RE: OT: Buyer Beware
Even dealer parts sometimes leave a lot to be desired - a head gasket for a Ford Escort only had cooling holes punched on one side! Led to a very hot engine... John in Brisbane -Original Message- From: PDML On Behalf Of Alan C Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2019 2:45 AM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Buyer Beware After my fiasco, I couldn't agree with you more. The replacement parts I will be receiving tomorrow cost roughly 3x the price of the cheap stuff. Alan C On 15-Apr-19 06:01 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > Ach! I used to love working on engines. But I have no place to do it any > more. Never got tired of it, and still find it a fun endeavor (if sometimes a > lot of work) when I get the chance. > > But my rule of thumb has always been "buy the best parts you can." Cheap > stuff is almost always not worth the discount, with rare exception. > > G > — > "The older I get, the faster I was." > > > > Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Buyer Beware
In the late 80's I had a Chrysler Galant (not sure if there was an American equivalent), small 4-door, manual gearbox vehicle. As I was driving into the sixth floor office car park, I heard a 'ping' noise from under the car and the clutch pedal went down to the floor. Turned out the clutch cable had separated from the gearbox at the gearbox end: result was I got the new part and spent six hours under the car in the dark car park before I could replace it, threading it through the bulkhead and finding it seemed to be 2cms. too short! Like Paul, anything wrong now it goes to the dealer's workshop... I'm too creaky to mess with that sort of stuff now. John in Brisbane -Original Message- From: PDML On Behalf Of Paul Stenquist Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2019 1:02 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Buyer Beware My 1970 Pontiac jumped time in the parking lot of the old underground Coliseum Garage in NY in the early ‘80s. I knew something was wrong when it backfired just before I shut it off. It wouldn’t restart and puffed and wheezed as engines do when the cam is out of time. It would have cost me a fortune to tow it home and even more to have it repaired in Manhattan, so i took off my shirt, borrowed some tools from the Motor Books crew who worked just around the corner in the Hearst building, bought the parts I needed at an old auto parts store in Hell’s Kitchen, went back to the garage, dove under the hood, took the front of the motor apart, replaced the cam gear and timing chain and installed new parts. Worst part was getting under the car to take out the front oil pan bolts. It took the better part of a day to finish the job, so I missed a day of work but saved the car and hundreds of dollars. I was on a salary, so I didn’t get docked, and my boss, the editor of Motor Magazine, a service industry trade publication, applauded my efforts. Today at ’71, I’d bite the bullet and call a repair shop. Too many broken parts on this old body to work that hard. > On Apr 15, 2019, at 10:38 AM, John wrote: > > I've done it with older cars ... before I got older myself. 8^) > > On 4/14/2019 09:19:42, Bulent Celasun wrote: >> I would have never thought about doing such a work myself (at age 60). >> This probably shows that my thinking part aged a lot earlier than >> your muscles and joints. >> Bulent >> - >> http://patoloji.gen.tr >> http://celasun.wordpress.com/ >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bc_the_path/ >> http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2226822 >> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/bulentcelasun >> Alan C , 14 Nis 2019 Paz, 16:03 tarihinde şunu yazdı: >>> >>> My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her >>> 1995 Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. The car has been in the family since >>> new & has been a reliable, economic runner. The cam belt had been >>> replaced at >>> 10 & 20km as recommended but this one failed after only >>> another 75000km. The first 2 replacement cam belts were genuine >>> Hyundai but the third an after market substitute. Strangely enough, >>> I still have the cam belt I removed at 20km & it looks perfectly >>> OK! After stripping it was found that, luckily, the only damage was >>> bent exhaust valve heads on cylinders 1 & 3. (This is an >>> interference engine design). On account of the age of the car I >>> didn't want to spend too much on repairs so I shopped around for the >>> cheapest set of exhaust valves & a head set. >>> First problem - the valve stem oil seals were a loose fit (totally >>> useless) so I had to buy better ones. Second problem: the exhaust >>> valves were such poor quality that 3 of the stems bent when I was >>> installing them in the head using a valve spring compressor. I only >>> noticed the problem after I had re-installed the head & was busy >>> fitting the cam & rockers, 3 of which didn't line up with the valve >>> stems. Back to square one. I will need to buy another good quality >>> set of exhaust valves. I will also buy a top quality head gasket - I >>> don't trust anything cheap any more. I have successfully done many >>> engine overhauls over the years & must say I enjoy this sort of >>> thing but this time, at the age of 75, I find I am suffering all >>> sorts of aches & pains I have never had before, so this will definitely be >>> the last! >>> >>> Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. >>> >>> >>> Alan C >>> >
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
After my fiasco, I couldn't agree with you more. The replacement parts I will be receiving tomorrow cost roughly 3x the price of the cheap stuff. Alan C On 15-Apr-19 06:01 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Ach! I used to love working on engines. But I have no place to do it any more. Never got tired of it, and still find it a fun endeavor (if sometimes a lot of work) when I get the chance. But my rule of thumb has always been "buy the best parts you can." Cheap stuff is almost always not worth the discount, with rare exception. G — "The older I get, the faster I was." Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
Ach! I used to love working on engines. But I have no place to do it any more. Never got tired of it, and still find it a fun endeavor (if sometimes a lot of work) when I get the chance. But my rule of thumb has always been "buy the best parts you can." Cheap stuff is almost always not worth the discount, with rare exception. G — "The older I get, the faster I was." Godfrey -- Godfrey DiGiorgi - godfreydigio...@me.com - 408.431.4601 cell > On Apr 15, 2019, at 7:38 AM, John wrote: > > I've done it with older cars ... before I got older myself. 8^) > >> On 4/14/2019 09:19:42, Bulent Celasun wrote: >> I would have never thought about doing such a work myself (at age 60). >> This probably shows that my thinking part aged a lot earlier than >> your muscles and joints. >> Bulent >> >> Alan C , 14 Nis 2019 Paz, 16:03 tarihinde şunu yazdı: >>> >>> My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 >>> Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. The car has been in the family since new & has >>> been a reliable, economic runner. The cam belt had been replaced at >>> 10 & 20km as recommended but this one failed after only another >>> 75000km. The first 2 replacement cam belts were genuine Hyundai but the >>> third an after market substitute. Strangely enough, I still have the cam >>> belt I removed at 20km & it looks perfectly OK! After stripping it >>> was found that, luckily, the only damage was bent exhaust valve heads on >>> cylinders 1 & 3. (This is an interference engine design). On account of >>> the age of the car I didn't want to spend too much on repairs so I >>> shopped around for the cheapest set of exhaust valves & a head set. >>> First problem - the valve stem oil seals were a loose fit (totally >>> useless) so I had to buy better ones. Second problem: the exhaust valves >>> were such poor quality that 3 of the stems bent when I was installing >>> them in the head using a valve spring compressor. I only noticed the >>> problem after I had re-installed the head & was busy fitting the cam & >>> rockers, 3 of which didn't line up with the valve stems. Back to square >>> one. I will need to buy another good quality set of exhaust valves. I >>> will also buy a top quality head gasket - I don't trust anything cheap >>> any more. I have successfully done many engine overhauls over the years >>> & must say I enjoy this sort of thing but this time, at the age of 75, I >>> find I am suffering all sorts of aches & pains I have never had before, >>> so this will definitely be the last! >>> >>> Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. >>> >>> >>> Alan C >>> -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
On 4/14/2019 13:23:54, mike wilson wrote: On 14 April 2019 at 14:51 David J Brooks wrote: On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:03 AM Alan C wrote: My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. to square Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. I had a 79 GMC Jimmy that developed some bent valve guides which i never got around to fixing until the engine blew and i replaced it with a wrecker engine. I replaced the one side spark plugs weekly and the gas station i went to joked about filling up the oil and checking the gas.:-) Bending the valve _guides_ is pretty spectacular. Diesel engines generally fare much better with snapped belts. Rumour has it around these parts that Renault engines have specific failure points in the rockers, allowing them to snap rather than dislodging the camshaft. Some engines are designed as NON-interference engines. Even though they have designated intervals for replacing the cam belt, the advice I got from the dealer was "Drive it until it breaks. Doesn't cost any more to change it then." -- Science - Questions we may never find answers for. Religion - Answers we must never question. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
On 15/4/19, John, discombobulated, unleashed: >That sounds like an old Chevy I once owned. It only leaked oil when there was >oil in it. Love it. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and || (O) |Live Broadcast News -- _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
On 15/4/19, Paul Stenquist, discombobulated, unleashed: >My 1970 Pontiac jumped time in the parking lot of the old underground >Coliseum Garage in NY in the early '80s. I knew something was wrong when >it backfired just before I shut it off. It wouldn't restart and puffed >and wheezed as engines do when the cam is out of time. It would have >cost me a fortune to tow it home and even more to have it repaired in >Manhattan, so i took off my shirt, borrowed some tools from the Motor >Books crew who worked just around the corner in the Hearst building, >bought the parts I needed at an old auto parts store in Hell's Kitchen, >went back to the garage, dove under the hood, took the front of the >motor apart, replaced the cam gear and timing chain and installed new >parts. Worst part was getting under the car to take out the front oil >pan bolts. It took the better part of a day to finish the job, so I >missed a day of work but saved the car and hundreds of dollars. I was on >a salary, so I didn't get docked, and my boss, the editor of Motor >Magazine, a service industry trade publication, applauded my efforts. >Today at '71, I'd bite the bullet and call a repair shop. Too many >broken parts on this old body to work that hard. Good story Paul. Yep, some have spent many an hour grazing knuckles with hands buried deep in oily recesses of engines - and enjoyed it - but now, the thought of doing it myself actually makes my back ache even thinking about it. Great memories though! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and || (O) |Live Broadcast News -- _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
My 1970 Pontiac jumped time in the parking lot of the old underground Coliseum Garage in NY in the early ‘80s. I knew something was wrong when it backfired just before I shut it off. It wouldn’t restart and puffed and wheezed as engines do when the cam is out of time. It would have cost me a fortune to tow it home and even more to have it repaired in Manhattan, so i took off my shirt, borrowed some tools from the Motor Books crew who worked just around the corner in the Hearst building, bought the parts I needed at an old auto parts store in Hell’s Kitchen, went back to the garage, dove under the hood, took the front of the motor apart, replaced the cam gear and timing chain and installed new parts. Worst part was getting under the car to take out the front oil pan bolts. It took the better part of a day to finish the job, so I missed a day of work but saved the car and hundreds of dollars. I was on a salary, so I didn’t get docked, and my boss, the editor of Motor Magazine, a service industry trade publication, applauded my efforts. Today at ’71, I’d bite the bullet and call a repair shop. Too many broken parts on this old body to work that hard. > On Apr 15, 2019, at 10:38 AM, John wrote: > > I've done it with older cars ... before I got older myself. 8^) > > On 4/14/2019 09:19:42, Bulent Celasun wrote: >> I would have never thought about doing such a work myself (at age 60). >> This probably shows that my thinking part aged a lot earlier than >> your muscles and joints. >> Bulent >> - >> http://patoloji.gen.tr >> http://celasun.wordpress.com/ >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bc_the_path/ >> http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2226822 >> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/bulentcelasun >> Alan C , 14 Nis 2019 Paz, 16:03 tarihinde şunu yazdı: >>> >>> My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 >>> Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. The car has been in the family since new & has >>> been a reliable, economic runner. The cam belt had been replaced at >>> 10 & 20km as recommended but this one failed after only another >>> 75000km. The first 2 replacement cam belts were genuine Hyundai but the >>> third an after market substitute. Strangely enough, I still have the cam >>> belt I removed at 20km & it looks perfectly OK! After stripping it >>> was found that, luckily, the only damage was bent exhaust valve heads on >>> cylinders 1 & 3. (This is an interference engine design). On account of >>> the age of the car I didn't want to spend too much on repairs so I >>> shopped around for the cheapest set of exhaust valves & a head set. >>> First problem - the valve stem oil seals were a loose fit (totally >>> useless) so I had to buy better ones. Second problem: the exhaust valves >>> were such poor quality that 3 of the stems bent when I was installing >>> them in the head using a valve spring compressor. I only noticed the >>> problem after I had re-installed the head & was busy fitting the cam & >>> rockers, 3 of which didn't line up with the valve stems. Back to square >>> one. I will need to buy another good quality set of exhaust valves. I >>> will also buy a top quality head gasket - I don't trust anything cheap >>> any more. I have successfully done many engine overhauls over the years >>> & must say I enjoy this sort of thing but this time, at the age of 75, I >>> find I am suffering all sorts of aches & pains I have never had before, >>> so this will definitely be the last! >>> >>> Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. >>> >>> >>> Alan C >>> > > > > -- > Science - Questions we may never find answers for. > Religion - Answers we must never question. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
On 4/14/2019 09:51:31, David J Brooks wrote: On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:03 AM Alan C wrote: My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. to square Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. I had a 79 GMC Jimmy that developed some bent valve guides which i never got around to fixing until the engine blew and i replaced it with a wrecker engine. I replaced the one side spark plugs weekly and the gas station i went to joked about filling up the oil and checking the gas.:-) Dave That sounds like an old Chevy I once owned. It only leaked oil when there was oil in it. -- Science - Questions we may never find answers for. Religion - Answers we must never question. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
I've done it with older cars ... before I got older myself. 8^) On 4/14/2019 09:19:42, Bulent Celasun wrote: I would have never thought about doing such a work myself (at age 60). This probably shows that my thinking part aged a lot earlier than your muscles and joints. Bulent - http://patoloji.gen.tr http://celasun.wordpress.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bc_the_path/ http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2226822 http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/bulentcelasun Alan C , 14 Nis 2019 Paz, 16:03 tarihinde şunu yazdı: My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. The car has been in the family since new & has been a reliable, economic runner. The cam belt had been replaced at 10 & 20km as recommended but this one failed after only another 75000km. The first 2 replacement cam belts were genuine Hyundai but the third an after market substitute. Strangely enough, I still have the cam belt I removed at 20km & it looks perfectly OK! After stripping it was found that, luckily, the only damage was bent exhaust valve heads on cylinders 1 & 3. (This is an interference engine design). On account of the age of the car I didn't want to spend too much on repairs so I shopped around for the cheapest set of exhaust valves & a head set. First problem - the valve stem oil seals were a loose fit (totally useless) so I had to buy better ones. Second problem: the exhaust valves were such poor quality that 3 of the stems bent when I was installing them in the head using a valve spring compressor. I only noticed the problem after I had re-installed the head & was busy fitting the cam & rockers, 3 of which didn't line up with the valve stems. Back to square one. I will need to buy another good quality set of exhaust valves. I will also buy a top quality head gasket - I don't trust anything cheap any more. I have successfully done many engine overhauls over the years & must say I enjoy this sort of thing but this time, at the age of 75, I find I am suffering all sorts of aches & pains I have never had before, so this will definitely be the last! Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. Alan C -- Science - Questions we may never find answers for. Religion - Answers we must never question. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
> On 14 April 2019 at 14:51 David J Brooks wrote: > > > On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:03 AM Alan C wrote: > > > > My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 > > Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. to square > > > Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. > > I had a 79 GMC Jimmy that developed some bent valve guides which i > never got around to fixing until the engine blew and i replaced it > with a wrecker engine. I replaced the one side spark plugs weekly and > the gas station i went to joked about filling up the oil and checking > the gas.:-) Bending the valve _guides_ is pretty spectacular. Diesel engines generally fare much better with snapped belts. Rumour has it around these parts that Renault engines have specific failure points in the rockers, allowing them to snap rather than dislodging the camshaft. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:03 AM Alan C wrote: > > My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 > Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. to square > Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. I had a 79 GMC Jimmy that developed some bent valve guides which i never got around to fixing until the engine blew and i replaced it with a wrecker engine. I replaced the one side spark plugs weekly and the gas station i went to joked about filling up the oil and checking the gas.:-) Dave > > > Alan C > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
On 14/4/19, Alan C, discombobulated, unleashed: >My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 >Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. The car has been in the family since new & has >been a reliable, economic runner. The cam belt had been replaced at >10 & 20km as recommended but this one failed after only another >75000km. The first 2 replacement cam belts were genuine Hyundai but the >third an after market substitute. Strangely enough, I still have the cam >belt I removed at 20km & it looks perfectly OK! After stripping it >was found that, luckily, the only damage was bent exhaust valve heads on >cylinders 1 & 3. (This is an interference engine design). On account of >the age of the car I didn't want to spend too much on repairs so I >shopped around for the cheapest set of exhaust valves & a head set. >First problem - the valve stem oil seals were a loose fit (totally >useless) so I had to buy better ones. Second problem: the exhaust valves >were such poor quality that 3 of the stems bent when I was installing >them in the head using a valve spring compressor. I only noticed the >problem after I had re-installed the head & was busy fitting the cam & >rockers, 3 of which didn't line up with the valve stems. Back to square >one. I will need to buy another good quality set of exhaust valves. I >will also buy a top quality head gasket - I don't trust anything cheap >any more. I have successfully done many engine overhauls over the years >& must say I enjoy this sort of thing but this time, at the age of 75, I >find I am suffering all sorts of aches & pains I have never had before, >so this will definitely be the last! > >Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. I feel your pain brother - and once built a Rover V8 from scratch so I know what you're talking about! That has a timing chain rather than a belt but my current vehicle, a Freelander 2 is up to 73,000 miles and the cambelt rec is for 150,000. I can tell you now that it won't be anywhere near that when I change it! The only thing I would say is that used cam belts may look absolutely fine, but the nature of the materials changes after so many heat/cool cycles! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__UK Shoot / Edit and || (O) |Live Broadcast News -- _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Buyer Beware
I would have never thought about doing such a work myself (at age 60). This probably shows that my thinking part aged a lot earlier than your muscles and joints. Bulent - http://patoloji.gen.tr http://celasun.wordpress.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bc_the_path/ http://photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=2226822 http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/artists/bulentcelasun Alan C , 14 Nis 2019 Paz, 16:03 tarihinde şunu yazdı: > > My younger daughter had the misfortune of cam belt failure on her 1995 > Hyundai Accent 1.5 csi. The car has been in the family since new & has > been a reliable, economic runner. The cam belt had been replaced at > 10 & 20km as recommended but this one failed after only another > 75000km. The first 2 replacement cam belts were genuine Hyundai but the > third an after market substitute. Strangely enough, I still have the cam > belt I removed at 20km & it looks perfectly OK! After stripping it > was found that, luckily, the only damage was bent exhaust valve heads on > cylinders 1 & 3. (This is an interference engine design). On account of > the age of the car I didn't want to spend too much on repairs so I > shopped around for the cheapest set of exhaust valves & a head set. > First problem - the valve stem oil seals were a loose fit (totally > useless) so I had to buy better ones. Second problem: the exhaust valves > were such poor quality that 3 of the stems bent when I was installing > them in the head using a valve spring compressor. I only noticed the > problem after I had re-installed the head & was busy fitting the cam & > rockers, 3 of which didn't line up with the valve stems. Back to square > one. I will need to buy another good quality set of exhaust valves. I > will also buy a top quality head gasket - I don't trust anything cheap > any more. I have successfully done many engine overhauls over the years > & must say I enjoy this sort of thing but this time, at the age of 75, I > find I am suffering all sorts of aches & pains I have never had before, > so this will definitely be the last! > > Thanks for listening. I feel much better now. > > > Alan C > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
