 16 
(https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/commit/36eefd23d793969d3c5c160d9986e0300c474bab), 
so the problem has been mitigated somehow, but not completely eliminated.


I'm not sure how to solve this... the problem is that "atom_string" is 
used to *save* and *display* floats, but these two operations don't 
require the same amount of precision.


I think this has been discussed not too long ago. Maybe IOhannes remembers.

Christof

On 07.05.2021 16:53, hans w. koch wrote:

there have been a few discussions around this last year (in which i was 
involved).

1. its not about pd 64bit (that is liekly already running on your machine)! its 
about pd double precision, which is possible to compile easily (as i found out, 
being a noob)

2. regarding the makefilename approach: be carefule, if you generate lots of 
numbers:
https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2020-10/128229.html

3. (one of) the other discussions: Problem With Correct Numbers In Pd Double 
Precision
https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2020-09/128107.html

it ain´t easy…




Am 07.05.2021 um 16:33 schrieb Christof Ressi :

If your numbers are integers, you can convert them to symbols with 
[makefilename %d] and add them to a text file, e.g. with [text set].

If the numbers are floats, you can use [makefilename %f]. Unlike %g, the %f 
specifier prevents the use of scientific notation. See also 
https://stackoverflow.com/a/5913115/6063908.

Works for me (tm).

Christof

On 07.05.2021 16:15, ro...@dds.nl wrote:

hi,

i'm struggling with the way Pd handles numbers bigger then 99.

i have an array with thousands of numbers, which i write to a file to analyse 
them.

however, as soon as a number is bigger then 99 i get the abbreviated 
notation and am loosing the lower digits.



in Pd i can make a big number showing all digits by transforming it into a 
symbol, e.g. with makefilename.

but a thus created text-file does not work in a spreadsheet.



probably there's a way to overcome this seemingly limitation, but i've not 
found it yet.

anybody with a hint?



rolf



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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[hans w. koch]

there have been a few discussions around this last year (in which i was 
involved).

1. its not about pd 64bit (that is liekly already running on your machine)! its 
about pd double precision, which is possible to compile easily (as i found out, 
being a noob)

2. regarding the makefilename approach: be carefule, if you generate lots of 
numbers:
https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2020-10/128229.html

3. (one of) the other discussions: Problem With Correct Numbers In Pd Double 
Precision
https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2020-09/128107.html

it ain´t easy…



> Am 07.05.2021 um 16:33 schrieb Christof Ressi :
> 
> If your numbers are integers, you can convert them to symbols with 
> [makefilename %d] and add them to a text file, e.g. with [text set].
> 
> If the numbers are floats, you can use [makefilename %f]. Unlike %g, the %f 
> specifier prevents the use of scientific notation. See also 
> https://stackoverflow.com/a/5913115/6063908.
> 
> Works for me (tm).
> 
> Christof
> 
> On 07.05.2021 16:15, ro...@dds.nl wrote:
>> hi,
>> 
>> i'm struggling with the way Pd handles numbers bigger then 99.
>> 
>> i have an array with thousands of numbers, which i write to a file to 
>> analyse them.
>> 
>> however, as soon as a number is bigger then 99 i get the abbreviated 
>> notation and am loosing the lower digits.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> in Pd i can make a big number showing all digits by transforming it into a 
>> symbol, e.g. with makefilename.
>> 
>> but a thus created text-file does not work in a spreadsheet.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> probably there's a way to overcome this seemingly limitation, but i've not 
>> found it yet.
>> 
>> anybody with a hint?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> rolf
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[Christof Ressi]

If your numbers are integers, you can convert them to symbols with 
[makefilename %d] and add them to a text file, e.g. with [text set].


If the numbers are floats, you can use [makefilename %f]. Unlike %g, the 
%f specifier prevents the use of scientific notation. See also 
https://stackoverflow.com/a/5913115/6063908.


Works for me (tm).

Christof

On 07.05.2021 16:15, ro...@dds.nl wrote:


hi,

i'm struggling with the way Pd handles numbers bigger then 99.

i have an array with thousands of numbers, which i write to a file to 
analyse them.


however, as soon as a number is bigger then 99 i get the 
abbreviated notation and am loosing the lower digits.



in Pd i can make a big number showing all digits by transforming it 
into a symbol, e.g. with makefilename.


but a thus created text-file does not work in a spreadsheet.


probably there's a way to overcome this seemingly limitation, but i've 
not found it yet.


anybody with a hint?


rolf


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Re: [PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[Martin Peach]

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 10:17 AM  wrote:
>
> hi,
>
> i'm struggling with the way Pd handles numbers bigger then 99.
>
> i have an array with thousands of numbers, which i write to a file to analyse 
> them.
>
> however, as soon as a number is bigger then 99 i get the abbreviated 
> notation and am loosing the lower digits.
>

This is because Pd rounds all numbers to six significant digits when
it writes hem to a file.
You could try using two arrays with the most and least significant
halves of the numbers in parallel.
Or wait for 64-bit Pd

Martin



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[PD] how to get big numbers from array into a file?

[rolfm]

hi, 

i'm struggling with the way Pd handles numbers bigger then 99. 

i have an array with thousands of numbers, which i write to a file to
analyse them. 

however, as soon as a number is bigger then 99 i get the abbreviated
notation and am loosing the lower digits. 

in Pd i can make a big number showing all digits by transforming it into
a symbol, e.g. with makefilename. 

but a thus created text-file does not work in a spreadsheet. 

probably there's a way to overcome this seemingly limitation, but i've
not found it yet. 

anybody with a hint? 

rolf___
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