RE: Damaged images
Eric, throw your card away now before you get a whole lot of heartache from it! I had that exact thing happen to me with the Microdrive that I was using in my *istD a few years back and lost two complete commercial shoots. I had to do a mass panic ring around and download a gazillion data recovery programs who couldn't retrieve anything. The best quote I got was around the $4k mark and it involved sending the card overseas to a lab that uses microscopes and lasers to try and retrieve the lost data. Needless to say, I still have the card sitting here as a reminder, and had to do two reshoots. Cost me a bundle in the end in lost time/extra talent costs etc, and many nights of lost sleep as I kept remembering all of the gorgeous shots that I just knew were sitting on the card right in front of me. Your card is on its way out, throw it out before it breaks your heart, I reckon! Tan.x. -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Tim Bray Sent: Monday, 14 March 2011 11:24 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Damaged images I've never seen that, but my first suspicion would be the SD card starting to go flaky. -T On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? Or does it indicate there may be something wrong with my camera. Thanks, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 10:25 PM, Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: Now whether cards become bad with time or not is mostly dependant on the hardware/software controller on the card itself - depending on how good it is at choosing places to write files and how good it is at marking the bad spots on the card - the card could either die very fast or live practically forever. So what card you buy really matters. Kris, I am somewhat confused now. What you say makes perfect sense except one detail. I thought that CF cards were those that had controller on board. The SD cards as I understand don't have controller on board. Therefore it makes certain sense (may be not too much sense, but still) to write to/format the card in the same controller (the camera). I am not sure if reading from the card can actually damage its contents... Another question I'd like to ask - how many read/write cycles there has to be made before a certain location on the card becomes flaky? I mean what is card's MTBF? You see, I still have that 1GB SD card (SanDisk) that I bought back in 2006 that still works. My empirical understanding is that several tens of thousands of read/writes don't have significant influence on the card performance. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 5:20 PM, Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 10:28 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: Reasonable universal readers cost like $10-$15 here. I am sure it is even less across the ocean. No need to buy a new Mercedes in order to wrap into it a CD player, you know. Yeah, kinda silly. We humans are prone to that, more than we like to acknowledge -- or are aware of. I am human and I am prone to that too... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 10:52 PM, AlunFoto wrote: I had an issue with one particular card inside an OptioS in 2005. It was while visiting Boris in Israel, too. Maybe he's got something contagious in the air or something. :-) -But never had a problem with any DSLRs or cards. The *istD use CF cards, btw. Dunno if that makes any difference to the tech involved. Jostein You also had an issue with me braking too hard nearby Haifa University. I am a problematic fellow... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 09:16:11PM -0400, Bruce Walker wrote: On 11-03-14 9:07 PM, steve harley wrote: of course reformatting frequently will increase the number of writes of those directory blocks, and thus wear those blocks out even faster Yeah, exactly, which is one reason why I don't habitually format; I just erase the images. And just how, exactly, does this result in less directory rewriting? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 4:58 PM, Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: I am sure every time is a huge overkill. Just using it in a reader that can mount it properly without need for specialized drivers should be enough. I have seen the problem a long time ago with a crappy no-name memory card. Have been using Sandisk memory cards for the past 10 years with no card ever having this problem (and not formatting them ever, not even the recommended first format in-camera). kris I think I started to format my cards in my camera ever since that SanDisk 12-in-1 or whatever fancy name it was reader malfed on me. I remember posting a question to the list that resulted in the advise I am repeating now. Having adopted this practice and having found it useful and headache-free I offer it to others. You may be right, Kris, but I think that either way using quality hardware and consistent practices is the key. In that respect it also makes sense to point out that 1x32GB card may be actually worse idea than 2x16GB card, 'cause if one breaks, you can always switch to the other. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
--- Original message --- From: Boris Liberman You also had an issue with me braking too hard nearby Haifa University. I am a problematic fellow... Don't take the blame for general Israeli traffic behaviour. :-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/15/2011 9:12 AM, alunf...@gmail.com wrote: --- Original message --- From: Boris Liberman You also had an issue with me braking too hard nearby Haifa University. I am a problematic fellow... Don't take the blame for general Israeli traffic behaviour. :-) I refuse not to take the blame. I am part of general Israeli traffic, which I approximate to be about 1:4,000,000. It is also my obligation to remind you that I am under resolution (thankfully, it has nothing to do with the United Nations) not to use smileys... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
It is also my obligation to remind you that I am under resolution (thankfully, it has nothing to do with the United Nations) not to use smileys... :-/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
Kris, I am somewhat confused now. What you say makes perfect sense except one detail. I thought that CF cards were those that had controller on board. The SD cards as I understand don't have controller on board. Therefore it makes certain sense (may be not too much sense, but still) to write to/format the card in the same controller (the camera). I am not sure if reading from the card can actually damage its contents... SD cards have controllers inside as well. This is hard data from an Apacer datasheet of 2005: The SD Memory Card includes an intelligent controller that manages interfaced protocols and data storage and retrieval as well as Error Correction Code (ECC) algorithms, defect handling and diagnostics, power management and Content Protection for Recordable Media related functions. So using SD cards you are essentially shielded from hardware failures of the storage by that controller. What it should be able to do is relocate data even for bad writes and even relocate file system records - the most write-intensive parts of the memory. Whether a card fails or not is directly dependent on how this controller operates and what failures it is programmed to circumvent. As all those safeguards potentially take processing time on the card, expect high-speed cheap cards to have suckier controllers that don't perform 100% on-the-fly checks. Now as this is a market economy we are talking about, there are bound to be cheaper less complicated (or just older) controllers out there that the cheaper cards use, with luck that should never be a problem for an end user but if that controller is slower and there are errors to be corrected and the camera cuts power to the card too quickly when powered off - anything could happen. I am using SSDs in all my computers and there the problem is way more pronounced because of the frequent random writes. It happens that a drive is put on market with defective firmware and because of the frequent writes the users see the problem already in a couple months. SSDs usually have user-upgradeable firmware that can at least partly solve the problems. SDs don't have user-upgradeable firmware so if you put a substandard card on the market users will probably start experiencing issues in a couple years - when nobody can do a thing about it. Another question I'd like to ask - how many read/write cycles there has to be made before a certain location on the card becomes flaky? I mean what is card's MTBF? You see, I still have that 1GB SD card (SanDisk) that I bought back in 2006 that still works. My empirical understanding is that several tens of thousands of read/writes don't have significant influence on the card performance. Controllers in modern cards are designed so as to balance writes across the card. That coupled with good error detection and correction routines should make the card last forever under normal load. That is assuming normal error rate. Could happen that the memory on the cards is produced from crappy materials or shipped with some obvious faults (like the first batch of K-5 sensors) - that makes this discussion a purely theoretical one, we have no knowledge of what quality materials are used for which cards Boris kris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 3/15/2011 11:29 AM, Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: SD cards have controllers inside as well. This is hard data from an Apacer datasheet of 2005: The SD Memory Card includes an intelligent controller that manages interfaced protocols and data storage and retrieval as well as Error Correction Code (ECC) algorithms, defect handling and diagnostics, power management and Content Protection for Recordable Media related functions. I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. Controllers in modern cards are designed so as to balance writes across the card. That coupled with good error detection and correction routines should make the card last forever under normal load. That is assuming normal error rate. Could happen that the memory on the cards is produced from crappy materials or shipped with some obvious faults (like the first batch of K-5 sensors) - that makes this discussion a purely theoretical one, we have no knowledge of what quality materials are used for which cards So, it effectively implies that using brand names such as SanDisk or Lexar is a good idea even if their cards cost somewhat more than those produced by second tier manufacturers... That is, it is equivalent to hope or belief that SanDisk has ability and inclination to invest in proper RD, QA and QC so as to roll out quality products to market... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
Controllers in modern cards are designed so as to balance writes across the card. That coupled with good error detection and correction routines should make the card last forever under normal load. That is assuming normal error rate. Could happen that the memory on the cards is produced from crappy materials or shipped with some obvious faults (like the first batch of K-5 sensors) - that makes this discussion a purely theoretical one, we have no knowledge of what quality materials are used for which cards So, it effectively implies that using brand names such as SanDisk or Lexar is a good idea even if their cards cost somewhat more than those produced by second tier manufacturers... That is, it is equivalent to hope or belief that SanDisk has ability and inclination to invest in proper RD, QA and QC so as to roll out quality products to market... Boris We can hope :) The lifetime warranty some card manufacturers offer should be an indication that they really do try to provide a superior product but that doesn't necessarily mean that the same product is not available from other manufacturers cheaper - could be they are using the same components off the same production line anyway. kris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 3:23 AM, Tim Bray wrote: I've never seen that, but my first suspicion would be the SD card starting to go flaky. -T I second that. Haven't had an image that was damaged by the camera since *istD and 2004. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 13, 2011, at 8:02 PM, Jeffery Johnson wrote: Also if by chance you have other software see if you can bring up the images using it and also you may want to replace the SD card just in case it is getting ready to go bad. Someone else may be able to fully answer this but you may also try to check the card for any bad sectors by doing a defrag on it. I am not sure if one can do this or not this is why I state perhaps someone that has done it can answer if it is possible to do it or not. Thanks, Jeffery. Also to David, Tim, and Boris. I don't have a card reader. I import directly from the camera via USB cable. Could I check the card while it's in the camera? Could I use Mac's Disk Utility? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 3:55 PM, Eric Weir wrote: I don't have a card reader. I import directly from the camera via USB cable. Could I check the card while it's in the camera? Could I use Mac's Disk Utility? Eric, it may be a good reason and good time to buy a card reader. They are inexpensive. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 14, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: Eric, it may be a good reason and good time to buy a card reader. They are inexpensive. Thanks, Boris. I've been holding out for the moment when I can afford to upgrade my MacBook to one with the card reader built in. Maybe it's time to go ahead and get a reader. Doesn't look like I'm going to be upgrading my computer soon. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 4:23 PM, Eric Weir wrote: Thanks, Boris. I've been holding out for the moment when I can afford to upgrade my MacBook to one with the card reader built in. Maybe it's time to go ahead and get a reader. Doesn't look like I'm going to be upgrading my computer soon. Reasonable universal readers cost like $10-$15 here. I am sure it is even less across the ocean. No need to buy a new Mercedes in order to wrap into it a CD player, you know. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 11-03-13 7:41 PM, Eric Weir wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? Or does it indicate there may be something wrong with my camera. I've only ever seen this with a no-name SDHC card in my niece's K-x. Best bet is to use Sandisk or Lexar cards. Be sure and do a full format of your card after grabbing the images off of it. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 3/14/2011 4:34 PM, Bruce Walker wrote: Be sure and do a full format of your card after grabbing the images off of it. Indeed, it seems like a good practice to format a card in the camera every time the images were copied from it to the computer. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Damaged images
Indeed, it seems like a good practice to format a card in the camera every time the images were copied from it to the computer. Boris I am sure every time is a huge overkill. Just using it in a reader that can mount it properly without need for specialized drivers should be enough. I have seen the problem a long time ago with a crappy no-name memory card. Have been using Sandisk memory cards for the past 10 years with no card ever having this problem (and not formatting them ever, not even the recommended first format in-camera). kris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: Indeed, it seems like a good practice to format a card in the camera every time the images were copied from it to the computer. Boris I am sure every time is a huge overkill. Just using it in a reader that can mount it properly without need for specialized drivers should be enough. I have seen the problem a long time ago with a crappy no-name memory card. Have been using Sandisk memory cards for the past 10 years with no card ever having this problem (and not formatting them ever, not even the recommended first format in-camera). Not difficult to believe. However, I keep formatting cards all the time just because it's the easier quicker way to delete all pics after having them transferred to the computer. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
It may be more important to get a new card than a new reader. -Tim On Mar 14, 2011 6:58 AM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: On Mar 13, 2011, at 8:02 PM, Jeffery Johnson wrote: Also if by chance you have other software see if you can bring up the images using it and also you may want to replace the SD card just in case it is getting ready to go bad. Someone else may be able to fully answer this but you may also try to check the card for any bad sectors by doing a defrag on it. I am not sure if one can do this or not this is why I state perhaps someone that has done it can answer if it is possible to do it or not. Thanks, Jeffery. Also to David, Tim, and Boris. I don't have a card reader. I import directly from the camera via USB cable. Could I check the card while it's in the camera? Could I use Mac's Disk Utility? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 11-03-14 10:58 AM, Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: Indeed, it seems like a good practice to format a card in the camera every time the images were copied from it to the computer. Boris I am sure every time is a huge overkill. Just using it in a reader that can mount it properly without need for specialized drivers should be enough. I have seen the problem a long time ago with a crappy no-name memory card. Have been using Sandisk memory cards for the past 10 years with no card ever having this problem (and not formatting them ever, not even the recommended first format in-camera). kris Yes, I meant to qualify my own advice with once in a while or when it causes trouble. Formatting it every time is, I believe, a bit overkill, especially if you're using good cards to begin with. But formatting may (although it's no guarantee) repair a glitch in an iffy card and let you continue using it. But that's not own personal preference. I would be mightily pissed off if a cheapo SD card ate my hard-won images. I figure it's cheap insurance to invest in good cards. I only have Sandisk Extreme III cards and I've never lost a single image due to card troubles. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 14, 2011, at 10:28 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: Reasonable universal readers cost like $10-$15 here. I am sure it is even less across the ocean. No need to buy a new Mercedes in order to wrap into it a CD player, you know. Yeah, kinda silly. We humans are prone to that, more than we like to acknowledge -- or are aware of. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 14, 2011, at 10:58 AM, Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: I am sure every time is a huge overkill. Just using it in a reader that can mount it properly without need for specialized drivers should be enough. I have seen the problem a long time ago with a crappy no-name memory card. Have been using Sandisk memory cards for the past 10 years with no card ever having this problem (and not formatting them ever, not even the recommended first format in-camera). Thanks, Kris. Good to know. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 14, 2011, at 10:34 AM, Bruce Walker wrote: On 11-03-13 7:41 PM, Eric Weir wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? Or does it indicate there may be something wrong with my camera. I've only ever seen this with a no-name SDHC card in my niece's K-x. Best bet is to use Sandisk or Lexar cards. Be sure and do a full format of your card after grabbing the images off of it. Thanks, Bruce. I've got two Lexars and a Kodak. This one was a Lexar. I've been formatting after every export. I ran the Mac Disk Utility's verify and repair functions on the card and got this report: Verify and Repair volume “NO NAME” ** /dev/disk1s1 ** Phase 1 - Preparing FAT ** Phase 2 - Checking Directories ** Phase 3 - Checking for Orphan Clusters 3 files, 3913600 KiB free (122300 clusters) Volume repair complete. Updating boot support partitions for the volume as required. I was able to record an image afterwards, so I guess I didn't do any damage to the card. My not particularly sophisticated take on the result is that no problems were found. Corrections of my understanding if in order welcome. Regards, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 14, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: On 3/14/2011 4:34 PM, Bruce Walker wrote: Be sure and do a full format of your card after grabbing the images off of it. Indeed, it seems like a good practice to format a card in the camera every time the images were copied from it to the computer. Thanks, Boris -- and Bruce again. I do that. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
But formatting may (although it's no guarantee) repair a glitch in an iffy card and let you continue using it. -bmw Some facts and common sense: SD memory is NAND flash which means the following things: 1) manufacturers ship it with errors already on the chip; 2) it deteriorates over time (with write/delete cycles); 3) it contains software and hardware to detect new errors on the fly and record information about the bad blocks; 4) said software isolates the card from the outside world - no program writes directly to the free space on the card. What formatting these does should be exactly nothing (or equivalent to deleting files) but formatting is done with a piece of software on the host computer (or camera) and therefore can introduce more writes/deletes than necessary. What people formatting cards usually think is that the whole card will be writeen full of zeros - which - although thankfully not the case - is actually what you don't want to do - ever (because of the wear and tear). Now whether cards become bad with time or not is mostly dependant on the hardware/software controller on the card itself - depending on how good it is at choosing places to write files and how good it is at marking the bad spots on the card - the card could either die very fast or live practically forever. So what card you buy really matters. Usage - whether you write large volumes of data or routinely format the card with a formatting tool that comes with your operating system and was never intended for formatting flash memory - comes second. With luck the controller on the card can deal with your formatting tool and fool it into thinking that the card has been formatted - although if we look at an empty card that you are formatting to the same file system it already has and with the same options, there should be no writes at all. So what this all comes down to is: if it aint broken, don't fix it. If it breaks, pray to god that you can actually do anything about it - chances are you can't - at least formatting can only stumble upon errors in a very limited space at the beginning of the card - and is very much like a blind man trying to walk into the only tree that's in the middle of a very large field. kris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 2011-03-13 17:41 , Eric Weir wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? for me it happens approximately once per 10,000 images; it's annoying, but so infrequent that it doesn't trouble me greatly; i have a Transcend class 6 and an ADATA class 10, both 8 GB and both in steady use for about two years i am not a member of the buy only Sandisk club -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
2011/3/14 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: I've never seen that, but my first suspicion would be the SD card starting to go flaky. -T I second that. Haven't had an image that was damaged by the camera since *istD and 2004. I had an issue with one particular card inside an OptioS in 2005. It was while visiting Boris in Israel, too. Maybe he's got something contagious in the air or something. :-) -But never had a problem with any DSLRs or cards. The *istD use CF cards, btw. Dunno if that makes any difference to the tech involved. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 11-03-14 4:25 PM, Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: But formatting may (although it's no guarantee) repair a glitch in an iffy card and let you continue using it. -bmw Some facts and common sense: SD memory is NAND flash which means the following things: 1) manufacturers ship it with errors already on the chip; 2) it deteriorates over time (with write/delete cycles); 3) it contains software and hardware to detect new errors on the fly and record information about the bad blocks; 4) said software isolates the card from the outside world - no program writes directly to the free space on the card. What formatting these does should be exactly nothing (or equivalent to deleting files) but formatting is done with a piece of software on the host computer (or camera) and therefore can introduce more writes/deletes than necessary. What people formatting cards usually think is that the whole card will be writeen full of zeros - which - although thankfully not the case - is actually what you don't want to do - ever (because of the wear and tear). Now whether cards become bad with time or not is mostly dependant on the hardware/software controller on the card itself - depending on how good it is at choosing places to write files and how good it is at marking the bad spots on the card - the card could either die very fast or live practically forever. So what card you buy really matters. Usage - whether you write large volumes of data or routinely format the card with a formatting tool that comes with your operating system and was never intended for formatting flash memory - comes second. With luck the controller on the card can deal with your formatting tool and fool it into thinking that the card has been formatted - although if we look at an empty card that you are formatting to the same file system it already has and with the same options, there should be no writes at all. So what this all comes down to is: if it aint broken, don't fix it. If it breaks, pray to god that you can actually do anything about it - chances are you can't - at least formatting can only stumble upon errors in a very limited space at the beginning of the card - and is very much like a blind man trying to walk into the only tree that's in the middle of a very large field. kris Kris, I wouldn't call that a rant, nor do I disagree with any of your facts and sense. One point though: when most modern OSes format a FAT block device, they simply create a new empty directory structure without touching anything else; the so-called Fast Format. Only a few writes are done, so not too hazardous to the overall device write allowance. Not too much different from del *.* in fact. Now if a bad block is discovered on your Flash device while trying to read the directory structure, I assume that the bad block will immediately be remapped, but the damage is already done. Not physically damaged of course, but files could appear to be unreadable, contain holes, etc. The fix is to format the card and that will replace the directory structure. Life goes on. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 2011-03-14 14:25 , Krisjanis Linkevics wrote: What formatting these does should be exactly nothing (or equivalent to deleting files) but formatting is done with a piece of software on the host computer (or camera) and therefore can introduce more writes/deletes than necessary. What people formatting cards usually think is that the whole card will be writeen full of zeros - which - although thankfully not the case - is actually what you don't want to do - ever (because of the wear and tear). i'm with you on this Kris; these days on hard disks as well formatting usually just clears the catalog unless you do a security erase; it's not like the low-level formatting of yore, and it is pretty unnecessary; i format only a few times a year, in the camera, which at a best case would clear any bad pointers in the catalog; i don't expect it to improve a card in any way -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 2011-03-14 14:54 , Bruce Walker wrote: Now if a bad block is discovered on your Flash device while trying to read the directory structure, I assume that the bad block will immediately be remapped, but the damage is already done. Not physically damaged of course, but files could appear to be unreadable, contain holes, etc. The fix is to format the card and that will replace the directory structure. Life goes on. formatting won't fix a bad block, the image file that is thus damaged should just be deleted -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:29 PM, steve harley wrote: for me it happens approximately once per 10,000 images; it's annoying, but so infrequent that it doesn't trouble me greatly; i have a Transcend class 6 and an ADATA class 10, both 8 GB and both in steady use for about two years Thanks, Steve. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:52 PM, AlunFoto wrote: The *istD use CF cards, btw CF? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:52 PM, AlunFoto wrote: The *istD use CF cards, btw CF? Choose among Carbon Fiber, Compact Flash and Cute Fuck :-) Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
Dario Bonazza wrote: Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:52 PM, AlunFoto wrote: The *istD use CF cards, btw CF? Choose among Carbon Fiber, Compact Flash and Cute Fuck :-) I apologize, let's make it: Choose among Carbon Fiber, Compact Flash and Cute F**k :-) Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Krisjanis Linkevics But formatting may (although it's no guarantee) repair a glitch in an iffy card and let you continue using it. -bmw Some facts and common sense: I'm sorry, but you're going to have to unsubscribe now. [...] -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Krisjanis Linkevics But formatting may (although it's no guarantee) repair a glitch in an iffy card and let you continue using it. -bmw Some facts and common sense: I'm sorry, but you're going to have to unsubscribe now. If only I format my CF and SD cards after every download. I am still using CF cards i bought back in 2001-2002 when i bought my D1. No issues so far doing it , this way. Dave [...] -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 11-03-14 5:21 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-14 14:54 , Bruce Walker wrote: Now if a bad block is discovered on your Flash device while trying to read the directory structure, I assume that the bad block will immediately be remapped, but the damage is already done. Not physically damaged of course, but files could appear to be unreadable, contain holes, etc. The fix is to format the card and that will replace the directory structure. Life goes on. formatting won't fix a bad block, the image file that is thus damaged should just be deleted Steve, I didn't say that. I said that formatting would fix a screwed-up directory structure (and/or files) caused by their having been a bad block in the directory structure itself. The odds of that happening are relatively high because the directory structure is updated for very many file operations, like opening and closing them. Once you have a corrupted directory structure, formatting is about your only recourse. (Well there's chkdsk /f or the Mac's Diskutil, but we won't go there.) -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 02:29:27PM -0600, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-13 17:41 , Eric Weir wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? for me it happens approximately once per 10,000 images; it's annoying, but so infrequent that it doesn't trouble me greatly; i have a Transcend class 6 and an ADATA class 10, both 8 GB and both in steady use for about two years i am not a member of the buy only Sandisk club Nor am I. I've used Transcend SD cards exclusively in my K10D. I've never seen an error. Of course I don't have tens of thousands of images, either, so my experience doesn't contradict the above estimate. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 09:52:39PM +0100, AlunFoto wrote: 2011/3/14 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: I've never seen that, but my first suspicion would be the SD card starting to go flaky. -T I second that. Haven't had an image that was damaged by the camera since *istD and 2004. I had an issue with one particular card inside an OptioS in 2005. It was while visiting Boris in Israel, too. Maybe he's got something contagious in the air or something. :-) -But never had a problem with any DSLRs or cards. The *istD use CF cards, btw. Dunno if that makes any difference to the tech involved. Jostein It certainly did in my case - I was using microdrives :-) Eventually the price of 2GB CF cards came down to something reasonable, so I bought a couple (Kingston, IIRC). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 11-03-14 8:52 PM, John Francis wrote: On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 02:29:27PM -0600, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-13 17:41 , Eric Weir wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? for me it happens approximately once per 10,000 images; it's annoying, but so infrequent that it doesn't trouble me greatly; i have a Transcend class 6 and an ADATA class 10, both 8 GB and both in steady use for about two years i am not a member of the buy only Sandisk club Nor am I. I've used Transcend SD cards exclusively in my K10D. I've never seen an error. Of course I don't have tens of thousands of images, either, so my experience doesn't contradict the above estimate. Apparently I am a member of the Sandisk club. :) Three 4GB cards in steady use for 3 years. I have upwards of 25K images. Nary a damaged one. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 2011-03-14 18:37 , Bruce Walker wrote: On 11-03-14 5:21 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-14 14:54 , Bruce Walker wrote: Now if a bad block is discovered on your Flash device while trying to read the directory structure, I assume that the bad block will immediately be remapped, but the damage is already done. Not physically damaged of course, but files could appear to be unreadable, contain holes, etc. The fix is to format the card and that will replace the directory structure. Life goes on. formatting won't fix a bad block, the image file that is thus damaged should just be deleted Steve, I didn't say that. I said that formatting would fix a screwed-up directory structure (and/or files) caused by their having been a bad block in the directory structure itself. The odds of that happening are relatively high because the directory structure is updated for very many file operations, like opening and closing them. makes more sense when you say it that way -- it sounded like a different claim when i read contain holes (i.e. the remapped block is in a file) followed by the fix is to format -- yes, some blocks used for the directory are written fairly often (though not necessarily when opening a file) of course reformatting frequently will increase the number of writes of those directory blocks, and thus wear those blocks out even faster -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
On 11-03-14 4:29 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-13 17:41 , Eric Weir wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? for me it happens approximately once per 10,000 images; it's annoying, but so infrequent that it doesn't trouble me greatly As one in ten thousand is roughly my keeper rate, I'd find that unacceptable as with my luck the damaged image would have been my keeper. ;-) -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: formatting SD flash memory (rant) - was RE: Damaged images
On 11-03-14 9:07 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-14 18:37 , Bruce Walker wrote: On 11-03-14 5:21 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-14 14:54 , Bruce Walker wrote: Now if a bad block is discovered on your Flash device while trying to read the directory structure, I assume that the bad block will immediately be remapped, but the damage is already done. Not physically damaged of course, but files could appear to be unreadable, contain holes, etc. The fix is to format the card and that will replace the directory structure. Life goes on. formatting won't fix a bad block, the image file that is thus damaged should just be deleted Steve, I didn't say that. I said that formatting would fix a screwed-up directory structure (and/or files) caused by their having been a bad block in the directory structure itself. The odds of that happening are relatively high because the directory structure is updated for very many file operations, like opening and closing them. makes more sense when you say it that way -- it sounded like a different claim when i read contain holes (i.e. the remapped block is in a file) followed by the fix is to format -- yes, some blocks used for the directory are written fairly often (though not necessarily when opening a file) of course reformatting frequently will increase the number of writes of those directory blocks, and thus wear those blocks out even faster Yeah, exactly, which is one reason why I don't habitually format; I just erase the images. But these cards are quite smart and vastly improved over earlier Flash tech. As blocks wear out they are remapped to other unused blocks. Over time the card just appears to have reduced capacity. So overall you'll get much better lifetime out of them than earlier generations would have provided. I don't think the 10K write cycles thing is much of a real issue for average users anymore. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Damaged images
In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? Or does it indicate there may be something wrong with my camera. Thanks, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
It's rare, but it does happen. On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? Or does it indicate there may be something wrong with my camera. Thanks, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Damaged images
Also if by chance you have other software see if you can bring up the images using it and also you may want to replace the SD card just in case it is getting ready to go bad. Someone else may be able to fully answer this but you may also try to check the card for any bad sectors by doing a defrag on it. I am not sure if one can do this or not this is why I state perhaps someone that has done it can answer if it is possible to do it or not. -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Eric Weir Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 6:42 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Damaged images In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? Or does it indicate there may be something wrong with my camera. Thanks, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Damaged images
I've never seen that, but my first suspicion would be the SD card starting to go flaky. -T On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: In my last shooting episode there were two images that the camera could not display. After the import LR displayed a message indicating that there were two images that were unsupported or damaged. Should I expect this kind of thing occasionally? Or does it indicate there may be something wrong with my camera. Thanks, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
