Re: Recovering damaged prints

[Stanley Halpin]

Thanks John. I did think of that, but too late. Even before I started with my 
restoration attempt it had been soaked and mostly still damp for way too long 
since the event. So the edges, in about 2”, had already lifted from the glass. 
And with only minimal damage to the emulsion which is what made me think I 
might soak for a few hours and the whole print might lift off. 

In all I did leave the print soaking for about 36 hours. Just to see what would 
happen. The print paper itself by that point was gradually decomposing… And 
then I somehow knocked the corner of the glass against my work surface and 
broke off a chunk. So I can’t even scrape the glass clean and reuse that!

Of far greater monetary value were the five First Day Cancellations @ Fort 
Leavenworth of the 1994 Buffalo Soldiers commemorative stamp. Soggy. The three 
blocks-of-four with First-Day cancellations were better protected and probably 
could be considered almost new. 

stan

> On Jul 26, 2017, at 3:01 PM, John  wrote:
> 
> On 7/25/2017 09:17, Stanley Halpin wrote:
>> 
>> Twelve hours on, I have declared the print to be gone. Virtually no
>> additional lifting from the glass. On the edges where it had loosened
>> a bit, the emulsion is gone.
>> 
> 
> For future reference, if you have a print that's stuck to glass, you'd
> probably be better off trying to photograph it using a copy light setup.
> 
> If you've got glare from the glass, it can be reduced by using polarizing
> filters on the lights (both in the same direction) and another polarizing
> filter on the lens.
> 
> I hesitated to suggest this before because your original post said you'd
> already started trying to soak the print off.
> 


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Re: Recovering damaged prints

[John]

On 7/25/2017 09:17, Stanley Halpin wrote:


Twelve hours on, I have declared the print to be gone. Virtually no
additional lifting from the glass. On the edges where it had loosened
a bit, the emulsion is gone.



For future reference, if you have a print that's stuck to glass, you'd
probably be better off trying to photograph it using a copy light setup.

If you've got glare from the glass, it can be reduced by using polarizing
filters on the lights (both in the same direction) and another polarizing
filter on the lens.

I hesitated to suggest this before because your original post said you'd
already started trying to soak the print off.


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Re: Recovering damaged prints

[Stanley Halpin]

> On Jul 25, 2017, at 3:57 AM, P. J. Alling  wrote:
> 
> A couple of important questions are; RC or fiber based paper, and color or 
> B  An old fiber based B print can take a very long time in water, with 
> no ill effects.
> 
> The fiber based paper will allow the water to permeate the emulsion and 
> soften it and probably cause the bond with the glass to release.
> 
> RC paper will only allow water to get to the emulsion from the edges, and the 
> emulsion may well peel from the plastic coated paper substrate rather than 
> the glass.

Yes.

> 
> B paper was expected to spend a fair amount of time in a water wash, with 
> no ill effects.  Color not so much.

True that.

> 
> I don't know how much this helps, but I'd expect good results more likely 
> from soaking in water if it's a B print on fiber based paper.
> 
> 
> On 7/24/2017 10:37 PM, Stanley Halpin wrote:
>> Thanks Paul. Yes, optical, not inkjet. That is what I meant to imply by 
>> “commercial” but I wasn’t clear.
>> stan

Twelve hours on, I have declared the print to be gone. Virtually no additional 
lifting from the glass. On the edges where it had loosened a bit, the emulsion 
is gone.

Meg served in the State Legislature for a while - this print hung on the wall 
behind her desk. Her comment was that she had many good memories of seeing that 
image on entering her office in the mornings, and that she probably has a photo 
of herself at her desk with this shot in the background. So even if I can’t 
find the negative to scan and reprint, the image will live on.

Thanks all for your suggestions.

stan
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Re: Recovering damaged prints

[P. J. Alling]

A couple of important questions are; RC or fiber based paper, and color 
or B  An old fiber based B print can take a very long time in 
water, with no ill effects.


The fiber based paper will allow the water to permeate the emulsion and 
soften it and probably cause the bond with the glass to release.


RC paper will only allow water to get to the emulsion from the edges, 
and the emulsion may well peel from the plastic coated paper substrate 
rather than the glass.


B paper was expected to spend a fair amount of time in a water wash, 
with no ill effects.  Color not so much.


I don't know how much this helps, but I'd expect good results more 
likely from soaking in water if it's a B print on fiber based paper.



On 7/24/2017 10:37 PM, Stanley Halpin wrote:

Thanks Paul. Yes, optical, not inkjet. That is what I meant to imply by 
“commercial” but I wasn’t clear.
stan


On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:30 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:

I'm assuming it's an optical print. If it's an ink jet print it's probably 
toast.

Paul via phone


On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:

You can definitely give it a few hours. I've washed prints that long. I would 
agitate gently every 30 minutes or so.

Paul via phone


On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Stanley Halpin  wrote:

The print in question is an 11x14 color commercially printed favorite of mine - 
taken with P645 one early foggy morning in 1999…

So we had a flood. The garage had water up to 26.5 inches. It would have taken 
27.5 inches for the water from the river to begin flowing on into the house, so 
that was the good news.
But among other items not removed from the garage before the water rose was a 
trunk containing many posters, photo prints, commercial prints (e.g. my 
collection of Byte Magazine cover artwork).
Now that I have cleaned, repaired, or discarded everything else from the 
garage, it is time to start salvaging the artwork.

Some of the prints have been easy. Soak, wash gently, rinse, squeegee, and 
place in a blotter book. Seems to be working. But THE print in question is 
about 80% stuck to the glass from the frame. Yes it was matted, but either the 
mat was too flimsy or it softened too much due to the soaking it received in 
the flood. So the print is stuck to the glass.

I have the glass + print soaking in a large trey. I think/hope eventually the 
print will float off.

So here (at last) is the question: how long can I leave a photographic print to 
soak? Is there some point at which the emulsion will begin to decompose? I 
would rather let it be for a few hours rather than trying to peel it off the 
glass, but I don’t know how long I can wait before I cause more damage.

I may or may not be able to find the negative from which I printed, and I would 
kinda like to salvage and retain the original print…

Thanks for any suggestions!

stan
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Re: Recovering damaged prints

[mike wilson]

If it was that important to me, I would be seeking assistance from a
professional print restorer.  While it is easy to obtain information from the
internet, it can't give you the experiential skills that are furnished by years
in a trade.

> On 25 July 2017 at 01:22 Stanley Halpin  wrote:
> 
> 
> The print in question is an 11x14 color commercially printed favorite of mine
> - taken with P645 one early foggy morning in 1999…
> 
> So we had a flood. The garage had water up to 26.5 inches. It would have taken
> 27.5 inches for the water from the river to begin flowing on into the house,
> so that was the good news.
> But among other items not removed from the garage before the water rose was a
> trunk containing many posters, photo prints, commercial prints (e.g. my
> collection of Byte Magazine cover artwork).
> Now that I have cleaned, repaired, or discarded everything else from the
> garage, it is time to start salvaging the artwork.
> 
> Some of the prints have been easy. Soak, wash gently, rinse, squeegee, and
> place in a blotter book. Seems to be working. But THE print in question is
> about 80% stuck to the glass from the frame. Yes it was matted, but either the
> mat was too flimsy or it softened too much due to the soaking it received in
> the flood. So the print is stuck to the glass.
> 
> I have the glass + print soaking in a large trey. I think/hope eventually the
> print will float off. 
> 
> So here (at last) is the question: how long can I leave a photographic print
> to soak? Is there some point at which the emulsion will begin to decompose? I
> would rather let it be for a few hours rather than trying to peel it off the
> glass, but I don’t know how long I can wait before I cause more damage.
> 
> I may or may not be able to find the negative from which I printed, and I
> would kinda like to salvage and retain the original print…
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions!

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Re: Recovering damaged prints

[Stanley Halpin]

Thanks Paul. Yes, optical, not inkjet. That is what I meant to imply by 
“commercial” but I wasn’t clear.
stan

> On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:30 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> 
> I'm assuming it's an optical print. If it's an ink jet print it's probably 
> toast. 
> 
> Paul via phone
> 
>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>> 
>> You can definitely give it a few hours. I've washed prints that long. I 
>> would agitate gently every 30 minutes or so.
>> 
>> Paul via phone
>> 
>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Stanley Halpin  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The print in question is an 11x14 color commercially printed favorite of 
>>> mine - taken with P645 one early foggy morning in 1999…
>>> 
>>> So we had a flood. The garage had water up to 26.5 inches. It would have 
>>> taken 27.5 inches for the water from the river to begin flowing on into the 
>>> house, so that was the good news.
>>> But among other items not removed from the garage before the water rose was 
>>> a trunk containing many posters, photo prints, commercial prints (e.g. my 
>>> collection of Byte Magazine cover artwork).
>>> Now that I have cleaned, repaired, or discarded everything else from the 
>>> garage, it is time to start salvaging the artwork.
>>> 
>>> Some of the prints have been easy. Soak, wash gently, rinse, squeegee, and 
>>> place in a blotter book. Seems to be working. But THE print in question is 
>>> about 80% stuck to the glass from the frame. Yes it was matted, but either 
>>> the mat was too flimsy or it softened too much due to the soaking it 
>>> received in the flood. So the print is stuck to the glass.
>>> 
>>> I have the glass + print soaking in a large trey. I think/hope eventually 
>>> the print will float off. 
>>> 
>>> So here (at last) is the question: how long can I leave a photographic 
>>> print to soak? Is there some point at which the emulsion will begin to 
>>> decompose? I would rather let it be for a few hours rather than trying to 
>>> peel it off the glass, but I don’t know how long I can wait before I cause 
>>> more damage.
>>> 
>>> I may or may not be able to find the negative from which I printed, and I 
>>> would kinda like to salvage and retain the original print…
>>> 
>>> Thanks for any suggestions!
>>> 
>>> stan
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>>> follow the directions.
>> 
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Re: Recovering damaged prints

[Paul Stenquist]

I'm assuming it's an optical print. If it's an ink jet print it's probably 
toast. 

Paul via phone

> On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:27 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> 
> You can definitely give it a few hours. I've washed prints that long. I would 
> agitate gently every 30 minutes or so.
> 
> Paul via phone
> 
>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Stanley Halpin  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The print in question is an 11x14 color commercially printed favorite of 
>> mine - taken with P645 one early foggy morning in 1999…
>> 
>> So we had a flood. The garage had water up to 26.5 inches. It would have 
>> taken 27.5 inches for the water from the river to begin flowing on into the 
>> house, so that was the good news.
>> But among other items not removed from the garage before the water rose was 
>> a trunk containing many posters, photo prints, commercial prints (e.g. my 
>> collection of Byte Magazine cover artwork).
>> Now that I have cleaned, repaired, or discarded everything else from the 
>> garage, it is time to start salvaging the artwork.
>> 
>> Some of the prints have been easy. Soak, wash gently, rinse, squeegee, and 
>> place in a blotter book. Seems to be working. But THE print in question is 
>> about 80% stuck to the glass from the frame. Yes it was matted, but either 
>> the mat was too flimsy or it softened too much due to the soaking it 
>> received in the flood. So the print is stuck to the glass.
>> 
>> I have the glass + print soaking in a large trey. I think/hope eventually 
>> the print will float off. 
>> 
>> So here (at last) is the question: how long can I leave a photographic print 
>> to soak? Is there some point at which the emulsion will begin to decompose? 
>> I would rather let it be for a few hours rather than trying to peel it off 
>> the glass, but I don’t know how long I can wait before I cause more damage.
>> 
>> I may or may not be able to find the negative from which I printed, and I 
>> would kinda like to salvage and retain the original print…
>> 
>> Thanks for any suggestions!
>> 
>> stan
>> -- 
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Re: Recovering damaged prints

[Paul Stenquist]

You can definitely give it a few hours. I've washed prints that long. I would 
agitate gently every 30 minutes or so.

Paul via phone

> On Jul 24, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Stanley Halpin  
> wrote:
> 
> The print in question is an 11x14 color commercially printed favorite of mine 
> - taken with P645 one early foggy morning in 1999…
> 
> So we had a flood. The garage had water up to 26.5 inches. It would have 
> taken 27.5 inches for the water from the river to begin flowing on into the 
> house, so that was the good news.
> But among other items not removed from the garage before the water rose was a 
> trunk containing many posters, photo prints, commercial prints (e.g. my 
> collection of Byte Magazine cover artwork).
> Now that I have cleaned, repaired, or discarded everything else from the 
> garage, it is time to start salvaging the artwork.
> 
> Some of the prints have been easy. Soak, wash gently, rinse, squeegee, and 
> place in a blotter book. Seems to be working. But THE print in question is 
> about 80% stuck to the glass from the frame. Yes it was matted, but either 
> the mat was too flimsy or it softened too much due to the soaking it received 
> in the flood. So the print is stuck to the glass.
> 
> I have the glass + print soaking in a large trey. I think/hope eventually the 
> print will float off. 
> 
> So here (at last) is the question: how long can I leave a photographic print 
> to soak? Is there some point at which the emulsion will begin to decompose? I 
> would rather let it be for a few hours rather than trying to peel it off the 
> glass, but I don’t know how long I can wait before I cause more damage.
> 
> I may or may not be able to find the negative from which I printed, and I 
> would kinda like to salvage and retain the original print…
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions!
> 
> stan
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Recovering damaged prints

[Stanley Halpin]

The print in question is an 11x14 color commercially printed favorite of mine - 
taken with P645 one early foggy morning in 1999…

So we had a flood. The garage had water up to 26.5 inches. It would have taken 
27.5 inches for the water from the river to begin flowing on into the house, so 
that was the good news.
But among other items not removed from the garage before the water rose was a 
trunk containing many posters, photo prints, commercial prints (e.g. my 
collection of Byte Magazine cover artwork).
Now that I have cleaned, repaired, or discarded everything else from the 
garage, it is time to start salvaging the artwork.

Some of the prints have been easy. Soak, wash gently, rinse, squeegee, and 
place in a blotter book. Seems to be working. But THE print in question is 
about 80% stuck to the glass from the frame. Yes it was matted, but either the 
mat was too flimsy or it softened too much due to the soaking it received in 
the flood. So the print is stuck to the glass.

I have the glass + print soaking in a large trey. I think/hope eventually the 
print will float off. 

So here (at last) is the question: how long can I leave a photographic print to 
soak? Is there some point at which the emulsion will begin to decompose? I 
would rather let it be for a few hours rather than trying to peel it off the 
glass, but I don’t know how long I can wait before I cause more damage.

I may or may not be able to find the negative from which I printed, and I would 
kinda like to salvage and retain the original print…

Thanks for any suggestions!

stan
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