Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em sáb., 27 de jan. de 2024 às 05:00, cyrille henry  escreveu:

> it's the masses that move!
> if you want to understand more, look at :
> http://www.chnry.net/ch/IMG/pdf/-2.pdf


already had this document, looks like a great source to dig in, I hope to
eventually get deep into this

thanks
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[cyrille henry]

Le 26/01/2024 à 23:35, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit :
...

by the way, Ben says there's a new pmpd version not up in deken yet, is that 
it? When can we have it if so?

I'm working in a new pmpd version that include the new pmpd2d~ and pmpd3d~. 
Nothing important change for the rest.
pmpd source are on my github :

https://github.com/ch-nry/pd_pmpd



They use the simple native Spring class for it, and I've been having my eye on 
that one, maybe one day including Spring and Ball/TBall into ELSE as well 
(spring~ and ball~?), cause it also seems like a fun thing to control several 
things in a patch.

You will face problem with spring~ and ball~ because of buffers, you better go 
for spring and ball.
and since a spring should also include damping element, let's call it "link".
And the ball have a null radius, they usually are called "mass" in the physical 
modelling world. (I don't know why SC try to be original and change the naming convention 
usually used)
So, this look a lot like pmpd, and after working with if for more than 20 
years, I can confirm that this is very fun!




Now let me see if I can get the main principal, is it like you have wave table 
points that move according to spring like motions when excited and evolving 
through time?


it's the masses that move!
if you want to understand more, look at :
http://www.chnry.net/ch/IMG/pdf/-2.pdf


cheers
c



thanks
cheers






___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Hi Cyrille, thanks for the detailed answers!

Em qua., 17 de jan. de 2024 às 05:48, cyrille henry  escreveu:

> Since this example is very simple, you should already have figured that it
> use gemhead as a metronome. (for obvious synchronisation reason)
>

I hadn't, I see now why it stopped working without Gem, will try to check
it again sometime soon, but I've been very busy with an update of ELSE and
my Tutorial. Ben Wesh at the discord channel is on fire though, doing some
amazing things and developing some scann synthesis patches with pmpd, I
will ask him for help figuring this all out.


> >other times it's something simple that doesn't make much sense to require
> a dependency,
> adding a dependency to remove a dependency, is a strange way to remove a
> dependency! ;-)
>

In PlugData, ELSE is native, so it is not a dependency, and if people are
using ELSE and my tutorial, then it doesn't require yet another extra
dependency.

But anyway, there's a billion things in my to do list before I tackle any
of this.

Em qua., 17 de jan. de 2024 às 05:37, cyrille henry  escreveu:

> from my experience, for complex movement and shape of the string, having a
> visualisation helps a lot. But it really depends on the way you play with
> it.
>

yeah, graphics are always nice eye candy :)

pdp_scan~ is not really a scann synthesis. But it's not very far, since it
> scann an array at sub-audio frequency.
>

cool, thanks, I will not consider it anymore as a source for scann
synthesis.


> all you need to explore scann synth is the pmpd lib and tabwrite / tabread~
> A scan synth external will be more limited that what pmpd + pd can already
> offer.
>

I see, it'd be a lower level solution that will always be more flexible and
versatile. I like the idea where I can offer something 'easy' and ready
made, then point people to the right patch if thy wanna get deep into the
rabbit hole. This looks like a good example.

by the way, Ben says there's a new pmpd version not up in deken yet, is
that it? When can we have it if so?

Now, while we're at it, let me share some other resources I found. Here's a
discussion in SuperCollider

https://sc-users.bham.ac.narkive.com/lYIbe3pZ/scanned-synthesis-in-sc

They use the simple native Spring class for it, and I've been having my eye
on that one, maybe one day including Spring and Ball/TBall into ELSE as
well (spring~ and ball~?), cause it also seems like a fun thing to control
several things in a patch.

Now let me see if I can get the main principal, is it like you have wave
table points that move according to spring like motions when excited and
evolving through time?

thanks
cheers
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[cyrille henry]

Le 16/01/2024 à 17:12, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit :


Em ter., 16 de jan. de 2024 às 05:08, cyrille henry mailto:c...@chnry.net>> escreveu:

Hello,
If you want to try scann synthesis, I suggest to try pmpd. specially 
example 47.


Running this in Extended now, it looks amazing. Do we really need Gem though?


You need Gem to run this pmpd example, but you can easily adapt the patch to 
run it without Gem.

 I figure it is just for displaying the array which is also a model of a 
string, right?
yes, but since this string use 2d physical model (X and Y movement), you need 2 
array to display masses displacement and it's not very friendly.

Perhaps one could use a Data Structure array instead?
yes, sure! This example was made before data-structure was a thing, but you can 
adapt it easily!

Or just nothing at all to just focus on the sound.
from my experience, for complex movement and shape of the string, having a 
visualisation help a lot. But it really depend on the way you play with it.


By the way, how do we set the frequency in your example? It seems fixed.

This is Pd, of course you can change the frequency! just adapt the patch to do 
whatever you want!!!
The patch is very simple : everything is obviously in [pd corde] (sorry for my 
french). [pd sound] is where the masses position are put on a table. [pd 
table_read] is where the tableread4~ object are located. You just have to 
change the phasor frequency...



As for pdp, it seems it tries to use the webcam or video sources and I don't 
understand why.

In fact I know nothing about scanned synthesis and I just ran into it by 
accident when reading about vector synthesis in wikipedia, and I even read the 
original paper but I couldn't figure it out much yet.

It sounds at first some kinda of wavetable synthesis but it is clearly physical 
modeling, right?


well. the article describe it as :
"The essence of scanned synthesis is to use a slowly
vibrating object whose resonant frequencies are low
enough so the performer can directly manipulate the
object's vibrations by motions of his body and to scan
(measure) the shape of the object along a periodic path by
a periodic scanning function whose period is the
fundamental frequency of the sound we wish to create."

So, yes, a wavetable synthesis with "slowly" updated table by an algorithm that 
you can interact with.


According to this definition, pdp_scan~ is not really a scann synthesis. But 
it's not very far, since it scann an array at sub-audio frequency.

The only example in the article is about a string, but one can imagine lot's of different 
topology of the physical model, lot's of different way to interact with the model, and 
lot's of different way to "play" the shape of the model...




Would love to dig more in it and provide an external myself but it looks quite 
complex...

all you need to explore scann synth is the pmpd lib and tabwrite / tabread~
A scan synth external will be more limited that what pmpd + pd can already 
offer.


Cheers
c



thanks


cheers
c


Le 15/01/2024 à 22:45, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit :
 > When reading about 'Scanned synthesis' in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanned_synthesis 
 
> I see about the [pdp_scan~] external 
from 'pdp', but I can't use it... I can still try extended in my machine and it didn't really work 
back then, I get
 >
 > Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin, 
10): Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dylib
 >    Referenced from: 
/Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin
 >    Reason: image not found
 > pdp: can't load library
 >
 > Purr Data can't load it either.
 >
 > The 'pdp' version in deken (0-0extended) doesn't work either and all 
print the same error.
 >
 > I wanted to check this object out, does anybody know where the source 
lives and if we can try and compile it?
 >
 > cheers
 >
 >
 >
 > ___
 > Pd-list@lists.iem.at  mailing list
 > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list 




___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at  mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list 






___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em ter., 16 de jan. de 2024 às 13:26, IOhannes m zmoelnig 
escreveu:

> On 1/16/24 17:12, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> > Em ter., 16 de jan. de 2024 às 05:08, cyrille henry 
> escreveu:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >> If you want to try scann synthesis, I suggest to try pmpd. specially
> >> example 47.
> >>
> >
> > Running this in Extended now, it looks amazing. Do we really need Gem
> > though?
>
> not at all.
> Gem just does the visualiation, but the actual physical model runs
> within pmpd on the CPU.
>

I figured, but if you actually remove Gem, somehow, sound stops, so it is
part of the implementation somehow I guess.


>
> >
> > As for pdp, it seems it tries to use the webcam or video sources and I
> > don't understand why.
>
> because it does something different.
> [pdp_scan~] will scan an image along a trajectory, and convert the
> traversed pixels to samples.
> it's not really what "scanned synthesis" is referred to in the wikipedia
> article and the like.
>

yeah, doesn't seem so, but it's gotta be related somehow, right?


>
> >
> > Would love to dig more in it and provide an external myself but it looks
> > quite complex...
>
> or you could just use pmpd?
> i don't fully understand the benefit of re-implementing everything that
> is already out there.
>

I guess it depends on each case, sometimes (I actually think most of the
times) I do offer something different (with more features) and better
resolved, other times it's something simple that doesn't make much sense to
require a dependency, but nowadays, with plugdata, there's always an excuse
or actual requirement to add something (and I am thinking now of the time
and date alternatives that I didn't need or want myself, but someone
requested for plugdata).

cheers


> ___
> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 1/16/24 17:12, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:

Em ter., 16 de jan. de 2024 às 05:08, cyrille henry  escreveu:


Hello,
If you want to try scann synthesis, I suggest to try pmpd. specially
example 47.



Running this in Extended now, it looks amazing. Do we really need Gem
though? 


not at all.
Gem just does the visualiation, but the actual physical model runs 
within pmpd on the CPU.




As for pdp, it seems it tries to use the webcam or video sources and I
don't understand why.


because it does something different.
[pdp_scan~] will scan an image along a trajectory, and convert the 
traversed pixels to samples.
it's not really what "scanned synthesis" is referred to in the wikipedia 
article and the like.




Would love to dig more in it and provide an external myself but it looks
quite complex...


or you could just use pmpd?
i don't fully understand the benefit of re-implementing everything that 
is already out there.


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em ter., 16 de jan. de 2024 às 05:08, cyrille henry  escreveu:

> Hello,
> If you want to try scann synthesis, I suggest to try pmpd. specially
> example 47.
>

Running this in Extended now, it looks amazing. Do we really need Gem
though? I figure it is just for displaying the array which is also a model
of a string, right? Perhaps one could use a Data Structure array instead?
Or just nothing at all to just focus on the sound. By the way, how do we
set the frequency in your example? It seems fixed.

As for pdp, it seems it tries to use the webcam or video sources and I
don't understand why.

In fact I know nothing about scanned synthesis and I just ran into it by
accident when reading about vector synthesis in wikipedia, and I even read
the original paper but I couldn't figure it out much yet.

It sounds at first some kinda of wavetable synthesis but it is clearly
physical modeling, right?

Would love to dig more in it and provide an external myself but it looks
quite complex...

thanks



>
> cheers
> c
>
>
> Le 15/01/2024 à 22:45, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit :
> > When reading about 'Scanned synthesis' in
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanned_synthesis <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanned_synthesis> I see about the
> [pdp_scan~] external from 'pdp', but I can't use it... I can still try
> extended in my machine and it didn't really work back then, I get
> >
> > Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin,
> 10): Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dylib
> >Referenced from:
> /Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin
> >Reason: image not found
> > pdp: can't load library
> >
> > Purr Data can't load it either.
> >
> > The 'pdp' version in deken (0-0extended) doesn't work either and all
> print the same error.
> >
> > I wanted to check this object out, does anybody know where the source
> lives and if we can try and compile it?
> >
> > cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
>
>
> ___
> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Oh yeah, I now remember we gotta install XQuartz for X11 and Extended! It
works :)

Em ter., 16 de jan. de 2024 às 05:36, IOhannes m zmoelnig 
escreveu:

> On 1/15/24 22:45, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> > When reading about 'Scanned synthesis' in
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanned_synthesis I see about the
> [pdp_scan~]
> > external from 'pdp', but I can't use it... I can still try extended in my
> > machine and it didn't really work back then, I get
> >
> > Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin,
> > 10): Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dylib
>
> you need X11 for pdp. iirc, on macOS you can install it via XQuartz.
>
> to quote from their homepage:
>  > it forms the X11.app that Apple shipped with OS X versions 10.5
> through 10.7.
>
> which kind of explains why pdp worked with older versions of OSX, but
> not with current macOS.
>
>
> >
> > Purr Data can't load it either.
>
> obviously, you still need X11.
>
> >
> > The 'pdp' version in deken (0-0extended) doesn't work either and all
> print
> > the same error.
>
> as expected.
>
> >
> > I wanted to check this object out, does anybody know where the source
> lives
> > and if we can try and compile it?
>
> where all externals lived in the days of yore: the sourceforge SVN
> 
>
> a read-only git repository can be found at
> 
>
>
> the code hasn't been touched in 12 years, it probably won't compile on
> modern systems.
>
> Debian still provides pdp binaries, so there's a couple of patches that
> allow us to build on this platform. find them at
> <
> https://salsa.debian.org/multimedia-team/pd/pdp/-/tree/master/debian/patches
> >
>
> these patches might be very Debian specific (solving problems that only
> exist on this platform), i have no idea whether they might help building
> on macOS.
>
>
> and finally, there's of course the official homepage:
> https://zwizwa.be/pdp/
>
> gmasdr
> IOhannes
> ___
> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 1/15/24 22:45, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:

When reading about 'Scanned synthesis' in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanned_synthesis I see about the [pdp_scan~]
external from 'pdp', but I can't use it... I can still try extended in my
machine and it didn't really work back then, I get

Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin,
10): Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dylib


you need X11 for pdp. iirc, on macOS you can install it via XQuartz.

to quote from their homepage:
> it forms the X11.app that Apple shipped with OS X versions 10.5 
through 10.7.


which kind of explains why pdp worked with older versions of OSX, but 
not with current macOS.





Purr Data can't load it either.


obviously, you still need X11.



The 'pdp' version in deken (0-0extended) doesn't work either and all print
the same error.


as expected.



I wanted to check this object out, does anybody know where the source lives
and if we can try and compile it?


where all externals lived in the days of yore: the sourceforge SVN


a read-only git repository can be found at 




the code hasn't been touched in 12 years, it probably won't compile on 
modern systems.


Debian still provides pdp binaries, so there's a couple of patches that 
allow us to build on this platform. find them at 



these patches might be very Debian specific (solving problems that only 
exist on this platform), i have no idea whether they might help building 
on macOS.



and finally, there's of course the official homepage: https://zwizwa.be/pdp/

gmasdr
IOhannes


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[cyrille henry]

Hello,
If you want to try scann synthesis, I suggest to try pmpd. specially example 47.

cheers
c


Le 15/01/2024 à 22:45, Alexandre Torres Porres a écrit :

When reading about 'Scanned synthesis' in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanned_synthesis 
 I see about the [pdp_scan~] 
external from 'pdp', but I can't use it... I can still try extended in my machine and 
it didn't really work back then, I get

Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin, 10): 
Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dylib
   Referenced from: 
/Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin
   Reason: image not found
pdp: can't load library

Purr Data can't load it either.

The 'pdp' version in deken (0-0extended) doesn't work either and all print the 
same error.

I wanted to check this object out, does anybody know where the source lives and 
if we can try and compile it?

cheers



___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list




___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

[PD] trying to test 'pdp library and 'pdp_scan~'

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

When reading about 'Scanned synthesis' in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanned_synthesis I see about the [pdp_scan~]
external from 'pdp', but I can't use it... I can still try extended in my
machine and it didn't really work back then, I get

Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin,
10): Library not loaded: /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.6.dylib
  Referenced from:
/Applications/Pd-extended.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pdp/pdp.pd_darwin
  Reason: image not found
pdp: can't load library

Purr Data can't load it either.

The 'pdp' version in deken (0-0extended) doesn't work either and all print
the same error.

I wanted to check this object out, does anybody know where the source lives
and if we can try and compile it?

cheers
___
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list