Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Thibouille wrote: Hmm if they do not go for the Sony sensor (which is the current highlight in various speculations) then I'd say 14Mpix. Cypress maybe? I dunno what they are worth, honestly. Or a PentSungYa of some sort ;) But they need to update the K100D as well so why not a combined 12Mpix K200D / 14Mpix offer K1D or something like that? I know 12Mpix10Mpix of the K10D but Canon did the same si what the heck is that really important... The other specs you list are very nice ideed ;) For those who like the MZ-S concept, they might (eve if I beleive they won't ever) use the body but the concept including aperture ring use is of course completely doomed since DA lenses (including DA*) do not have the said aperture ring. My 2 cents... Well, the K100D's competition is still 6MP, but I'd like to see an update nonetheless. A bigger buffer at least (I can't tell you how much less annoying the DS is than the K100D, only due to the decent-sized buffer) since the D40 has a 9 RAW buffer to the K100D's 3. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Oct 19, 2007, at 3:09 PM, Toralf Lund wrote: Possibly with 14bit RAW's Do you think that would be possible? I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in order to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage capacity would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible with the current element sizes even with 0 noise. My take on this: 12 bit vs 14 bit RAW files has more to do with quantization than with charge capacity, which translates to DR. They could quantize the data captured by the current sensor to an 8, 11, 12, or 14 bit representation. The question is whether or not it is useful to do so. Exactly! 12 bits is 4096 discrete energy levels; 14 bits is 16,384. Is there adequate resolution of energy levels in the sensor to make expressing that energy in a larger quantization meaningful? That was essentially the question I was trying to ask. I was saying that based on some papers I've read in the past (but don't have in front of me, or care to search for right now), the answer seems to be no unless *something* has been done to improve the sensor's capacity for storage of energy levels - or if you like, to make room for some extra electrons/electron holes. But actually, I didn't really do any maths when I said that. After doing some quick calculations, I think that there would actually be enough levels for 14 bits, or 15 even - but not 16. You have to consider the noise as well, though. The noise will essentially add random variation to the (theoretical) lower bits from the sensor so that it is not possible to extract useful info about the energy levels from them, and including them in the final output gives no extra value. The number of unusable bits depends on the amount of noise, obviously, but having just 1 bit to throw away may not seem sufficient. In other words, a sensor using the old technology would in fact have enough levels for 14 bits, but such a setup would leave virtually no room for noise. Oh, and if you wanted to know, the papers I mentioned suggested that you can simply assume a storage capacity of 1000 electron/electron holes/energy levels per square micron of sensor area. The assumption is that, given the present sensor, 12 bits is an accurate representation and there is no added value in going to a larger representation. The implication is that a new sensor might have sufficient resolution of energy levels to make a 14 bit quantization an advantage. Improved accuracy is the result, exercising more of that 22bit A-D converter. Maybe increased DR as well, if the imager actually does have additional DR. Godfrey I'm no electrical engineer, I play one on the PDML. - Toralf Me too (I did study at the electrical engineering department, but chose the IT option.) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Adam Maas wrote: Toralf Lund wrote: Adam Maas wrote: Roman Melihhov wrote: I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic expectations, [ ... ] Roman. Good bet? 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native. New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. Possibly with 14bit RAW's Do you think that would be possible? I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in order to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage capacity would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible with the current element sizes even with 0 noise. - Toralf That was me talking about the improved light collecting ability of the sensor. Note the 'good bet' I describe is the Sony 12MP CMOS sensor, which is available in 12 or 14bit forms (the D300 is 14 bit, the Sony A700 is 12 bit). The only real guess there (if Pentax goes for the Sony sensor) I'd actually be surprised if they went for a 12 or 14 bit variant from Sony, or any 3rd party producer, seeing as the K10D has a special A/D converter designed by Pentax. - Toralf -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
On 10/20/07, Toralf Lund [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd actually be surprised if they went for a 12 or 14 bit variant from Sony, or any 3rd party producer, seeing as the K10D has a special A/D converter designed by Pentax. I don't believe they designed the A/D converter. Evidence suggests that it was an off the shelf item from Nucore. Remember the 22bit marketing hype before the K10D was released?: http://www.nucoretech.com/nu3/20_products/tech_backgrounder/ndx-2240_start.html http://www.nucoretech.com/nu3/images/80_downloads/pb_ndx2240.us.pdf Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
On 20/10/2007, David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/20/07, Toralf Lund [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd actually be surprised if they went for a 12 or 14 bit variant from Sony, or any 3rd party producer, seeing as the K10D has a special A/D converter designed by Pentax. I don't believe they designed the A/D converter. Evidence suggests that it was an off the shelf item from Nucore. Remember the 22bit marketing hype before the K10D was released?: Marketing hype?? Please use the correct technical term. Bullsh** Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
On 10/20/07, Peter Fairweather [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 20/10/2007, David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember the 22bit marketing hype before the K10D was released?: Marketing hype?? Please use the correct technical term. Bullsh** LOL Yes well... Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
David Savage wrote: On 10/20/07, Toralf Lund [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd actually be surprised if they went for a 12 or 14 bit variant from Sony, or any 3rd party producer, seeing as the K10D has a special A/D converter designed by Pentax. I don't believe they designed the A/D converter. No, probably not. I didn't choose my wording carefully when I said they did. The point was that they are using an A/D different from the one that's supplied by or recommended the sensor producer, and that's (I think) integrated into the image processing chip - so the sensor variants suggested don't quite seem to fit in. Evidence suggests that it was an off the shelf item from Nucore. Remember the 22bit marketing hype before the K10D was released?: Distinctly... http://www.nucoretech.com/nu3/20_products/tech_backgrounder/ndx-2240_start.html http://www.nucoretech.com/nu3/images/80_downloads/pb_ndx2240.us.pdf Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Not buying, not buying, not... Dave On 10/19/07, Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. And it will make a nice camera paired with the K10D as backup. Paul On Oct 19, 2007, at 6:13 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Good bet? 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native. New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. Possibly with 14bit RAW's and Live View. Hopefully all stuffed into a K10D body (I like the K10D body) Sounds like a good prognostication to me. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Equine Photography www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ Ontario Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Hmm if they do not go for the Sony sensor (which is the current highlight in various speculations) then I'd say 14Mpix. Cypress maybe? I dunno what they are worth, honestly. Or a PentSungYa of some sort ;) But they need to update the K100D as well so why not a combined 12Mpix K200D / 14Mpix offer K1D or something like that? I know 12Mpix10Mpix of the K10D but Canon did the same si what the heck is that really important... The other specs you list are very nice ideed ;) For those who like the MZ-S concept, they might (eve if I beleive they won't ever) use the body but the concept including aperture ring use is of course completely doomed since DA lenses (including DA*) do not have the said aperture ring. My 2 cents... -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
On Oct 20, 2007, at 4:32 AM, Peter Fairweather wrote: On 20/10/2007, David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/20/07, Toralf Lund [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd actually be surprised if they went for a 12 or 14 bit variant from Sony, or any 3rd party producer, seeing as the K10D has a special A/D converter designed by Pentax. I don't believe they designed the A/D converter. Evidence suggests that it was an off the shelf item from Nucore. Remember the 22bit marketing hype before the K10D was released?: Marketing hype?? Please use the correct technical term. Bullsh** I'm not sure what portion of the information that Pentax is using a 22bit A-D converter in the K10D is either marketing hype or horsepucky. They use a higher bit space A-D converter to allow greater accuracy in the transform from voltage to discrete intensity values, it's produces a higher resolution fit to the voltage potentials which are sampled down to the 12 bit output quantization space. What practical value this lends is contributory to the K10D's excellent image qualities and in-camera image processing capabilities. Yes, there's marketing hype associated... but that's assumed. ;-) G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Thibouille wrote: Hmm if they do not go for the Sony sensor (which is the current highlight in various speculations) then I'd say 14Mpix. It is very likely that the K10D will be the last Pentax camera to use a Sony sensor (except perhaps for some lower end models). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Roman Melihhov wrote: I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic expectations, even though it can shake itself shame it still doest do the laundry. At the end it was good tool that does its job well and helps achieving excellence in photography. Now another round, 12Mp? FF? 1.3x 1.25x crop, CMOS? CCD? It is always a photographer who makes good photographs, not the camera, but I'm sure Pentax RD guys are listening. Good captures to all of you this weekend. Roman. Good bet? 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native. New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. Possibly with 14bit RAW's and Live View. Hopefully all stuffed into a K10D body (I like the K10D body) -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
On Oct 19, 2007, at 3:09 PM, Toralf Lund wrote: Possibly with 14bit RAW's Do you think that would be possible? I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in order to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage capacity would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible with the current element sizes even with 0 noise. My take on this: 12 bit vs 14 bit RAW files has more to do with quantization than with charge capacity, which translates to DR. They could quantize the data captured by the current sensor to an 8, 11, 12, or 14 bit representation. The question is whether or not it is useful to do so. 12 bits is 4096 discrete energy levels; 14 bits is 16,384. Is there adequate resolution of energy levels in the sensor to make expressing that energy in a larger quantization meaningful? The assumption is that, given the present sensor, 12 bits is an accurate representation and there is no added value in going to a larger representation. The implication is that a new sensor might have sufficient resolution of energy levels to make a 14 bit quantization an advantage. Improved accuracy is the result, exercising more of that 22bit A-D converter. Maybe increased DR as well, if the imager actually does have additional DR. Godfrey I'm no electrical engineer, I play one on the PDML. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Good bet? 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native. New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. Possibly with 14bit RAW's and Live View. Hopefully all stuffed into a K10D body (I like the K10D body) Sounds like a good prognostication to me. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Adam Maas wrote: Roman Melihhov wrote: I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic expectations, [ ... ] Roman. Good bet? 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native. New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. Possibly with 14bit RAW's Do you think that would be possible? I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in order to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage capacity would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible with the current element sizes even with 0 noise. - Toralf -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Cotty wrote: On 19/10/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: Sounds like a good prognostication to me. Sorta like a wet dream. Nah, it's just the A700 sensor's capabilities, with the possibility of some of the D300/40D features arriving (14bit RAW, Live View). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Roman Melihhov wrote: I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic expectations, even though it can shake itself shame it still doest do the laundry. At the end it was good tool that does its job well and helps achieving excellence in photography. Now another round, 12Mp? FF? 1.3x 1.25x crop, CMOS? CCD? It is always a photographer who makes good photographs, not the camera, but I'm sure Pentax RD guys are listening. Good captures to all of you this weekend. Roman. The camera can be a limiting factor though. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
Toralf Lund wrote: Adam Maas wrote: Roman Melihhov wrote: I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic expectations, [ ... ] Roman. Good bet? 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native. New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. Possibly with 14bit RAW's Do you think that would be possible? I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in order to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage capacity would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible with the current element sizes even with 0 noise. - Toralf That was me talking about the improved light collecting ability of the sensor. Note the 'good bet' I describe is the Sony 12MP CMOS sensor, which is available in 12 or 14bit forms (the D300 is 14 bit, the Sony A700 is 12 bit). The only real guess there (if Pentax goes for the Sony sensor) is the new shutter, but I'd expect they'd want a higher-spec shutter on a semi-pro body, the K10D has a relatively low-end shutter. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
I agree. And it will make a nice camera paired with the K10D as backup. Paul On Oct 19, 2007, at 6:13 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Good bet? 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native. New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. Possibly with 14bit RAW's and Live View. Hopefully all stuffed into a K10D body (I like the K10D body) Sounds like a good prognostication to me. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Interesting times with Pentax
On 19/10/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: Sounds like a good prognostication to me. Sorta like a wet dream. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
