Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 2011-02-28 02:38 , David Mann wrote: I'm surprised noone has mentioned the documentary Food, Inc. [...] But chicken and pigs are a different story and we're much more careful about what we buy. i've been semi-veg (no red meat) for about 30 years, semi-locavore/urban homesteader for half that time; Food, Inc. still surprised me, and made me even more picky about when i will eat any fowl speaking of follies, have you heard about the folks who trademarked urban homestead and variants -- they then set about using the DMCA (speaking of follies) to shut down Facebook pages of assorted bona fide users of the trademarked term (despite the fact that trademarks, distinct from copyrights, aren't eligible for DMCA protection); one page that was shut down belongs to Denver Urban Homesteading, a business in my neighborhood owned by a friend of mine http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/02/riding-fences-urban-homestead-trademark-complaints -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Feb 28, 2011, at 1:42 AM, frank theriault wrote: I wonder why there are those in the agricultural business who are afraid that the public see what goes on at their farms? Actually, that was a rhetorical question. I know exactly why: because much of what happens at large agribusiness animal factories (because that's what they are) would sicken us. If we buy meat or eggs or dairy from any supermarket, we're buying produce from animals that have been horribly mistreated and lived short, miserable lives as economic units. Even if we buy free range eggs or chicken, it's unlikely that the animal that produced your food has ever seen the light of day. I'm surprised noone has mentioned the documentary Food, Inc. If I lived in the USA, the first half would have turned me vegetarian and the second half would have had me packing my bags. Our sheep and cattle farms are pretty much universally free-range and grass-fed, as they should be (but I will not make grandiose claims about some dairy farming practices). But chicken and pigs are a different story and we're much more careful about what we buy. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
David Mann wrote: On Feb 28, 2011, at 1:42 AM, frank theriault wrote: I wonder why there are those in the agricultural business who are afraid that the public see what goes on at their farms? Actually, that was a rhetorical question. I know exactly why: because much of what happens at large agribusiness animal factories (because that's what they are) would sicken us. If we buy meat or eggs or dairy from any supermarket, we're buying produce from animals that have been horribly mistreated and lived short, miserable lives as economic units. Even if we buy free range eggs or chicken, it's unlikely that the animal that produced your food has ever seen the light of day. I'm surprised noone has mentioned the documentary Food, Inc. If I lived in the USA, the first half would have turned me vegetarian and the second half would have had me packing my bags. I think some people couldn't bear watching it. I did watch it.. and was heartened, at least, by the farmer who really does the humane and free range thing somewhere here fairly near (I think) where Steve D lives. The market near me only gets its lamb from New Zealand . But I have to say I buy chicken when the price is right only - but poach it for about 3 to 4 hours. I'm hoping it wasn't getting filled with drugs. ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 28/02/2011 02:31, William Robb wrote: On 27/02/2011 11:01 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Bob, We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. Shoot, Shovel, Shut up was, IIRC, the mantra of the day a few years ago. The French term for BSE was, allegedly, JCB. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of mike wilson We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. Shoot, Shovel, Shut up was, IIRC, the mantra of the day a few years ago. The French term for BSE was, allegedly, JCB. Nah, they turned it into a delicacy and sold it back to us as cervelle de boeuf pochée à la folie anglaise. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Mar 1, 2011, at 3:43 AM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: The market near me only gets its lamb from New Zealand. Good stuff, isn't it? The big concern we have now is food miles as it's something we can't really do anything about. But I have to say I buy chicken when the price is right only - but poach it for about 3 to 4 hours. I'm hoping it wasn't getting filled with drugs. We don't eat a lot of chicken but when we're doing a roast we'll always get an organic free-range one. Since it's only once in a while we may as well spend the extra cash for a much nicer meal and a bird that had a better life. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 28/02/2011 23:21, Bob W wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of mike wilson We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. Shoot, Shovel, Shut up was, IIRC, the mantra of the day a few years ago. The French term for BSE was, allegedly, JCB. Nah, they turned it into a delicacy and sold it back to us as cervelle de boeuf pochée à la folie anglaise. B Nom d'un chein! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner lizmaso...@bellsouth.net wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm For some reason I keep getting drawn back to this (and your blog post). I woke up in the middle of the night and lie in bed thinking about things, this issue being one of them. I wonder why there are those in the agricultural business who are afraid that the public see what goes on at their farms? Actually, that was a rhetorical question. I know exactly why: because much of what happens at large agribusiness animal factories (because that's what they are) would sicken us. If we buy meat or eggs or dairy from any supermarket, we're buying produce from animals that have been horribly mistreated and lived short, miserable lives as economic units. Even if we buy free range eggs or chicken, it's unlikely that the animal that produced your food has ever seen the light of day. Many organic farms, or farms that sell locally to (for instance) farmers' markets are pleased to have visitors tour their farms. They tend to be the farms that are like the ma and pa family farms of the days of yore; you know, red barns, silos, farm house on the hill, cattle contentedly grazing in the fields, chickens pecking about the barn-yard. They are pleased to have you know that if you buy meat from them, that their animals live (relatively) happy lives. In fact, it's been proven that meat from happy animals is tastier and healthier! (and here you thought I was going talk about the wonders and glory of veganism!) ;-) So while I posted earlier saying that I wasn't worried about this bill passing, after having slept on it, now I'm not so sure that it won't pass. The agribusiness lobby is huge, with lots of money behind it. Beyond the bill's sponsor, I'm sure they've been courting many other Florida legislators. Too bad that openness and transparency are the first things to go when people feel under attack. I know that a lot of people on this list don't like PETA. While I agree with some of what they do, their in-your-face methods leave me cold. That being said, if they uncover some injustices or show people some inhumane treatment of animals, that would be a good thing, wouldn't it? cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:46 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: it means they die 40% less often than others. If you look closely you'll notice that most cyclists look half dead most of the time. If they look half dead, does that mean that they also look half alive? Does that make them more alive than most other people, who may, for instance look 75% dead and only 25% alive? Here we are looking at least as much alive as dead: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5806/2203/1600/kissena.0.jpg The blurry fellow at the front is me (ironic, no?). It was taken at the outdoor velodrome in Kissena New York in 2005, at my only visit to a velodrome. Sadly, that old aluminium Rossin is now dead, a victim of the crash about a year later that broke my collarbone. cheers, frank ps: I'm actually looking through my blog archives for another photo which will be part of an exciting (to me) announcement. When I saw this I thought it might be fun to post. -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
Frank, It's a stupid bill, but... I enjoy eating animals. I can't taste the difference in organically raised. And I prefer the food safety in the Agribusiness food chain. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:42 AM, frank theriault knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner lizmaso...@bellsouth.net wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm For some reason I keep getting drawn back to this (and your blog post). I woke up in the middle of the night and lie in bed thinking about things, this issue being one of them. I wonder why there are those in the agricultural business who are afraid that the public see what goes on at their farms? Actually, that was a rhetorical question. I know exactly why: because much of what happens at large agribusiness animal factories (because that's what they are) would sicken us. If we buy meat or eggs or dairy from any supermarket, we're buying produce from animals that have been horribly mistreated and lived short, miserable lives as economic units. Even if we buy free range eggs or chicken, it's unlikely that the animal that produced your food has ever seen the light of day. Many organic farms, or farms that sell locally to (for instance) farmers' markets are pleased to have visitors tour their farms. They tend to be the farms that are like the ma and pa family farms of the days of yore; you know, red barns, silos, farm house on the hill, cattle contentedly grazing in the fields, chickens pecking about the barn-yard. They are pleased to have you know that if you buy meat from them, that their animals live (relatively) happy lives. In fact, it's been proven that meat from happy animals is tastier and healthier! (and here you thought I was going talk about the wonders and glory of veganism!) ;-) So while I posted earlier saying that I wasn't worried about this bill passing, after having slept on it, now I'm not so sure that it won't pass. The agribusiness lobby is huge, with lots of money behind it. Beyond the bill's sponsor, I'm sure they've been courting many other Florida legislators. Too bad that openness and transparency are the first things to go when people feel under attack. I know that a lot of people on this list don't like PETA. While I agree with some of what they do, their in-your-face methods leave me cold. That being said, if they uncover some injustices or show people some inhumane treatment of animals, that would be a good thing, wouldn't it? cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote: Frank, It's a stupid bill, but... Yes it is (see, we're agreeing!) ;-) I enjoy eating animals. Yes, I know that. My post wasn't about whether it's ethical to do so. I know your position, you know mine, and we still like each other despite that. ;-) I can't taste the difference in organically raised. First of all, because of silly rules and regulations as to what organic means, it may be a far cry from what most people think it means. About a year before I went vegetarian (which I was for maybe a year before becoming vegan) I saw grass-fed, pasture-raised steak in my local butcher shop. It was visibly different looking from the regular steak right next to it - less brown, more red. It looked good. It was twice the price, but at $10 for the steak I decided to treat myself. I wasn't normally a steak guy in my carnivorous days, but I have to say that was the best steak I ever had. Tasty, succulent, a treat to the palate! I think the issue is more than if something is organic - much of what is called organic comes from the same agribusinesses who produce regular stuff - they just don't add a few things (chemical fertilizer, replaced by manure or whatever) to allow them to legally call the stuff organic. Agribusiness has successfully lobbied regulators so that they can, with a minimum of changes to their procedures, jump on the organic bandwagon. And I prefer the food safety in the Agribusiness food chain. I know you'll disagree with this, but it's huge regional meat processing plants that are the danger here. E-coli or salmonella or any other contaminant that gets into the system of a huge meat processing plant that ships (literally) across the country can spread those contaminants far and wide very quickly and wreak havoc, causing illness and death before sources can be traced. These plants have full-time federal inspectors who simply can't effectively monitor everything that goes on in those huge facilities. One errant cut of an intestine during disembowelment can send poison out to huge areas very quickly. See the Listeria outbreak here in Canada, traced to Maple Leaf foods, one of our largest and most respected agribusinesses: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2008/08/26/f-meat-recall-timeline.html Smaller abattoirs (which are fast disappearing due to federal laws requiring full-time on-site inspectors to be paid by the slaughterhouse) tend to be under less pressure to speed things up, so they have fewer mistakes, and if there is an outbreak, it tends to be smaller, more local, and therefore much easier to trace and deal with quickly. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 27/02/2011 16:18, frank theriault wrote: And I prefer the food safety in the Agribusiness food chain. I know you'll disagree with this, but it's huge regional meat processing plants that are the danger here. E-coli or salmonella or any other contaminant that gets into the system of a huge meat processing plant that ships (literally) across the country can spread those contaminants far and wide very quickly and wreak havoc, causing illness and death before sources can be traced. These plants have full-time federal inspectors who simply can't effectively monitor everything that goes on in those huge facilities. One errant cut of an intestine during disembowelment can send poison out to huge areas very quickly. See the Listeria outbreak here in Canada, traced to Maple Leaf foods, one of our largest and most respected agribusinesses: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2008/08/26/f-meat-recall-timeline.html Smaller abattoirs (which are fast disappearing due to federal laws requiring full-time on-site inspectors to be paid by the slaughterhouse) tend to be under less pressure to speed things up, so they have fewer mistakes, and if there is an outbreak, it tends to be smaller, more local, and therefore much easier to trace and deal with quickly. And that's before you get into the hormones for faster growth and antibiotics as prophylactic side of things. Standard US beef is classified as unfit for human consumption in the UK. We can't even import it to use in pet food. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 10:09 AM, mike wilson m.9.wil...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 27/02/2011 16:18, frank theriault wrote: And that's before you get into the hormones for faster growth and antibiotics as prophylactic side of things. Standard US beef is classified as unfit for human consumption in the UK. We can't even import it to use in pet food. Well, I was trying (unsuccessfully, I fear) to keep things brief. ;-) cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bob Sullivan [...] I can't taste the difference in organically raised. And I prefer the food safety in the Agribusiness food chain. you gotta be kidding! B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
Bob, We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. And don't you think just a 'wee bit' of your import regulations are there to protect your growers? What's the price of beef in the UK anyway? Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bob Sullivan [...] I can't taste the difference in organically raised. And I prefer the food safety in the Agribusiness food chain. you gotta be kidding! B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
Precisely! It's the agri-business beef that was infected with BSE because of all their disgusting practices. The organic stuff was all fine, and whatever I eat (I'm not much of a beef eater anyway) I choose organic when I can, for all sorts of reasons, but food safety is one of them. B Bob, We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. And don't you think just a 'wee bit' of your import regulations are there to protect your growers? What's the price of beef in the UK anyway? Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bob Sullivan [...] I can't taste the difference in organically raised. And I prefer the food safety in the Agribusiness food chain. you gotta be kidding! B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 27/02/2011 18:01, Bob Sullivan wrote: Bob, We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. And don't you think just a 'wee bit' of your import regulations are there to protect your growers? What's the price of beef in the UK anyway? Regards, Bob S. There has never been a single case of BSE in a beef herd, it was all dairy cows. Because, of course, it does not present until the animal is about five years old or more. BSE could be everywhere in the world in beef herds and we would not know it. The UK exports (now that our herding and meat production practices are demonstrably the safest in the western hemisphere) a large percentage of the beef produced here. We don't need to protect our growers from imports because of price, we do it for reasons of public safety. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
From: frank theriault Are they trying to do this, or is this just one guy? In Canada we have government bills and private member bills. Private member bills are tabled by an individual legislator, the other legislators don't have to vote along party lines (in other words it's a free vote) and if the bill doesn't pass, that's the end of it. No repercussions to the government (ie: the party in power). Some 90% of private member bills don't pass because they're usually unimportant pieces of crap that only concern a few squeaky wheels in the sponsoring member's constituency. Why am I meandering on about all this? Because it's my guess that unless things are wildly different in Florida, this bill will never be passed and will die a quiet death on the floor of the legislature. OTOH, it ~is~ Florida, home of Anita Bryant and hanging chads, the place where Gee Dubya won the presidency, so who knows? Seriously, my guess is that we need not get our shorts in a knot over this. Even if it passes, it's doubtful it will survive it's first constitutional challenge in the courts. I'll sleep easy tonight... I expect it's more than one guy. In U.S. state legislature's there is no such distinction between government bills and private member bills. It might pass in whatever chamber of the legislature this guy was elected to and die in the other. It might pass in both chambers and be vetoed by the Governor (if Florida allows the Governor a veto - I think most states do, even if only a weak power to do so). Or it might pass and be signed into law. State legislatures in many states have passed stupider laws than this one. I agree it's highly unlikely to survive a court challenge, but in the interim, until it *IS* overturned ... the denial of civil rights embodied within it could inconvenience quite a few people. And should it actually pass, it won't be challenged and overturned unless people get their shorts in a know over it. The conventional wisdom is the Federal Government is a threat to liberty, but the truth is you really need to keep your eye on the states. That's where the crazies have the power to stab you in the back. And where it's less likely to be noticed in time. One of the major, under appreciated roles the Federal Government plays in our society is restraining State and local government from abrogating the rights of citizens. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:54 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: From: frank theriault snip I'll sleep easy tonight. John said: I expect it's more than one guy. In U.S. state legislature's there is no such distinction between government bills and private member bills. It might pass in whatever chamber of the legislature this guy was elected to and die in the other. It might pass in both chambers and be vetoed by the Governor (if Florida allows the Governor a veto - I think most states do, even if only a weak power to do so). snip Well, as you may see if you read my later posts, in fact I ~didn't~ sleep easy last night, and I changed my mind. It could very easily pass... ;-) cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 08:56:09AM -0600, Bob Sullivan wrote: Frank, It's a stupid bill, but... I enjoy eating animals. As do I. I can't taste the difference in organically raised. I'm not sure what is the major factor, but I sure as hell can tell the difference between the organic, pasture-raised beef/lamb/chicken that I buy and the agribusiness products. And I prefer the food safety in the Agribusiness food chain. That's often illusory. At present it's being used here in California to make it next to impossible for me to buy raw milk - it's off the shelves at Whole Foods, and the only way I can get Claravale Farms products is through a collective. I'd rather not pay the other hidden costs, either. I prefer to get my antibiotics from a doctor, when I need them, and not breed strains of bacteria immune to most treatments. To raise animals in the proximity required by agribusiness the animal feed contains high doses of antibiotics; without that a herd can be ravaged in no time at all. While doses are supposed to be reduced in the period immediately prior to slaughter, the timeframe (and the enforcement) is left up to the businesses themselves - a clear conflict of interest. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 27/02/2011 11:01 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Bob, We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. Shoot, Shovel, Shut up was, IIRC, the mantra of the day a few years ago. Don't test the downers, just shoot em, bury them and go on like as if nothing is wrong. Bob, there is no way in hell that the USA didn't have BSE in it's herds. Europe had it, we had it up here, and you had it down there. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
Bill, I haven't been updated about the situation in 3-4 years. Maybe you are right, but I hope not. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 7:31 PM, William Robb anotherdrunken...@gmail.com wrote: On 27/02/2011 11:01 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Bob, We're not the ones with the Mad Cow problems who had to slaughter all that beef. Shoot, Shovel, Shut up was, IIRC, the mantra of the day a few years ago. Don't test the downers, just shoot em, bury them and go on like as if nothing is wrong. Bob, there is no way in hell that the USA didn't have BSE in it's herds. Europe had it, we had it up here, and you had it down there. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 27/02/2011 7:39 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Bill, I haven't been updated about the situation in 3-4 years. Maybe you are right, but I hope not. Because of the way the North American cattle industry is integrated, if we have a problem, you have a problem. It's really that simple. Canadian ranchers were quite aghast that America seemed to avoid BSE when they knew darned well that it had to be present in American herds. I saw a few videos from American slaughterhouses where downers were being dealt with. While they didn't make it into the food chain, which is all that matters, the disease was as present in American herds as Canadian. I think we only ended up with half a dozen or so reported cases, but it's impossible to know how many Canadian ranchers were following the lead of their American counterparts WRT dealing with downers. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Ann Sanfedele people who cycled to work had an all-cause mortality rate 40% lower than non- cyclists. you mean only 60% of all cyclists ever die? that's it, I'm getting a bicycle. it means they die 40% less often than others. If you look closely you'll notice that most cyclists look half dead most of the time. what about versus people who merely walk? stairway to heaven for the lot of them. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner lizmaso...@bellsouth.net wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Are they trying to do this, or is this just one guy? In Canada we have government bills and private member bills. Private member bills are tabled by an individual legislator, the other legislators don't have to vote along party lines (in other words it's a free vote) and if the bill doesn't pass, that's the end of it. No repercussions to the government (ie: the party in power). Some 90% of private member bills don't pass because they're usually unimportant pieces of crap that only concern a few squeaky wheels in the sponsoring member's constituency. Why am I meandering on about all this? Because it's my guess that unless things are wildly different in Florida, this bill will never be passed and will die a quiet death on the floor of the legislature. OTOH, it ~is~ Florida, home of Anita Bryant and hanging chads, the place where Gee Dubya won the presidency, so who knows? Seriously, my guess is that we need not get our shorts in a knot over this. Even if it passes, it's doubtful it will survive it's first constitutional challenge in the courts. I'll sleep easy tonight... ;-) cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
Legislatures here are not as clear-cut, but it works out about the same. Any legislator can file any bill they want to. They then send a press release to the home folks and are lauded for defending the American way and the right to abuse animals without needing to pay for tall fences to block photographers' views. Meanwhile the leadership of the majority party in that body will decide what is really important. Those bills are given priority in committees, are then given a chance to come forward for a vote. The fluff and nonsense bills are quietly ignored. Sometimes it works the other way around: the leadership has a handful of issues that they intend to bring forward and keep in the spotlight; they may assign authorship of such bills to legislators who need positive publicity on substantive issues prior to the next election. stan On Feb 26, 2011, at 7:46 PM, frank theriault wrote: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner lizmaso...@bellsouth.net wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Are they trying to do this, or is this just one guy? In Canada we have government bills and private member bills. Private member bills are tabled by an individual legislator, the other legislators don't have to vote along party lines (in other words it's a free vote) and if the bill doesn't pass, that's the end of it. No repercussions to the government (ie: the party in power). Some 90% of private member bills don't pass because they're usually unimportant pieces of crap that only concern a few squeaky wheels in the sponsoring member's constituency. Why am I meandering on about all this? Because it's my guess that unless things are wildly different in Florida, this bill will never be passed and will die a quiet death on the floor of the legislature. OTOH, it ~is~ Florida, home of Anita Bryant and hanging chads, the place where Gee Dubya won the presidency, so who knows? Seriously, my guess is that we need not get our shorts in a knot over this. Even if it passes, it's doubtful it will survive it's first constitutional challenge in the courts. I'll sleep easy tonight... ;-) cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
No word on cosponsors yet. It is likely to change drastically before it gets to a vote (if it gets to a vote). This is just one of many crazy bills since 9/11 (from both sides of the aisles) that looks to treat photographers as terrorists. On 2/26/11 6:46 PM, frank theriault knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner lizmaso...@bellsouth.net wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-sena te -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Are they trying to do this, or is this just one guy? In Canada we have government bills and private member bills. Private member bills are tabled by an individual legislator, the other legislators don't have to vote along party lines (in other words it's a free vote) and if the bill doesn't pass, that's the end of it. No repercussions to the government (ie: the party in power). Some 90% of private member bills don't pass because they're usually unimportant pieces of crap that only concern a few squeaky wheels in the sponsoring member's constituency. Why am I meandering on about all this? Because it's my guess that unless things are wildly different in Florida, this bill will never be passed and will die a quiet death on the floor of the legislature. OTOH, it ~is~ Florida, home of Anita Bryant and hanging chads, the place where Gee Dubya won the presidency, so who knows? Seriously, my guess is that we need not get our shorts in a knot over this. Even if it passes, it's doubtful it will survive it's first constitutional challenge in the courts. I'll sleep easy tonight... ;-) cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
On Feb 26, 2011, at 9:46 PM, Bob W wrote: you mean only 60% of all cyclists ever die? that's it, I'm getting a bicycle. it means they die 40% less often than others. If you look closely you'll notice that most cyclists look half dead most of the time. Considering the amount of bikes I own, surely I must be immortal! Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
if you ride them all at once you should get a fair shot at 'David McLeod' 2011/2/27 David Mann d...@multisport.net.nz: On Feb 26, 2011, at 9:46 PM, Bob W wrote: you mean only 60% of all cyclists ever die? that's it, I'm getting a bicycle. it means they die 40% less often than others. If you look closely you'll notice that most cyclists look half dead most of the time. Considering the amount of bikes I own, surely I must be immortal! Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner lizmaso...@bellsouth.net wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Well there goes my weekends then Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 25/2/11, Elizabeth Masoner, discombobulated, unleashed: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida- senate-would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm That's hilarious! Google Earth ! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make, farm photography a felony
Message: 8 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:36:33 -0600 From: Elizabeth Masoner lizmaso...@bellsouth.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farmphotography a felony Message-ID: c98d28a0.1b67%lizmaso...@bellsouth.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Oh great, there goes 90% of my photographs. If this law passed in Fl it would pass in Iowa. Would the the police confiscate my lap top when I crossed the Fl border?? Farms as pornography indeed! I think my posterous will be dedicated to farms barns for awhile. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On 25/02/2011 9:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Did Florida separate from the Union? Doesn't the 1st Amendment of the Constitution trump what some buttfuchs in a pissant State legislature think is a good idea? -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
I would just have to sell my cameras given where I live. Not only can you almost always see a farm but you can usually smell them as well. On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:58 PM, William Robb anotherdrunken...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/02/2011 9:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Did Florida separate from the Union? Doesn't the 1st Amendment of the Constitution trump what some buttfuchs in a pissant State legislature think is a good idea? -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote: I would just have to sell my cameras given where I live. Not only can you almost always see a farm but you can usually smell them as well. Does Blurb do scratch-and-sniff yet? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make, farm photography a felony
From: Elizabeth Masoner Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm I, for one, think it's a good idea. Someone, somewhere, in some state *NEEDS* to pass a law even stupider than North Carolina's old law prohibiting the use of elephants to plow cotton fields. Never could figure that one out. The legislature had no problem with using elephants to plow corn, soybeans or tobacco - just couldn't use 'em for cotton. No longer on the books BTW - repealed in a wholesale housecleaning of obsolete laws back some time in the 1970s or 1980s. I think the law dated from the early (U.S. antebellum era) 19th century, but it might have been nonsense passed during the roaring 20s. Still, if their idiots can be even bigger idiots than our idiots, maybe we'll move down in the search engine rankings whenever anyone ever Googles idiot, so some good will come from it. Other than that ... The real question I have is why are they wasting their time and the taxpayer's money on crap like this. The only good thing about it is it's idiots down in Florida and not North Carolina idiots. The proposed Florida law is an unenforceable violation of the First Amendment and would end up getting thrown out the first time it's challenged in court ... which it should be instantly. But, it's bad form to pass crap like this and put the onus on citizens to defend their rights from the tyranny of fools. It's more of that If it's not mandatory, it should be prohibited kind of thinking; the very kind of government interference in people's lives they claimed they wanted to do away with. I'm surprised the bill makes no reference to fighting terrorism as justification. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3466 - Release Date: 02/24/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would make farm photography a felony
I hope not. Trust me on this. I really love riding my Road King through the Virginia countryside, the occasional olfactory assault of manure is just part of the experience. On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Matthew Hunt m...@pobox.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Steven Desjardins drd1...@gmail.com wrote: I would just have to sell my cameras given where I live. Not only can you almost always see a farm but you can usually smell them as well. Does Blurb do scratch-and-sniff yet? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
From: William Robb On 25/02/2011 9:36 AM, Elizabeth Masoner wrote: Yeah, they really are trying to pass this garbage. http://photography.about.com/b/2011/02/25/bill-introduced-in-florida-senate -would-make-farm-photography-a-felony.htm Did Florida separate from the Union? Doesn't the 1st Amendment of the Constitution trump what some buttfuchs in a pissant State legislature think is a good idea? You've got some control freak in the FL Legislature who's got a bee in his bonnet about PETA. Some big agri-business contributor has a problem and he's trying to show them that he's an *honest politician*. The Constitutionality (or not) of his proposal is irrelevant to his purposes. If passed, it'll get knocked down the first time it's challenged in court, but that's not his concern. FWIW, if you tell people in the U.S. what the Bill of Rights guarantees without telling them where it's coming from; that it's already a part of the Constitution - most of them will tell you you're crazy. More than half the people in the U.S. believe the Supreme Court outlawed prayer in school. [SCOTUS did not - what they they *did*, was tell the State of New York that it could not prescribe a mandatory prayer and require that prayer to be recited every day by every student, i.e. the government could not REQUIRE prayer in school.] - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3466 - Release Date: 02/24/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
FWIW, if you tell people in the U.S. what the Bill of Rights guarantees without telling them where it's coming from; that it's already a part of the Constitution - most of them will tell you you're crazy. More than half the people in the U.S. believe the Supreme Court outlawed prayer in school. [SCOTUS did not - what they they *did*, was tell the State of New York that it could not prescribe a mandatory prayer and require that prayer to be recited every day by every student, i.e. the government could not REQUIRE prayer in school.] there's an interesting story on similar lines of deliberate misconstrual in the weekly email I get from the extremist faction of the CTC, posted here because there's no external link. For reference, the Daily Mail is a right wing 'Little Englander' newspaper, full of vitriolic hatred for foreigners, lefties, feminists, cyclists in lycra, and anything else that doesn't evoke the image of pipe-smoking 1950s Imperial England and a mug of Horlicks. Press leaps to conclusion on heart attack data Medical journal The Lancet has published the findings of a study into the triggers of heart attacks, ranking traffic and pollution midway through their list. The Daily Mail has seized on this to claim that cycling to work causes heart attacks. The newspaper's interpretation of the findings contradicts a previous study from Copenhagen which found that people who cycled to work had an all-cause mortality rate 40% lower than non-cyclists. While The Mail fails to point out that cycling helps prevent heart disease, it also neglects to mention that cycling offers a direct solution to traffic congestion and pollution - which are the trigger factors in question. Cycling England's last briefing on health and cycling is available here. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2810%2962296 -9/fulltext http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1360091/Heart-attacks-Cycling-wor k-biggest-causes.html http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/11/1621 http://www.dft.gov.uk/cyclingengland/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/cyclin g_and_health_full_report.pdf -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: there's an interesting story on similar lines of deliberate misconstrual in the weekly email I get from the extremist faction of the CTC, posted here because there's no external link. For reference, the Daily Mail is a right wing 'Little Englander' newspaper, snip Press leaps to conclusion snip Medical journal The Lancet snip has published that cycling to work causes heart attacks. snip, snippety, snip, snip, snip The world is full of people who have read How to Lie with Statistics and thought it was an instruction manual. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ __o _'\,_ (*)/ (*) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
2011/2/25 Bob W p...@web-options.com: people who cycled to work had an all-cause mortality rate 40% lower than non-cyclists. you mean only 60% of all cyclists ever die? that's it, I'm getting a bicycle. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: sort of off topic - new bill in FL legislature would, make farm photography a felony
eckinator wrote: 2011/2/25 Bob W p...@web-options.com: people who cycled to work had an all-cause mortality rate 40% lower than non-cyclists. you mean only 60% of all cyclists ever die? that's it, I'm getting a bicycle. what about versus people who merely walk? ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
