Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Ok, I received my cheap MPE aware controller from keith mcmillen, it
doesn't do much, but I was able to have some basic tests.

This one doesn't let me configure "zones" as I see it, cause it's too
simple, and I kinda expected that.

It does send a proper 'Note Off' message, but it doesn't handle any release
velocity, just gives me '0', and Pd's [notein] object actually responds to
this message, or any release velocity message, but always outputs zeroes
(and I did document this in the documentation branch now).

So. it seems quite simple indeed to work with vanilla objects to make a Pd
patch. Maybe not bother then with a specific object.

Most people won't use MPE in the first place and most of those who do maybe
will not need anything too fancy, like setting and handling separate zones.
This is where someone out there should stop me and tell me otherwise.

I'll keep looking into it but I don't have a better controller with full
blast MPE support to go any further... and maybe an external here is the
case.

For those controllers that use MPE with a release velocity, my take is then
to just add proper Note Off support for [notein] and [noteoff]. I already
have a PR that works for it and we're discussing it on github.

I'm thinking of adding an example to the documentation on how to handle MPE
soon.

cheers



Em sex., 27 de out. de 2023 às 13:20, Alexandre Torres Porres <
por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Awesome. My external is definitely working fine, but it's simple and maybe
> sensel morph uses more stuff, so you gotta tell me and explain what you
> need. This is what I was hoping asking around about this, someone with a
> particular need.
>
> I took that external as a base and out of all midi messages possible, it
> listens to note on, note off, CC #74 (commonly used for moving through the
> 'y' axis), channel pressure and pitch bend  (commonly used for moving
> through the 'x' axis), but I know the [mpeparse] in MAX listens to ALL Midi
> messages possible, even polyphonic aftertouch, which doesn't seem to make
> sense to me, since using MPE for channel pressure is basically the same as
> using polyphonic aftertouch, and polyphonic aftertouch is already much
> better anyway!
>
> The reason I guess that MPE came up is that, besides pressure, these more
> fancy new and modern controllers do care about a bidimensional axis (x, y),
> and then it makes sense to group them all in the same idea and use pressure
> (as a 'z' dimension) instead of polyphonic aftertouch.
>
> I see some fancy new controllers are also using note off and part of all
> this, which is something I really find cool and too bad it kinda got lost
> to oblivion for the most part.
>
> And there are also other messages, like program change, other control
> numbers you can use and whatever, not sure if sensel uses any of that.
>
> I can expand my external so it listens to all messages and so be it. So
> far it just does the same as the original one I had a look at.
>
> Now, besides all that, which you could even use regular simple vanilla
> objects (excluding 'note off'), MPE can also define different 'zones', and
> the starting channel for each zone. This is where it's still tricky to me.
> I have no idea yet how to deal with it in an external, and it seems obvious
> to me that you can't do that in Vanilla. And my original request to add MPE
> support into Vanilla would require also managing this bit.
>
> Anyway, this is what I can make of all this for now. We can also talk in
> private so you can explain me the full features of sensel morph, what you
> need, and what I need to do so you can test it.
>
> and btw, thanks to github actions, you can download linux externals from
> current master, see if you can get and load 'else/mpe.in' here
> https://github.com/porres/pd-else/actions/runs/6659549237
>
> cheers
>
> Em sex., 27 de out. de 2023 às 11:46, James Correa 
> escreveu:
>
>> Hi Alexandre, I have a MPE controller, sensel morph. I can test your
>> external if you compile it to linux. I don't use Mac anymore.
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023, 19:24 Alexandre Torres Porres, 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I’m not even sure if the cheap gear I bought allows much editing
>>> actually:) let’s see
>>>
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 19:21 Alexandre Torres Porres 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Why is that? I need to get my hands on an actual controller before I
 feel like reading in that much depth. I won’t try to code things if I can’t
 test them. For now I have the simple parsing object that does the same
 thing as that external I reffered to, which was something I could test.



 On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 18:43 José de Abreu 
 wrote:

> You can also read the mpe specs, i have a feeling you want to somehow
> reverse engineer it... and maybe you don't need to...
>
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/midi-polyphonic-expression-mpe
>
> i am sending the pdf on this e-mail too
>
> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 17:51, 

Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Awesome. My external is definitely working fine, but it's simple and maybe
sensel morph uses more stuff, so you gotta tell me and explain what you
need. This is what I was hoping asking around about this, someone with a
particular need.

I took that external as a base and out of all midi messages possible, it
listens to note on, note off, CC #74 (commonly used for moving through the
'y' axis), channel pressure and pitch bend  (commonly used for moving
through the 'x' axis), but I know the [mpeparse] in MAX listens to ALL Midi
messages possible, even polyphonic aftertouch, which doesn't seem to make
sense to me, since using MPE for channel pressure is basically the same as
using polyphonic aftertouch, and polyphonic aftertouch is already much
better anyway!

The reason I guess that MPE came up is that, besides pressure, these more
fancy new and modern controllers do care about a bidimensional axis (x, y),
and then it makes sense to group them all in the same idea and use pressure
(as a 'z' dimension) instead of polyphonic aftertouch.

I see some fancy new controllers are also using note off and part of all
this, which is something I really find cool and too bad it kinda got lost
to oblivion for the most part.

And there are also other messages, like program change, other control
numbers you can use and whatever, not sure if sensel uses any of that.

I can expand my external so it listens to all messages and so be it. So far
it just does the same as the original one I had a look at.

Now, besides all that, which you could even use regular simple vanilla
objects (excluding 'note off'), MPE can also define different 'zones', and
the starting channel for each zone. This is where it's still tricky to me.
I have no idea yet how to deal with it in an external, and it seems obvious
to me that you can't do that in Vanilla. And my original request to add MPE
support into Vanilla would require also managing this bit.

Anyway, this is what I can make of all this for now. We can also talk in
private so you can explain me the full features of sensel morph, what you
need, and what I need to do so you can test it.

and btw, thanks to github actions, you can download linux externals from
current master, see if you can get and load 'else/mpe.in' here
https://github.com/porres/pd-else/actions/runs/6659549237

cheers

Em sex., 27 de out. de 2023 às 11:46, James Correa 
escreveu:

> Hi Alexandre, I have a MPE controller, sensel morph. I can test your
> external if you compile it to linux. I don't use Mac anymore.
>
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023, 19:24 Alexandre Torres Porres, 
> wrote:
>
>> I’m not even sure if the cheap gear I bought allows much editing
>> actually:) let’s see
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 19:21 Alexandre Torres Porres 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why is that? I need to get my hands on an actual controller before I
>>> feel like reading in that much depth. I won’t try to code things if I can’t
>>> test them. For now I have the simple parsing object that does the same
>>> thing as that external I reffered to, which was something I could test.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 18:43 José de Abreu 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 You can also read the mpe specs, i have a feeling you want to somehow
 reverse engineer it... and maybe you don't need to...

 https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/midi-polyphonic-expression-mpe

 i am sending the pdf on this e-mail too

 Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 17:51, Alexandre Torres Porres <
 por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Ok, I wrote something similar to that [mpe] external (btw, there's a
> small bug in how it handles pitch bend)
>
> this one takes raw midi input, such as from [midiin], and gives you
> something you can connect directly to a [clone] object, so you can route
> inside it the most commonly supported mpe messages, note off, note on,
> aftertouch, CC 74 (aka slide) and pitch bend (aka 'glide'?).
>
>
> https://github.com/porres/pd-else/blob/master/Code_source/Compiled/control/mpe.in.c
>
> will work more on this when my new controller arrives.
>
> cheers
>
> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 15:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 13:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
>> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>>> People use MPE to control virtual synth plugins
>>>
>>
>> this could be of interest for christoph's [vstplugin~] external then,
>> just realized it.
>>
>>> ___


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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla

[Sam Ross]

Hi there,

I have a Linnstrument since earlier this year and am currently using 
pure data to create a kind of framework to interface with its 'user 
firmware mode'. (The idea being people can then make their own modules 
using the framework (sequencers, arps, etc) without having to get into 
Arduino programming, and that maybe if other Linnstrument users find it 
useful collaboration will happen.)


Since getting my head around how midi (1.0!) works, with the status 
bytes and running status and all, I have found parsing the vanilla 
midi-in object quite straightforward. Like you say, the only thing the 
vanilla objects don't handle is release velocity. As far as I am 
concerned sending MPE is quite simple: you just send x=pitchbend, 
y=timbre (normally cc74), z=channel aftertouch (poly is redundant in 
this context), but *on a note-per-channel basis*. You also tend to 
assign a channel (i.e. 1) for omni messages, else send them over all 
redundantly. I've just followed the advice on Roger Linn's site here: 
https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/support-developers-how-to-add-mpe


I've also been fiddling around with an 'MPE-izer' that basically uses a 
cloned instance of vstplugin~ (itself nested inside an abstraction, and 
set with the plugin I want to clone) to send note-per-channel to each 
clone, and that works fine.


The really fiddly stuff is dealing with the sensor data of the 
Linnstrument, but sending MPE is as straightforward as normal midi 
messages, except on a note-per-channel basis.


For my part I don't really have anything ready to release yet and reckon 
you guys are more advanced than me (thanks for Else btw, Mr Porres, it's 
great!) but if you want a look at my MPE-izer or anything just let me know.


I'm a big fan of MPE, mostly because it allows me to feel more connected 
to what I'm playing - I'm not a great player but that feeling of 
connection is worth worlds. You can get it just from expert knob 
twiddling if you're in the zone but still... viva vibrato?


Cheers,
Sam Knot/unclewayback

On 27/10/2023 12:00, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:


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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[James Correa]

Hi Alexandre, I have a MPE controller, sensel morph. I can test your
external if you compile it to linux. I don't use Mac anymore.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023, 19:24 Alexandre Torres Porres, 
wrote:

> I’m not even sure if the cheap gear I bought allows much editing
> actually:) let’s see
>
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 19:21 Alexandre Torres Porres 
> wrote:
>
>> Why is that? I need to get my hands on an actual controller before I feel
>> like reading in that much depth. I won’t try to code things if I can’t test
>> them. For now I have the simple parsing object that does the same thing as
>> that external I reffered to, which was something I could test.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 18:43 José de Abreu 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You can also read the mpe specs, i have a feeling you want to somehow
>>> reverse engineer it... and maybe you don't need to...
>>>
>>> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/midi-polyphonic-expression-mpe
>>>
>>> i am sending the pdf on this e-mail too
>>>
>>> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 17:51, Alexandre Torres Porres <
>>> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>>
 Ok, I wrote something similar to that [mpe] external (btw, there's a
 small bug in how it handles pitch bend)

 this one takes raw midi input, such as from [midiin], and gives you
 something you can connect directly to a [clone] object, so you can route
 inside it the most commonly supported mpe messages, note off, note on,
 aftertouch, CC 74 (aka slide) and pitch bend (aka 'glide'?).


 https://github.com/porres/pd-else/blob/master/Code_source/Compiled/control/mpe.in.c

 will work more on this when my new controller arrives.

 cheers

 Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 15:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
 por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 13:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>> People use MPE to control virtual synth plugins
>>
>
> this could be of interest for christoph's [vstplugin~] external then,
> just realized it.
>
>> ___
>>>
>>>
 Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
 UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
 https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

I’m not even sure if the cheap gear I bought allows much editing actually:)
let’s see

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 19:21 Alexandre Torres Porres 
wrote:

> Why is that? I need to get my hands on an actual controller before I feel
> like reading in that much depth. I won’t try to code things if I can’t test
> them. For now I have the simple parsing object that does the same thing as
> that external I reffered to, which was something I could test.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 18:43 José de Abreu  wrote:
>
>> You can also read the mpe specs, i have a feeling you want to somehow
>> reverse engineer it... and maybe you don't need to...
>>
>> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/midi-polyphonic-expression-mpe
>>
>> i am sending the pdf on this e-mail too
>>
>> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 17:51, Alexandre Torres Porres <
>> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>>> Ok, I wrote something similar to that [mpe] external (btw, there's a
>>> small bug in how it handles pitch bend)
>>>
>>> this one takes raw midi input, such as from [midiin], and gives you
>>> something you can connect directly to a [clone] object, so you can route
>>> inside it the most commonly supported mpe messages, note off, note on,
>>> aftertouch, CC 74 (aka slide) and pitch bend (aka 'glide'?).
>>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/porres/pd-else/blob/master/Code_source/Compiled/control/mpe.in.c
>>>
>>> will work more on this when my new controller arrives.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 15:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
>>> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>>
 Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 13:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
 por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> People use MPE to control virtual synth plugins
>

 this could be of interest for christoph's [vstplugin~] external then,
 just realized it.

> ___
>>
>>
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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Why is that? I need to get my hands on an actual controller before I feel
like reading in that much depth. I won’t try to code things if I can’t test
them. For now I have the simple parsing object that does the same thing as
that external I reffered to, which was something I could test.



On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 at 18:43 José de Abreu  wrote:

> You can also read the mpe specs, i have a feeling you want to somehow
> reverse engineer it... and maybe you don't need to...
>
> https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/midi-polyphonic-expression-mpe
>
> i am sending the pdf on this e-mail too
>
> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 17:51, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>> Ok, I wrote something similar to that [mpe] external (btw, there's a
>> small bug in how it handles pitch bend)
>>
>> this one takes raw midi input, such as from [midiin], and gives you
>> something you can connect directly to a [clone] object, so you can route
>> inside it the most commonly supported mpe messages, note off, note on,
>> aftertouch, CC 74 (aka slide) and pitch bend (aka 'glide'?).
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/porres/pd-else/blob/master/Code_source/Compiled/control/mpe.in.c
>>
>> will work more on this when my new controller arrives.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 15:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
>> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>>> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 13:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
>>> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>>
 People use MPE to control virtual synth plugins

>>>
>>> this could be of interest for christoph's [vstplugin~] external then,
>>> just realized it.
>>>
 ___
>
>
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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Ok, I wrote something similar to that [mpe] external (btw, there's a small
bug in how it handles pitch bend)

this one takes raw midi input, such as from [midiin], and gives you
something you can connect directly to a [clone] object, so you can route
inside it the most commonly supported mpe messages, note off, note on,
aftertouch, CC 74 (aka slide) and pitch bend (aka 'glide'?).

https://github.com/porres/pd-else/blob/master/Code_source/Compiled/control/mpe.in.c

will work more on this when my new controller arrives.

cheers

Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 15:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 13:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>> People use MPE to control virtual synth plugins
>>
>
> this could be of interest for christoph's [vstplugin~] external then, just
> realized it.
>
>>
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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 13:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> People use MPE to control virtual synth plugins
>

this could be of interest for christoph's [vstplugin~] external then, just
realized it.

>
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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em qui., 26 de out. de 2023 às 13:36, Alexandre Torres Porres <
por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> oops, I had sent the wrong link, I was referring to this
> https://github.com/DanielRudrich/pd_mpe
>
> And it actually looks like a very simple "Pd Vanilla like" object, we
> could use the same idea and structure and call it [mpein], and we'd also
> need a [mpeout] counterpart.
>

yup, this is really really simple. I couldn't compile, but there's a binary
to test and at first I could see how a simple vanilla abstraction could
handle it, BUT... there's one problem, note off velocity (aka release
velocity)! Apparently release velocity is a thing for MPE and we only have
note on messages with note on velocities (where a 0 note on velocity is
interpreted as a note off).

Other than in MPE, release velocity is not a real thing that controllers
actually use. I actually don't know of any modern one that has it and is a
proper MIDI keyboard controller, this only happened back in the 80s or
so... but it seems to have been revived for MPE!

So if working with abstractions is what we want for MPE management, we'd
need at least an object in Pd to give us a note off message, otherwise we
have to go crazier by making a much more complicated abstraction listening
to [midiin].

Maybe a 'release' or 'off'' flag to [notein] could do it? In which case it
only outputs note off messages with the release velocity instead of note
on! It'd do the trick and not even a new object would be necessary.

Or we work on a [mpein] object for vanilla that works with note on and note
off messages and if people need note off velocities outside the MPE, they
can tweak this object to get it.

I'm about to create a first external for ELSE that parses raw MIDI input
such as from [midiin] to MPE messages in a similar same way as the [mpe]
external works for now.

Cheers.
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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

I'm getting a cheap (but not so much for brazilians) mpe controller by
keith mcmillen, let's dig in :)

I made progress and found that Live, for instance, is able to edit and send
MPE data and I was better checking things in MAX, which never ceases to
amaze me with the creepy feature bloated objects and unnecessary complexity
and I'm trying to pick up on what's important.

People use MPE to control virtual synth plugins and it's nice then for
PlugData to support this in a neat way, so I'm gonna offer it a solution
with ELSE.

In the Pd world, we need something like [poly] to drive a [clone] object
and send the MPE control data to the corresponding active voice. I'm still
not sure how it works, but it seems that Pd people are happy enough in just
using existing MIDI objects with some minor tweaks and routing...

MAX has a special object to get MPE data inside instances loaded in [poly~]
(their version of [clone], per se), I didn't even want to look at that but
I did. It seems it needs a [midiin] connected to a [mpeparse] connected to
[poly~] and inside [poly~] you have [polymidiin] connected to a
[midiparse]... pheeew, that's insane! No wonder I practically gave up on
Cyclone :)

On the other hand, MAX does support any minor detail of MPE implementation.
In a sense, I can look at it in the same way as OSC. Pd Vanilla has a very
simple solution that can be good for most cases, but for a full blast
support you need externals. Maybe MPE could be a bit like that. I'm yet to
see if a simple handling of MIDI data without a specialized object is ok
and then I can also just document it as such in the help file of MIDI. If I
can see that a simple object is a better option, I'll propose it. It's
still early for me to say, but something tells me we DO need an object.

And I can think of a more complex solution for an external in ELSE/PlugData.


> > Now, only external I found in the wild was
> > https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/2117
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/2117__;!!Mih3wA!A8bJjPI9BgeXtnabP92vhFFobFt-zlghD1Ddy02SilyrawGh_T1YHxvWYAq8DnY3Uk_a6ffTFg$>
>
> > and I'm trying to check it to see how things work.
>

oops, I had sent the wrong link, I was referring to this
https://github.com/DanielRudrich/pd_mpe

And it actually looks like a very simple "Pd Vanilla like" object, we could
use the same idea and structure and call it [mpein], and we'd also need a
[mpeout] counterpart.

Cheers
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Re: [PD] MPE in Pd Vanilla?

[Miller Puckette]

Use another instance of Pd :)

On 10/25/23 23:43, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
I'm finally trying to get a hold of what the deal is with MIDI 
Polyphonic Expression, which is hard because I have no modern 
controller that uses it. So one question is does anyone know of a nice 
free open source software that can format, send and receive MPE so I 
can test some things?


Now, only external I found in the wild was 
https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/2117 
 
and I'm trying to check it to see how things work.


And now for the real subject. I know Pd can get MPE data from raw midi 
and even specialized objects like [ctlin], but that doesn't seem to me 
like the "real deal", even though I'm aware my knowledge is limited. I 
am thinking about  a new external for ELSE, but it really looks like 
Vanilla should handle this. My point and idea is that Pd should better 
deal with it natively, whatever that actually means, I cannot put 
things in details yet... for reference, what I can say is that MAX has 
mpeparse and mpeformat objects, and I figure that Pd should also have 
something like that, by the way, I also opened an issue on github, see 
https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/2117 



what do you peple say?

cheers


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