Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Jan 4, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: Cotty wrote: On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Sounds like someone's on a sabbatical. - Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/03/07 1:12 PM, Adam Maas, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Monarch shot is good, if a little over-saturated. The road and treeline is a fun example of a blue/gold polarizer. The other two are crap. Looking at the tree line and its edge, magic wand was used to make the sky look clear :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:17:37 -, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. As you have yourself often said, most people buy on price, and FF is always going to be substantially more expensive than APS-C. Whatever DPReview and Ken Rockwell say, price will ensure that APS-C remains dominant. I have finally got my hands on a K10D. Wonderful machine. But I got it mainly because I found the D to be too slow when shooting RAW in the studio. The pixel count made no difference. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Forbes Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 3:02 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:17:37 -, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. As you have yourself often said, most people buy on price, and FF is always going to be substantially more expensive than APS-C. Whatever DPReview and Ken Rockwell say, price will ensure that APS-C remains dominant. I have finally got my hands on a K10D. Wonderful machine. But I got it mainly because I found the D to be too slow when shooting RAW in the studio. The pixel count made no difference. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
nelson HAHA! /nelson On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Scott Loveless wrote: On 1/1/07, David J Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is why i have not read a DP review thread in 12 months. i Prefer to ask those actally using the product what its like.:-) This guy has a great website: http://www.kenrockwell.com/ g -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
From: Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 01:55:09 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On 03/01/07, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. I estimate that differential to be about 0.32 Ukrainian Coupons. In other words, about 1/5th of sweet FA. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Thats not the point, of course FF sensor will always cost more than a APS sensor, but if the absolute dollar value difference gets small enough, the APS is not going to be attractive or even feasible EVEN THOUGH IT COSTS LESS, because the benefits of FF will at some point swamp the cost savings of APS if the absolute dollar price difference continues to fall low enough. It's always about customer benefits vs product costs. This is what drives the market. THAT is why 1,2,3, MP PS digicams are nearly all gone, because the small cost savings to stay lo rez arent worth the benefit lost of not having higher rez. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Digital Image Studio Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 8:55 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On 03/01/07, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. I estimate that differential to be about 0.32 Ukrainian Coupons. In other words, about 1/5th of sweet FA. 77mm f1.8 Ltd., that's a sweet FA. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? That's what DSLR users are using now anyway. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Grated, that's why I said at least, yields may be able to be improved (as they have been significantly of late though new wafer cleaning and handling techniques). Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Garbage, I see MF digital as a non-starter for me and a very high percentage of the users here. Apart from the likely price differential over a FF 35mm body the lenses are larger, slower, lower resolution (generally as I have owned and tested quite a few Pentax 645 lenses). I do however have a large collection of FF capable lenses which may or may not vignette significantly. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. I'm afraid that your argument is purely speculative, there is no proof as yet that any Pentax 35mm lenses perform poorly on FF sensors. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Do we need a Ken Rockwell Rule similar to the Newsgroup Nazi Rule? :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm afraid that your argument is purely speculative, there is no proof as yet that any Pentax 35mm lenses perform poorly on FF sensors. The whole thread is purely speculative ;-P I'm not saying never, but currently Pentax seems to be heading in different direction. We will see. As for now, I'm buying both FA and DA lenses, depending on my immediate needs. And for those interested in best quality and high resolution, I'd suggest searching in ebay for 67 and 645 Pentax lenses - prices will soar later this year. And it is much less speculative prediction than the whole FF thingy. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And for those interested in best quality and high resolution, I'd suggest searching in ebay for 67 and 645 Pentax lenses - prices will soar later this year. And it is much less speculative prediction than the whole FF thingy. This assumes that the new company of which Pentax cameras is a but a small part will carry the P645D to production. Now that's speculation. And if you want the best quality and highest resolution in MF lenses, Pentax isn't the be all and end all IMHO. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Do we need a Ken Rockwell Rule similar to the Newsgroup Nazi Rule? :-) Yes, please. There is usually a bit of reservation before comparing someone to Hitler or calling them a Nazi. I imagine Ken Rockwell could be tossed about much more readily. This could end potentially nasty threads very early. On the other hand, if we actually follow the rules (yeah, right), this could make many threads very, very short. And we all like a thread that pokes fun at ol' Ken, don't we? So I've changed my mind. We should definitely not have a Ken Rockwell Rule. I'm gonna go read me an *istDS hands off review. ;) -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy and the huge supply of very good to brilliant existing lenses designed for that format. Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. B. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/02/07 10:46 AM, Bronek Kozicki, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not saying never, but currently Pentax seems to be heading in different direction. We will see. As for now, I'm buying both FA and DA lenses, depending on my immediate needs. It is well known that Canon's lens line up is not particularly digital ready except their EF-S line which is APS-C compatible (smaller image circle). Pentax went through a pain of having to scrap almost entire lens line and now starting from scratch to make all their lenses digital compatible. They are pretty well covering WA range and will slowly move into longer FL, then we might see more DFA lines. When FF ever becomes popular, they can always offer FF WA. I am not sure about this myself but pentax is the only brand which is offering excellent primes in their digital ready lenses while everyone else (DX or EF-S) are all zooms (perhaps Sonyα is offering a couple of ultra expensive CZ lenses?). This tells Pentax is more serious in lining up digital ready lenses than anyone else, satisfying users' needs. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Yes, but it would be violated anyway. (Actually, now I feel violated, I'm off for a shower). Doug Franklin wrote: On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Do we need a Ken Rockwell Rule similar to the Newsgroup Nazi Rule? :-) -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And for those interested in best quality and high resolution, I'd suggest searching in ebay for 67 and 645 Pentax lenses - prices will soar later this year. And it is much less speculative prediction than the whole FF thingy. This assumes that the new company of which Pentax cameras is a but a small part will carry the P645D to production. Now that's speculation. you seem to forgot that the new Hoya Pentax company will launch in October -- I'd be surprised if 645D does not go to market before this date, and I'd be shocked if it is pulled back with no good reason other than merger. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
P. J. Alling wrote: There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy and the huge supply of very good to brilliant existing lenses designed for that format. the point I was trying to make is that alghough these lenses loose their angle of view, they also seem to work better on APS than on FF B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
K.Takeshita wrote: On 1/02/07 10:46 AM, Bronek Kozicki, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not saying never, but currently Pentax seems to be heading in different direction. We will see. As for now, I'm buying both FA and DA lenses, depending on my immediate needs. It is well known that Canon's lens line up is not particularly digital ready except their EF-S line which is APS-C compatible (smaller image circle). Pentax went through a pain of having to scrap almost entire lens line and now starting from scratch to make all their lenses digital compatible. They are pretty well covering WA range and will slowly move into longer FL, then we might see more DFA lines. When FF ever becomes popular, they can always offer FF WA. I am not sure about this myself but pentax is the only brand which is offering excellent primes in their digital ready lenses while everyone else (DX or EF-S) are all zooms (perhaps Sonyα is offering a couple of ultra expensive CZ lenses?). This tells Pentax is more serious in lining up digital ready lenses than anyone else, satisfying users' needs. Ken Canon pretty much expects that anyone who will want primes is going to be shooting FF. Which, given the cost of their high-end primes, is a pretty good bet. EF-S for Canon is primarily a consumer solution and they're never going to introduce a large number of EF-S lenses. It took them long enough to realize that a pro-grade EF-S normal zoom for the 30D would be a good idea (the 17-55 f2.8 IS). Canon has been steadily upgrading their lens line for better performance on digital, but they're essentially committed to FF. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. B. Actually, there is one major reason that 24x36 dominates the larger sensor market. Lens availability. Since that is the traditional 35mm frame size, there's a far larger selection of lenses available than for larger sensor sizes which require use of a Medium Format mount. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:48 AM, Bronek Kozicki wrote: The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whining when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. My feelings exactly. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
I disagree. FF digital format is simply 24x36mm sensor. Its just as valid as APS digital, maybe even more so because the registration distance on most DSLRs today is just a left over from FF body designs so they could use legacy lenses and is not very efficient for the APS format. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Godfrey DiGiorgi Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 1:12 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:48 AM, Bronek Kozicki wrote: The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whining when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. My feelings exactly. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you seem to forgot that the new Hoya Pentax company will launch in October -- I'd be surprised if 645D does not go to market before this date, and I'd be shocked if it is pulled back with no good reason other than merger. I think I'd fall off my chair if they actually manage to deliver the 645D before October (and it's pretty stable). -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have finally got my hands on a K10D. Wonderful machine. But I got it mainly because I found the D to be too slow when shooting RAW in the studio. The pixel count made no difference. John Hah! Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. William Robb :-) -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/1/07, David J Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is why i have not read a DP review thread in 12 months. i Prefer to ask those actally using the product what its like.:-) This guy has a great website: http://www.kenrockwell.com/ g -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. Which is why i have not read a DP review thread in 12 months. i Prefer to ask those actally using the product what its like.:-) Dave William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Equine Photography in York Region -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Scott Loveless wrote: On 1/1/07, David J Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is why i have not read a DP review thread in 12 months. i Prefer to ask those actally using the product what its like.:-) This guy has a great website: http://www.kenrockwell.com/ g -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
