Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Matt Davey]

Cheers, sounds good

On Thu, 16 Apr 2020 at 14:38, Albert Rafetseder <
albert.rafetseder...@univie.ac.at> wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
> > is there a way to get osx to remember font settings?  It used to work
> > automatically, but now it doesn't.
>
> A half-solution: There's an input box labeled "Startup flags" under Wish
> -> Preferences -> Startup..., and you may set
>
> -font-size 16
>
> (or whatever suits you) there. Unfortunately, though expectedly, this
> only affects patches created anew. When I open an existing patch or help
> file, it is still rendered using the default small font. The same goes
> for the main Pd window.
>
> More similar font tips:
> https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/tree/master/font
>
> More startup flags: pd -help
>
> More on startup settings via the GUI:
> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/pdsettings
>
> Cheers,
>   Albert.
>
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Albert Rafetseder]

Hi Matt,

> is there a way to get osx to remember font settings?  It used to work
> automatically, but now it doesn't.

A half-solution: There's an input box labeled "Startup flags" under Wish
-> Preferences -> Startup..., and you may set

-font-size 16

(or whatever suits you) there. Unfortunately, though expectedly, this
only affects patches created anew. When I open an existing patch or help
file, it is still rendered using the default small font. The same goes
for the main Pd window.

More similar font tips:
https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/tree/master/font

More startup flags: pd -help

More on startup settings via the GUI:
https://puredata.info/docs/faq/pdsettings

Cheers,
  Albert.



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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Matt Davey]

is there a way to get osx to remember font settings?  It used to work
automatically, but now it doesn't.
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Lucas Cordiviola]

On 1/26/2020 10:59 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> We could do that by shipping DejaVu Sans and DejaVu Serif 
> https://dejavu-fonts.github.io
>
> "DejaVu Serif", "Times New Roman", Times, serif
>
> "DejaVu Sans", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif
>
> Or, alternatively, choose a "safer fonts" than Helvetica and Times but 
> I feel that will still not guarantee as close a match as using the 
> exact same font on all platforms. As we have seen, it's working 
> relatively well with DejaVu Sans Mono.


+1

I think this is the best solution. And I agree with the reasoning.


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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Dan Wilcox]

It works on the command line. What you are seeing is a bug: 
https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/741 


> On Jan 26, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres  wrote:
> 
> By the way, it says I can get other fonts by using quotes, such as in  pd 
> -font-face "Zapf Dingbats"
> 
> but using quotes doesn't work for me when trying to load a font like "Times 
> New Roman", it'll only understand "Times" and ignore the rest. Moreover, it 
> screws up when trying to open Starup again, as it can't really.  


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika 
danomatika.com 
robotcowboy.com 



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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

Am 26. Jänner 2020 17:24:05 MEZ schrieb Alexandre Torres Porres 
:
>Em dom., 26 de jan. de 2020 às 10:59, Dan Wilcox 
>escreveu:
>
>> Perhaps this can be taken care just by mentioning
>> in the documentation somewhere (if you don't have times/helvetica
>> installed, similar fonts are loaded).
>>
>>
>> It could be added to the existing font/README.txt:
>> https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt
>>
>
>yup, seems like a good place to do this.
>
>By the way, it says I can get other fonts by using quotes, such as in 
>pd
>-font-face "Zapf Dingbats"
>
>but using quotes doesn't work for me when trying to load a font like
>"Times
>New Roman", it'll only understand "Times" and ignore the rest.

are you sure that you run the command as documented, eg:

pd -font-face "Times New Roman"

...or are you instead just assuming that adding the text '-font-face "Times New 
Roman"' (without the single-quotes) to the startup options in the preferences 
will do the same?

because i'm pretty sure that it won't. thr parser used by the shelland by pd is 
quoye different in how it handles quoted strings.

there is a PR [741]  that fixes this.



mfg.hft.fsl
IOhannes

[741] https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/741


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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em dom., 26 de jan. de 2020 às 10:59, Dan Wilcox 
escreveu:

> Perhaps this can be taken care just by mentioning
> in the documentation somewhere (if you don't have times/helvetica
> installed, similar fonts are loaded).
>
>
> It could be added to the existing font/README.txt:
> https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt
>

yup, seems like a good place to do this.

By the way, it says I can get other fonts by using quotes, such as in  pd
-font-face "Zapf Dingbats"

but using quotes doesn't work for me when trying to load a font like "Times
New Roman", it'll only understand "Times" and ignore the rest. Moreover, it
screws up when trying to open Starup again, as it can't really.

>
> It doesn't seem worth doing more than
> that and trying to ship the same group of 3 fonts like we're doing with
> dejavu, right?
>
>
> We could do that by shipping DejaVu Sans and DejaVu Serif
> https://dejavu-fonts.github.io
>
> "DejaVu Serif", "Times New Roman", Times, serif
>
> "DejaVu Sans", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif
>
> Or, alternatively, choose a "safer fonts" than Helvetica and Times but I
> feel that will still not guarantee as close a match as using the exact same
> font on all platforms. As we have seen, it's working relatively well with
> DejaVu Sans Mono.
>
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
> danomatika.com
> robotcowboy.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Dan Wilcox]

> On Jan 26, 2020, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> 
> As far as my cross-platofrms issues, I guess things don't look that much
> terrible at all if we have actual different fonts for iemgui labels. But
> now that I know about it, it annoys me that other fonts besides DejaVu Sans
> Mono aren't really there.

The "Times" and "Helvetica" font-families are more, or less, standard on most 
platforms and fall back to near-equivalent "Serif" and "Sans-Serif" fonts. This 
has been well-established for a while and also holds true as both of these are 
considered "web-safe font" families, ie. more or less guaranteed to be 
available on most web browsers:  
https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css_websafe_fonts.asp 


"Times New Roman", Times, serif

Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif

What you are probably seeing is that those *specific* fonts are not always 
available due to licensing, as buying macOS or Windows usually includes 
licensing for some 3rd party fonts while using a free system may not, a fall 
back is provided that is similar but not exactly the same.

> Perhaps this can be taken care just by mentioning
> in the documentation somewhere (if you don't have times/helvetica
> installed, similar fonts are loaded).

It could be added to the existing font/README.txt: 
https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt 


> It doesn't seem worth doing more than
> that and trying to ship the same group of 3 fonts like we're doing with
> dejavu, right?

We could do that by shipping DejaVu Sans and DejaVu Serif 
https://dejavu-fonts.github.io 

"DejaVu Serif", "Times New Roman", Times, serif

"DejaVu Sans", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif

Or, alternatively, choose a "safer fonts" than Helvetica and Times but I feel 
that will still not guarantee as close a match as using the exact same font on 
all platforms. As we have seen, it's working relatively well with DejaVu Sans 
Mono. 


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika 
danomatika.com 
robotcowboy.com 



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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em sex., 24 de jan. de 2020 às 18:35, IOhannes m zmölnig 
escreveu:

> On 1/24/20 10:07 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> > My best/ideal solution is if I could make cyclone/comment say *you tried
> to
> > load helvetica, but I loaded "x" instead*
>
> https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl/TkCmd/font.htm#M5
>
> that was the first hit i got when searching for "tcl get information on
> current font"
>

Yeah, I had seen that, and I'm struggling to see if I can make that happen,
but my coding skills are limited and things aren't that 100%
straightforward for me, so I don't know if it's possible I figure it out
:)

>
> >. Now, apparently this is handled
> > internally via tk,
>
> actually no.
> this is done on an OS-level.


I don't remember where exactly I saw it, but it was one of these
manuals/tutorials and stuff online that said so, but sure, I guess you can
be right, cool.

As far as my cross-platofrms issues, I guess things don't look that much
terrible at all if we have actual different fonts for iemgui labels. But
now that I know about it, it annoys me that other fonts besides DejaVu Sans
Mono aren't really there. Perhaps this can be taken care just by mentioning
in the documentation somewhere (if you don't have times/helvetica
installed, similar fonts are loaded). It doesn't seem worth doing more than
that and trying to ship the same group of 3 fonts like we're doing with
dejavu, right?

I guess the main issue as far as patch discrepancy goes is still how DejaVu
is rendered in Pd's commments - I see some quite noticeable differences if
I open a help patch with lots of written stuff in Linux, and some of the
spacing I did fit in an area can get out of bounds in Linux - specially
with line spacing, so it seems.

cheers
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 1/24/20 10:07 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> My best/ideal solution is if I could make cyclone/comment say *you tried to
> load helvetica, but I loaded "x" instead*

https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl/TkCmd/font.htm#M5

that was the first hit i got when searching for "tcl get information on
current font"

>. Now, apparently this is handled
> internally via tk,

actually no.
this is done on an OS-level.

*most* software that deals with fonts will simply ask the OS's
font-manager to give it a certain font, and the font-manger will return
a handle to a "close-enough" font.
that's a good thing, as applications don't have to worry too much about
which fonts are available on a given system (fonts are really hairy
regarding licenses).
most fonts only cover a small range of available characters (e.g. only
characters used in "western" scripts), so picking a sepcific font might
turn some glyphs into the famous square symbol.
to somewhat fix this, the OS's font-manager will mix various fonts for
you, so if you have at least one font with kanji support, you can still
use your limited default font and use "it" to display both portuguese
and japanese.

gmds
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em sex., 24 de jan. de 2020 às 16:50, IOhannes m zmölnig 
escreveu:

> On 1/24/20 3:38 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> > Hi, I've been updating and fixing cyclone/comment and I realized Pd loads
> > similar but different fonts depending on the operating system.
>
> before you investigate on what Pd might possibly do wrong, please
> consider (and answer) the following questions:
> - how do wide-spread text editing applications (e.g. MS/Open/Libre
> Office) handle this?
>

I was actually testing this before asking here. I could see that Libre
Office did something similar where it loaded a similar font to Helvetica
when I didn't have it. At least I think so.


> - how do even more wide-spread text reading applications (browsers)
> handle this?
> - how do graphic applications (e.g. photoshop/gimp) handle this?
> - how do typesetting applications (e.g. Indesign/Illustratur/Inkscape)
> handle this?
>
> test all of them on multiple platforms and multiple installations of
> each platform (as used by real people; not just pristine installations).
>
> can you name a reference application that handles fonts "correctly"?
> what does this reference application do to achieve this?


My actual main concern comes from dealing with cyclone/comment and I just
wanted to confirm if we had "DejaVu Sans Mono" for every platform, which I
think it's quite clear. I'm just trying to see if it's working correctly
and I just wanna know what kind of font it's loading, namely when you don't
have something like "helvetica" or "times", but it finds something similar.

My best/ideal solution is if I could make cyclone/comment say *you tried to
load helvetica, but I loaded "x" instead*. Now, apparently this is handled
internally via tk, and I've been having a hard time figuring out how it
does so and if it's possible finding out and printing the actual loaded
font. So the it seems both cyclone/comment and iemguis load fonts in the
same way and this is handled by tk in a rather obscure way.

As far as Pd issues go. I'm sure it was attempted to make this as close to
100% equal as possible, and I'm just curious on what still needed to be
made. Now, considering that iemguis properties come with 3 harcoded fonts
and it seems only one of them is guaranteed, I could suggest we tried to
make Pd come with the exact 3 same fonts or maybe find out and use on the
drop down menu the actual font name we're using.

cheers
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 1/24/20 3:38 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Hi, I've been updating and fixing cyclone/comment and I realized Pd loads
> similar but different fonts depending on the operating system.

before you investigate on what Pd might possibly do wrong, please
consider (and answer) the following questions:
- how do wide-spread text editing applications (e.g. MS/Open/Libre
Office) handle this?
- how do even more wide-spread text reading applications (browsers)
handle this?
- how do graphic applications (e.g. photoshop/gimp) handle this?
- how do typesetting applications (e.g. Indesign/Illustratur/Inkscape)
handle this?

test all of them on multiple platforms and multiple installations of
each platform (as used by real people; not just pristine installations).

can you name a reference application that handles fonts "correctly"?
what does this reference application do to achieve this?

mgfr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em sex., 24 de jan. de 2020 às 01:48, Alexandre Torres Porres <
por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Em sex., 24 de jan. de 2020 às 01:03, Lucas Cordiviola <
> lucard...@hotmail.com> escreveu:
>
>>
>> Moreover, when I try to load a non existing font in cyclone/comment, it
> does load some font that I have no idea which one it is, and it seems to be
> different for each platform - how can I find this out?
>

By 'non existing' I mean something made up, not "times" or "helvetica", but
something like "eat my shorts sans mono". It seems that if I try to load
times/helvetica in cyclone/comment, it'll load a similar font just like GUI
labels
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em sex., 24 de jan. de 2020 às 01:03, Lucas Cordiviola <
lucard...@hotmail.com> escreveu:

>
> Here there's a search for a base font :
>
> https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/tcl/pd-gui.tcl#L468
>
>
> Here there's some font settings per OS :
>
> https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/tcl/pd-gui.tcl#L284


What I see here is that it defaults to 'DejaVu Sans Mono' and always finds
it. So if you try to load a general font for all of PD that the system
can't find, then it just uses 'DejaVu Sans Mono' instead. So yeah, I
believe Pd defaults to 'DejaVu Sans Mono' and finds it, but eve so, it
seems rendering is not 100% - But that wasn't my main question, I just
wanted to confirm this.

I tested on Linux and it couldn't find 'Times' or 'Helvetica' and it did
default to 'DejaVu Sans Mono'. Now, what I'm asking is what happens when
you choose  'Times' or 'Helvetica' for a GUI label. I know it doesn't find
it and that I don't have it, but it loads pretty similar fonts that are
not  'DejaVu Sans Mono'. So my main question is how can we learn what font
is actually being loaded in these cases.

Moreover, when I try to load a non existing font in cyclone/comment, it
does load some font that I have no idea which one it is, and it seems to be
different for each platform - how can I find this out?
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

Em sex., 24 de jan. de 2020 às 01:03, Lucas Cordiviola <
lucard...@hotmail.com> escreveu:

>  linux and windows use "bold" font. macOS uses "normal" font :


sure, in my tests, I had normal font for Linux
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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Lucas Cordiviola]

On 1/24/2020 12:14 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> is DejaVu Sans Mono and this is installed and loaded as being exactly 
> the same for all platforms, right?


Here linux and windows use "bold" font. macOS uses "normal" font :

https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/src/s_main.c#L74


Here there's a search for a base font :

https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/tcl/pd-gui.tcl#L468


Here there's some font settings per OS :

https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/tcl/pd-gui.tcl#L284


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Re: [PD] font issues/questions, and also discrepancies between operating systems

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

and well, anyway, I know this is quite known, but we do seem to have
discrepancies between patches and rendering even with regular Pd comments
(that is, without using cyclone's comment). I can still see differences
between help patches. But just to be clear, the font of Pd's comment and
everything (objects, messages, number boxes/etc) is DejaVu Sans Mono and
this is installed and loaded as being exactly the same for all platforms,
right?

Em qui., 23 de jan. de 2020 às 23:38, Alexandre Torres Porres <
por...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Hi, I've been updating and fixing cyclone/comment and I realized Pd loads
> similar but different fonts depending on the operating system. I looked
> closely and, for instance, if you have a label font for a iemgui (such as a
> slider) with "helvetica", it will look a bit differently in Linux, and it
> seems this is because Linux loads a similar but not actually 'helvetica'? I
> don't know, I'm confused, I'm asking.
>
> So, it seems the only way to guarantee things will look exactly the same
> is if you have 'DejaVu Sans Mono', cause now Pd loads this very same font
> indeed for all operating systems, right? For that matter, I updated whole
> of cyclone's documentation so it loads 'DejaVu Sans Mono' for all
> cyclone/comment objects.
>
> Now a question about loading fonts that concerns cyclone/comment. If I ask
> it load a font name that it is not present, it will load some default font
> and I just don't really know which one it is. How can I find out? It seems
> this 'default' font is also different for each operating system. How can I
> find out?
>
> Thanks
>
>
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